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  1. #26
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    SpacePhoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrider View Post
    This is good. It is sending a message to companies that it isn't OK to keep using older, insecure browsers, and I think google have chosen Docs and Sites deliberately to hit businesses and force them to upgrade. As for intranet applications, it's not like they can go forever without touching it, so next time they code it, it might make them think about doing it properly, to web standards etc!
    They won't necessarily upgrade, depending on what OS they use, they might need a new machine. They might at the moment be using Windows 2000 (or possibly even something as old as NT4), now even if they could get each new comp for 200, that will soon add up if they have a lot of machines.

    Even if they don't need new machines it will still cost them time and money to upgrade or replace whatever app they are using which relies on IE6. They could quite easily use an existing office app suite (say MS Office or Open Office) and email and share across their internal network whatever files they need and at most it might cost then a couple of hundred to perhaps increase the storage capacity on their email server.

    A update or replacement of the web app they use will take a certain number of hours, now lets say that their web developer charges 9.00 an hour and the recode takes say 100 hours from start to finish (inc testing). That's 900 to replace the web app. For that money they can switch to using normal office software and for many companies that's probably what they will do.
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  2. #27
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    I'm starting to get a taste of what it's like to be in one of those companies, without being in one.

    Some of the online classes at my university are taught through Blackboard, a commercial web platform for that kind of thing. The version of Blackboard they're using does not support Internet Explorer 8, Firefox 3/3.5, Chrome or Safari. I actually have to load up an ancient browser (IE7 or earlier, Firefox 2 or earlier) to submit homework assignments.

    It's not even a complicated website, they just wrote some horrible browser-dependent javascript, somehow.

  3. #28
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    JeffWalden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    It's not even a complicated website, they just wrote some horrible browser-dependent javascript, somehow.
    Amazing how it seems like to much work to actually screw up so badly. Nothing truly horrible happens on accident.
    TAKE A WALK OUTSIDE YOUR MIND.

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy C. Ankerstjerne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    A update or replacement of the web app they use will take a certain number of hours, now lets say that their web developer charges 9.00 an hour and the recode takes say 100 hours from start to finish (inc testing). That's 900 to replace the web app. For that money they can switch to using normal office software and for many companies that's probably what they will do.
    I think you're underestimating the complexity of some corporate intranets. Some of these systems would cost at least millions, and probably tens of millions, to re-build.
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  5. #30
    SitePoint Guru brent5392's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cutcopypaste View Post
    You can download newer versions of IE for free.. it's not as if an OS update is necessary. I work parttime at a crappy call center and they recently managed to get IE7 going. I don't know what was behind that (it was 6 when I started) but it's running on a lot of citrix machines with xp and 256 colours, so it's by no means impossible. Maybe there needs to be a concerted effort in that regard. Because yeah I know companies are very reluctant to spend the money necessary to upgrade systems, but IE is free! or does it cost money for corporate use or something and I'm just confused..
    Although the actual software itself is free there are many other costs. Firstly, any necessary hardware changes must be factored in. Secondly, the cost of testing IE7 with the existing systems in place, followed by the deployment will cost in regards to man-hours.

    Thirdly, any changes to existing systems would be another cost. Finally, any downtime during deployment or due to unforeseen problems that occur post-install could result in a loss of productivity for the business resulting in a financial loss on top of the installation costs.
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  6. #31
    SitePoint Enthusiast important's Avatar
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    Some corporations don't upgrade to new service packs either because it's 'too much of a hassle' for the admins. And were they to allow automatic updates, they wouldn't download a service pack automatically.

    I know quite some users still using XP SP1 and IE8 doesn't work on that. (P.S. Google Chrome doesn't work on < SP2 either).

  7. #32
    SitePoint Enthusiast patzz's Avatar
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    I hate IE6 because i spend lot of time to made my web designs compatible with IE6 and other old browsers. Finally its nice to here google come up with this thanks google

  8. #33
    SitePoint Enthusiast patzz's Avatar
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    IE 7 works on xp sp2 I installed it and used. don't know about sp1, but i don't need to remember that xp sp2 out in 2002

  9. #34
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    I think it's a step in the right direction, we have to take some accountability as professionals and make the move to avoid stagnating the development of the web by simply giving people a reason not to change their browser or upgrade it at any point. Don't get me wrong, I do still support IE6 out of common practice but I usually provide a degraded visual look and feel to give people an incentive to upgrade if and when they can. We seem to be all too willing to follow the numbers and keep the old technologies alive, but I think Google are doing something which may have pains early on, but will eventually prove beneficial to the evolution of the web (by encouraging those who can upgrade to do so). I don't want to be coding for IE6 in 10 years time if I can help it.

