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  1. #76
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    I think the point is though, some people don't want to support IE6, but feel they have to, so the more things like this that happen, the quicker it will go away for everyone!
    What you're saying is the more people support IE6 the quicker it will go away ? That is how it sounds

    If you want it to die, then do your part and stop supporting it on your sites, in the long run maybe it will speed things along to it inevitable demise, or maybe it will just cause IE6 users to no longer visit your sites.
    True, simple enough. Let users know that you're site will work on IE7 and up.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    When I say 'this' I mean Google dropping support, not people supporting it :P

  3. #78
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    why everyone dislike internet explorer 6?i don't think its much worsen than mozilla or other browser

  4. #79
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saymon45645 View Post
    why everyone dislike internet explorer 6?i don't think its much worsen than mozilla or other browser
    Because it is 10 years behind in support of standards plus it has a number of security holes that can only be patched by either upgrading to IE7 or turning off activeX.

    It is the best browser if you are living in 2000 but the worst if you are in 2008 or later.
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    I'm just viewing this thread right now in IE6.
    Dont abuse me

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by saymon45645 View Post
    why everyone dislike internet explorer 6?i don't think its much worsen than mozilla or other browser
    From the point of view of a user, IE6 has a very limited range of functions. Other browsers such as Firefox and Opera can do much, much more, either straight out of the box or by adding extensions, and can be customised to work the way you want them to work. This makes browsing the web a much better and more efficient experience.

    From the point of view of a developer, IE6 is an absolute abomination. It goes against the specifications for basic HTML, for CSS, for Javascript and for basic security and other aspects. This means that if you build anything other than the most trivially simple site, it will take you an immense amount of time to get it to work on both IE6 and everything else.

  7. #82
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie D View Post
    IE6 is an absolute abomination. It goes against the specifications for basic HTML, for CSS, for Javascript and for basic security and other aspects.
    The reason for that is that when IE6 was created it was way ahead of the standards. They implemented everything in the current standard of the time along with what they hoped would be in the next standard. Unfortunately that next standard turned out to be slightly different from what they expected. That still wasn't an issue though while IE6 had 95&#37;+ of the market. The newer standard only started to become actually relevant as more people started using browsers that supported it. Now with IE6 use under 15% the situation has reached the point where spending the extra time required to make web pages look and work the same in IE6 as in standard compliant browsers is perhaps not going to bring in the extra visitors that such work used to. Over the next year or two most sites will decide to drop support for IE6 simply because there are not enough people using it to make it worth all that extra time.
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  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The reason for that is that when IE6 was created it was way ahead of the standards.


    IE6 was broken from the day it was launched. When IE6 came out, HTML4.01 and CSS2 were the official specifications of the time. IE6 built upon Microsoft's attempt to strong arm standards and the direction the web was taking and to completely lock up the web with their technology. IE6 was always at odds with W3C specifications.

    Timeline:


    --After thought--
    IE6 was released near the end of the first browser wars when Netscape and Microsoft were both throwing in proprietary tags and other coding instructions in an effort to lore webmasters to use those instructions and thus force users to use their web browser. By the time IE6 came out, Netscape had lost the war, but that didn't stop Microsoft from unilaterally implementing new instructions. This in turn resulted in IE's broken box model that has plagued us for nearly a decade now and was only fixed in IE8.
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  9. #84
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    It was a different environment at the time. The average webmaster didn't know anything about the W3C. There was no "standards compliant" movement, and W3C didn't even call those specifications "standards", they were just "recommendations". No browser maker fully followed those "recommendations".

    No browser maker fully follows the "standards" today either -- that'd be impossible -- but it's easy to bash something that was made 9 years ago...

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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    It was a different environment at the time. The average webmaster didn't know anything about the W3C. There was no "standards compliant" movement, and W3C didn't even call those specifications "standards", they were just "recommendations". No browser maker fully followed those "recommendations".
    Oh there were those of us who knew about W3C standards and pushed for standards compliance, but we were considered to be part of the lunatic fringe. I've been validating my code to W3C specifications since the days of HTML3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    No browser maker fully follows the "standards" today either -- that'd be impossible -- but it's easy to bash something that was made 9 years ago...
    I've been bashing IE6 since it was released, this is nothing new for me. It made writing standards compliant code a nightmare from the day it was released.