  10. #35
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Off Topic:



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperbolik View Post
    It was originally posted in this forum. I was a bit surprised when it got moved to Website Design since it has more to do with latest industry news.
    Ah! Having now just looked at the thread edit history, it seems a few threads were merged together by another mod, and I can only guess the merged result ended up on the wrong forum unintentionally.

    Sorry Hyperbolik, just an oversight!

  11. #36
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    I agree with stormrider, but also want to point out that 10% still use IE and thats because those users do not even know what a web browser is, the only way they know how to get on the internet is click the IE button...I personally don't support IE6 with hacks, I put a CSS message on the page explaining their options

  12. #37
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    For those of us who may attempt to support IE6 or have in the past, do you think telling clients that even Google doesn't support IE6 would convince them to follow suit?

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    They won't necessarily upgrade, depending on what OS they use, they might need a new machine. They might at the moment be using Windows 2000 (or possibly even something as old as NT4), now even if they could get each new comp for 200, that will soon add up if they have a lot of machines.

    Even if they don't need new machines it will still cost them time and money to upgrade or replace whatever app they are using which relies on IE6. They could quite easily use an existing office app suite (say MS Office or Open Office) and email and share across their internal network whatever files they need and at most it might cost then a couple of hundred to perhaps increase the storage capacity on their email server.

    A update or replacement of the web app they use will take a certain number of hours, now lets say that their web developer charges 9.00 an hour and the recode takes say 100 hours from start to finish (inc testing). That's 900 to replace the web app. For that money they can switch to using normal office software and for many companies that's probably what they will do.
    At the end of the day, it's their choice though. Pay for an upgrade and keep progress going, or get left behind. It's the cost of running a business, and anyone not willing to spend the money to upgrade will be left behind, using legacy applications and the like - simple as that.

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard
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    So here it is, the first big thread this year on that most popular of all subjects at sitepoint - dropping IE6.

    I was going to post a thread on Jan 1st asking when the first such thread would start, but I decided that would only encourage someone to start the ball rolling. And it's still january and here's the thread. Sorry armchaircritic, but there's no prize for you or google to win

    So, how far into February will we have to go before the next such thread starts? Two weeks? Three weeks (that's my guess) Based on last year, we''l have a dozen or two such threads, and probably two or three running at the same time - as we did last year.

    And one does have to ask - do you seriously think people will change their browser because google says google docs will eventually not support it? I don't think so. (Did they all change to Chrome when google brought that came out...)

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr John View Post
    And one does have to ask - do you seriously think people will change their browser because google says google docs will eventually not support it? I don't think so. (Did they all change to Chrome when google brought that came out...)
    If your business is reliant on Google Docs, then yes. I use Quickbooks online for my business and just until 6 months ago they didn't support any browser other than IE. I made sure to have an extra PC in my bottom drawer (literally) so that I could update my accounting. Now they support Safari as well but I'm not really a Safari guy. However, I am forced to open Safari every time I need to get into Quickbooks.

    Take that same situation and look at it from a larger company. Users most likely don't have access to more than one browser. Most users still don't even understand that there is more than one type of browser. If the company is reliant on services like Google Docs then this will make them think twice about which default browsers they have installed.

    I can hear you all grumbling in the background... why would a company who's innovative enough to use Google Docs still be using IE6? As it's been mentioned in this thread over and over again, there are still many intranets that rely on IE6. This decision by Google really just places them between a rock and a hard place. It's time for them to either upgrade the internal systems (IE6 & Intranet) or to find a different solution for document/apps.

    On a side note, does anyone know if Office online (whatever it's called) will be supported in IE6? Seeing as Microsoft is supporting IE6 until 2014 it would only make sense that they would make their online product usable in their own supported browser. If it is supported, it'll be interesting to see how they deal with the natural limitations of an outdated browser.
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  16. #41
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperbolik View Post
    On a side note, does anyone know if Office online (whatever it's called) will be supported in IE6? Seeing as Microsoft is supporting IE6 until 2014 it would only make sense that they would make their online product usable in their own supported browser. If it is supported, it'll be interesting to see how they deal with the natural limitations of an outdated browser.
    Office Live works in IE6, IE7, IE8, Firefox and Safari on both Windows and Mac.

  17. #42
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    Well some places are running WindowsXP which will have IE7 pre-installed. One thing is true upgrading multiple computer systems can be very costly.

    Personally I know you think you can stretch a piece of hardware to last just another five months only to realize you can't because the new piece of software you just got needs that extra power, and that is more money out of your pocket and more eating (not ramen) cheap pasta with sauce

  18. #43
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiberianHuskey View Post
    Well some places are running WindowsXP which will have IE7 pre-installed.
    Only if it has been upgraded since Windows XP originally came with IE6 pre-installed. That's why Microsoft are continuing to support IE6 for security patches until 2014 - because that's the date that Windows XP (of which IE6 is a part) is supported to.

    Even IE5 is supported by Microsoft until they cease support for Windows 2000 in July even though support for IE5.5 ceased some time ago.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Even IE5 is supported by Microsoft until they cease support for Windows 2000 in July even though support for IE5.5 ceased some time ago.
    I know this is a bit off-topic for this thread, but interesting that IE5.5 is not supported but IE5 is. I never knew that...
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  20. #45
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    From the sites I manage, IE6 accounts for less than 5% of the people visiting my clients sites. I agree it time to put the dirt on that coffin and move on.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr John View Post
    And one does have to ask - do you seriously think people will change their browser because google says google docs will eventually not support it? I don't think so. (Did they all change to Chrome when google brought that came out...)

    I may be wrong but I would imagine some clients would better understand the purpose of changing browsers if they know a large (very large) company such as google is doing so. That's what I'm suggesting and wondering.

  22. #47
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpeg View Post
    I may be wrong but I would imagine some clients would better understand the purpose of changing browsers if they know a large (very large) company such as google is doing so. That's what I'm suggesting and wondering.
    Google isn't changing web browsers, they aren't an end-user or customer, they are a provider. They are simply dropping support for IE6 within a few of their products and services out of the need to keep their stuff evolving (without being locked into an elderly system). Besides, there are very few people who use IE6 whom do so out of personal choice, it's not a case of a lack of education but a lack of cost-effectiveness to upgrade (at this stage).

  23. #48
    Mouse catcher silver trophy Stevie D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheesedude View Post
    People use IE6 because webmasters support it and for no other reason.
    Absolute rubbish. The majority of people using IE6 do so because (a) they don't know any better, or (b) they are on a corporate network and have no choice.
    There really is no reason not to upgrade except for a few corporate clients using modified IE installations or possibly crappy ActiveX objects, which most don't.
    Corporate networks are often slow to upgrade because (a) they usually have legacy applications that won't work on the new setup, and (b) the cost of rolling even free software out over a network is high. Many corporate networks still run Win2000 or WinNT, which don't support newer versions of IE, and sysadmins are reluctant to switch to Firefox/Opera because they know that the change will cause an immense amount of work for the IT department, not only in rolling out the upgrade but also in dealing with problems arising from application conflicts and user inexperience.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr John View Post
    So here it is, the first big thread this year on that most popular of all subjects at sitepoint - dropping IE6.
    ......
    You missed this thread http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657978 started 3 days before this one.

    Originally it was a "I'm frustrated designing forms/UIs for IE6" thread, but quickly degenerated into a "IE6 bashing" thread. I would prefer to see useful helpful posts on how to deal with the problem(s). But I guess if the OP was wondering if others shared his frustration, he sure knows now. But as the thread has gotten off-topic to the point where it's essentially been hijacked, hopefilly it gets back on track soon.

    Personally I find all the whining about "it makes my job hard", all the various justifications for not doing things professionally, etc. etc. ad nauseum extremely old.

  25. #50
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    You don't find IE6 a little outdated ?


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