    Browsers may not be perfect to standards today, but compared to back then all browser makers, including MSFT with IE8 are saints. I've been going through and testing my sites to IE8 in standards compliance mode and haven't found one hiccup yet. I don't even need to serve a special IE8 stylesheet via old "<!--[if IE n]>" trick.
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  11. #86
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    IE6 was broken from the day it was launched.
    IE6 gained a better than 95% market share because it was way more powerful and supported far more options than any other browser available at the time it came out.

    In comparing browsers that were released at approximately the same time there has probably never been another browser that was so superior to the alternatives as IE6 was.

    If IE6 was 'broken' when it launched then every other browser that has ever existed (apart perhaps from the original WWW browser) has been completely smashed to the point where getting it to the stage of being 'broken' would require huge improvements. IE6 introduced the biggest advance in browser technology since browsers first existed. All other browsers have introduced far smaller advances compared to their competitors at the time of release. It is only 9 years of cumulative advances that make IE6 look so promitive. Just consider how antiquated most 5 year old browsers look compared to IE6.
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  12. #87
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    IE6 gained a better than 95% market share because it was way more powerful and supported far more options than any other browser available at the time it came out.

    In comparing browsers that were released at approximately the same time there has probably never been another browser that was so superior to the alternatives as IE6 was.
    Were there other good browsers on the market at that time? Yes there were, one was called Opera, which is what I switched to once Netscape floundered. What people don't know is that one of CSS's original creator's, Håkon Wium Lie, has actually worked for Opera since 1999 when he left the W3C (http://people.opera.com/howcome/). Even in 2001, when IE6 was released, Opera was a pretty good browser for the time.

    Other browsers were having problems gaining/maintaining market share in no small part because Microsoft had been abusing its monopoly on the desktop to starve everyone else out of the market. IE6 gained dominance so quickly not because it was the best, but because it was integrated into WinXP and computer manufacturers were essentially prohibited from installing another browser. This is well documented history and we will all recall the anti-trust consent decrees MSFT had to abide by as a result of those practices.

    We must never forget that the primary reason that IE6 got its market share is because of the way MSFT illegally leveraged their monopoly to stifle competition, which in turn stifled innovation. Thus nine years later we are still being hamstrung by technology that should have been retired years ago.
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  13. #88
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    This in turn resulted in IE's broken box model that has plagued us for nearly a decade now and was only fixed in IE8.
    IE6 fixed the issue for any who wanted it with doctype switching.
    IE6 was fine for the time, it's problem is that it's been around for half of the time the internet has existed.
    It's a fast moving technology and browsers need to keep moving to keep up.

  14. #89
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    ... back to the topic of the thread. Google is phasing out IE6! Woohoo!!!
    TAKE A WALK OUTSIDE YOUR MIND.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    IE6 fixed the issue for any who wanted it with doctype switching.
    Some of us wanted to serve one doctype period. Browser sniffing was and still is notoriously unreliable. My practice has been to use the conditional comment tag to feed IE6 a stylesheet with a list of adjustments to make it happy.

    IE6 was fine for the time, it's problem is that it's been around for half of the time the internet has existed.
    Umm.... You don't know your Internet history very well do you?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet

    Three quotes from the article above:

    "The research led to the development of several packet-switched networking solutions in the late 1960s and 1970s, including ARPANET and the X.25 protocols."

    "By defining a simple common network system, the Internet Protocol Suite, the concept of the network could be separated from its physical implementation. This spread of internetworking began to form into the idea of a global network that would be called the Internet, based on standardized protocols officially implemented in 1982."

    "Following commercialization and introduction of privately run Internet service providers in the 1980s, and the Internet's expansion for popular use in the 1990s, the Internet has had a drastic impact on culture and commerce."

    ARPANET was the foundation for what became the Internet. Exact cut off points from the original packet switching methods of ARPANET and full implementation of TCP/IP are fuzzy, but in general, the Internet is around 30 years old. IE6 is not quite yet 9 years old. This means that IE6 has been around for about 1/3 of the life of the Internet. Still, this is too bloody long and IE6 needs to just die already!

    [offtopic]Admins: we need a grim reaper emoticon[/offtopic]
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  16. #91
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    He probably meant "half the time the web existed". Simple slip of the tongue. The web's 20 if you count 1990 when a single page existed as the start, IE6 is 9, that's about half.

  17. #92
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    Some of us wanted to serve one doctype period. Browser sniffing was and still is notoriously unreliable. My practice has been to use the conditional comment tag to feed IE6 a stylesheet with a list of adjustments to make it happy.

    Umm.... You don't know your Internet history very well do you?
    If you use a proper doctype all modern browsers and IE6 use the same box model.

    As for the rest of your rant we were discussing browsers not packet-sniffing , You seem upset that people disagree with you - relax, we're all mates here mate..
    The web as we know it today was born in 1991

  18. #93
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    If you use a proper doctype all modern browsers and IE6 use the same box model.
    I validate to HTML4.01 Strict so yes I use the proper doctype.

    My understanding is that the box model deals with positioning and on one of my sites (as an example), for one object I have used the style rule "position:fixed". IE6 does not like this so for IE6 I have to use the rule "position:absolute".

    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    As for the rest of your rant we were discussing browsers not packet-sniffing , You seem upset that people disagree with you - relax, we're all mates here mate..
    No just annoyed that people don't know their Internet history as well as they should. As a result they make false claims (like claiming there were no other good browsers at the time IE6 was released when Opera was a very solid browser).

    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    The web as we know it today was born in 1991
    People should keep these two things straight. Such mixing of terms really does a disservice to what it took for the Internet to become the Internet. Unfortunatly, too many noobs don't know the rich history of the Internet and actually don't know that it existed before the '90s. They also don't know that the Internet exists because of the U.S. military's DARPA program, they just assume that the Internet came out of the commercial sector, which is not true and in fact the commercial sector actually resisted the advancements that first created and then pushed the Internet along. For example AT&T resisted packet switching in the '60s, said it would never work and actually refused to bid on contracts related to inventing packet switching. In another example, AOL resisted letting users have full access to the Internet, instead trying to keep AOL users locked within the AOL network.

    In the end, it was the military and academia who we owe the greatest debt of thanks for the greatest inventions since the printing press.

    --Back on topic--
    There was a claim that IE6 was ahead of its time. I'd counter that MSFT arrogantly tried to push the web in a direction of their choosing by implementing styling rules that did not exist. They participated in the development of W3C's CSS2.1 specification, but tried to strong arm things in a direction of their choosing (in part IE6 implementing style rules that did not exist). It could easily be argued that had we gone down the path MSFT laid out we would have easily ended up with a less diverse and less flexible web and web development environment.

    IE6 was not ahead of its time, rather MSFT tried to force the future in a direction that suited them and got it wrong. Being ahead of its time would indicate that IE6 predicted the future correctly and got things right; clearly this is not the case. The legacy we have because of this are things like positioning being broken in IE6. Corporations who are stuck on IE6 are stuck because they blindly followed MSFT down an evolutionarily dead end. Now they are stuck unable (or unwilling) to do what is needed to get back on to the thriving trunk of Internet evolution. The rest of us are held back as a result of this.

    IE6 must die.
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  19. #94
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    My understanding is that the box model deals with positioning and on one of my sites (as an example), for one object I have used the style rule "position:fixed". IE6 does not like this so for IE6 I have to use the rule "position:absolute".
    The box model is with regard to whether padding is outside or inside the content width - it has nothing to do with anything else.

    That IE6 doesn't recognise position:fixed and IE6 and 7 don't recognise display:table have nothing to do with the box model.
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  20. #95
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The box model is with regard to whether padding is outside or inside the content width - it has nothing to do with anything else.

    That IE6 doesn't recognise position:fixed and IE6 and 7 don't recognise display:table have nothing to do with the box model.
    Good to know. You hear broken box model thrown around a lot, but I was never 100% clear as to which problem it was referring to. I never really cared because I knew where IE6 would consistently trip me up, the name of the bug didn't really matter.

    The padding measurement issue has always annoyed me, but positioning is what traditionally caused me the most problems with IE6 (that and z-index).
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  21. #96
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    I'd counter that MSFT arrogantly tried to push the web in a direction of their choosing by implementing styling rules that did not exist.
    Kinda like Webkit, the rendering platform people praise as the most advanced today? It's got animation, transitions, mirroring, gradients... all kinds of CSS that isn't in any specification. They're implementing rules that don't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    I'd counter that MSFT arrogantly tried to push the web in a direction of their choosing by implementing styling rules that did not exist
    We wouldn't have AJAX today powering just about every interesting interactive website, including this very form I'm typing in, were it not for Microsoft creating XMLHttpRequest when it was in no specification. All the other browsers implement it too, still in no specification.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLB
    In the end, it was the military and academia who we owe the greatest debt of thanks for the greatest inventions since the printing press.
    Thankful to the pioneers for sure. I'm also thankful to Microsoft for being the single entity most responsible for us having this conversation, or being on the web at all. It was they who made the vision of a computer in every home possible for a billion people.

  22. #97
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    Kinda like Webkit, the rendering platform people praise as the most advanced today? It's got animation, transitions, mirroring, gradients... all kinds of CSS that isn't in any specification. They're implementing rules that don't exist.
    When will these people learn?

    This kind of stuff always takes web developers down a path that inevitably leads to pain, misery and sorrow when web specifications go in a different direction. This was true in 1998 and it is still true today. IE6 is a perfect example of this.
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  23. #98
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy KLB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    We wouldn't have AJAX today powering just about every interesting interactive website, including this very form I'm typing in, were it not for Microsoft creating XMLHttpRequest when it was in no specification. All the other browsers implement it too, still in no specification.
    I never said that MSFT had no good ideas, just that their past is littered with examples where they tried to push technologies that were self-serving, which then came back to haunt those who adopted them.

    AJAX is great, I just wish someone would solidify it into a web specification so that we had something that we knew would be a little more stable for the long run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    It is only 9 years of cumulative advances that make IE6 look so promitive. Just consider how antiquated most 5 year old browsers look compared to IE6.
    But therein lies part of the problem. Firefox, Opera, Safari, Chrome and many other minority browsers push out new versions all the time. IE didn't. Over 5 years passed between IE6 and IE7, even though there were multitudinous known problems with IE6 - which others have pointed out, broke the specifications of the time (released 2 years earlier) in major ways. When IE7 was eventually released, it was only available on the latest version of Windows, which further hindered its take-up.

    Virtually nobody uses versions of Firefox, Opera, Safari or Chrome that are more than 1 year old, let alone 8½, because those browser-makers understood the importance of future-proofing and pushing upgrades. Microsoft assumed the arrogant position that it would dominate the market and had no need to evolve - at the time IE6 was launched, MS did not intend to replace it, ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KLB View Post
    When will these people learn?

    This kind of stuff always takes web developers down a path that inevitably leads to pain, misery and sorrow when web specifications go in a different direction. This was true in 1998 and it is still true today. IE6 is a perfect example of this.
    It isn't as bad now as it was then. When Webkit, Mozilla and Opera implement 'experimental' features that are not yet finalised in the specifications, they do so with prefixed attributes (eg -moz-border-radius), so that if the specs do eventually go a different way or if other browsers treat the property differently, it will only affect the targered browser and won't mess up in other browsers - and allows you to target several browsers that each have a different interpretation of the property.

    That is a whole other kettle of fish from the early Browser Wars and IE6, which made no such allowances for things to be done in any way other than that which they decreed.


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