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View Poll Results: Which JS Library you prefer to use for creating desktop type web applications?

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  • JQuery

    34 64.15%
  • YUI

    1 1.89%
  • Prototype

    1 1.89%
  • Ext JS

    11 20.75%
  • Moo Tools

    5 9.43%
  • DOJO

    2 3.77%
  • Mochikit

    0 0%
  • Other

    4 7.55%
  • Will create my own library

    8 15.09%
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  1. #126
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    So the meta refresh automatically updates the iframe with ease, but how would the iframe process the form from the main form? Does the iframe have access to the form that it is in?
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  2. #127
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    Does the iframe have access to the form that it is in?
    I can't think of any way it could have without needing JavaScript to examine what is currently in the form. Without JavaScript it could only use server side scripting to report on what has already been submitted to the server.
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  3. #128
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    Cheers felgall, it looks like we're back then to a solution where the user clicks a button to count the characters, which submits and then shows the form with an updated character count.
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  4. #129
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
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    Wow, this a weird and wonderful thread

    What is the right approach to start a project, which have heavy use of JS?
    You should choose you platform / technology carefully. People have suggested using tools like AIR or GWT - It really depends on your skill set and what you want to achieve - Saying it will have a heavy use of javascript doesn't really say much about what you are trying to build.
    If you choose to use web standards - html, css and js - then I agree with the very enthusiastic posters above who say it's best to design the system without js at all first. JS shouldn't be mandatory for a web application. A recent example of this pain was in twitter - I was completely unable to follow someone for a time because a js error prevented me from doing so. It just makes sense - Simply Javascript / Bulletproof Ajax are good at explaining these things.
    how to choose which library is best, or one should develop his own library specific to requirements to keep the file size smaller?
    Kevin Yank had an interesting take on the adoption of a framework - he said that you should only adopt a framework after you have read it, understand it, agree with it - and you couldn't achieve the same thing on your best day of coding.
    If you're not in a position to judge for yourself then I would suggest heeding the advice of those who are.
    Can you suggest any study material (tutorials or books etc.) to learn building this type of interfaces.
    Hmm, I don't know of any good books on UI design in particular.

    I would suggest:

    • If you're part of a team - get everyone loving the product and using it.
    • Release early, release often, get user testing.

  5. #130
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    You should choose you platform / technology carefully. People have suggested using tools like AIR or GWT - It really depends on your skill set and what you want to achieve - Saying it will have a heavy use of javascript doesn't really say much about what you are trying to build.
    Yes. Selecting the technology first is definitely backwards. You should be choosing the technology to fit the task and not breaking the functionality of the task where it doesn't fit the technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    Kevin Yank had an interesting take on the adoption of a framework - he said that you should only adopt a framework after you have read it, understand it, agree with it - and you couldn't achieve the same thing on your best day of coding.
    I hadn't come across that statement before but I certainly agree with it.

    I have always argued that if you don't know how to write JavaScript code to do it yourself then you shouldn't be using a library to do it for you. Not quite the same thing - but along the same lines.
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  6. #131
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    In the case of my example, I would just have a save button on the page which would send the POST data to the iFrame therefore updating the contents, so the preview would occur upon saving, as I said it isn't pretty but the point is it would at least offer a fair alternative for those with no scripting available. When you remove the availability of JavaScript, you do loose the ability to have much control over the dynamic behaviour of on-page content. I guess there might be a way using server-side scripting to save the content to variables before triggering a refresh (as a timed event), but that might interrupt the writing flow as the page would refresh and the writer would have to wait for the content to refresh and be formatted before continuing.

  7. #132
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    In the case of my example, I would just have a save button on the page which would send the POST data to the iFrame therefore updating the contents, so the preview would occur upon saving
    So presumably the iframe is in the page that gets loaded when the submit button is pressed - but wouldn't it be just as easy to include the info directly in that page without using an iframe?
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  8. #133
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    felgall, not really, the edit window wouldn't have anything to refresh (and you don't want to risk losing the data in the refresh), if the display version is contained in an iframe it's only the preview of the finished document which is refreshed... not the preview + the editor.

  9. #134
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    I see. You are assuming that the submit is targetted at the iframe and that the iframe page is the one that passes the info to the server and then refreshes leaving the form itself intact.
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  10. #135
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    Perhaps this is a silly question, but how would the form submit to the iframe without the involvement of some scripting?
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  11. #136
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    <form target="iframename" action=pagetoloadiniframe">
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  12. #137
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    felgall, exactly, if the script works within the iFrame and then on processing does the work needed to display the final document (as a preview) it'll avoid refreshing of the main page. It makes better sense to do it that way rather than have the main page and the iframe refresh equally, let the iframe do all the work and keep everything else static. At least if I were to attempt making something without scripting like that it's the method I would use.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    felgall, exactly, if the script works within the iFrame and then on processing does the work needed to display the final document (as a preview) it'll avoid refreshing of the main page. It makes better sense to do it that way rather than have the main page and the iframe refresh equally, let the iframe do all the work and keep everything else static. At least if I were to attempt making something without scripting like that it's the method I would use.
    Alex, do you happen to know of any sites which use that technique?
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  14. #139
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Nope, I was just making up a solution on the spot to the situation, it's entirely feasible that someone else may have attempted such an implementation, but as far as I am aware, it was more of a mindful proof of concept rather than something currently in widespread use

  15. #140
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    There is still the issue of how to actually move on to the next page in that situation since you still have the form showing. You'd also probably have a lot of people who just keep hitting submit over and over since that's what they'd expect to have to do to get to the next page.
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  16. #141
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    I think most people are used to the concept of iFrames by now, though I guess it depends how you visually implement it (providing cues would help). Either way the fact remains (back to the original topic) that it is possible to build a web application without JavaScript and as such, it shouldn't be relied upon as the sole method of offering the service. This word processing script idea is proof enough that with a bit of common sense, a solution can be found (even if it is ugly).

  17. #142
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    There are only two things that can be relied upon at the browser end, HTML and CSS. Any client-side scripting and frames can't be relied upon as they can be blocked by the user.
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  18. #143
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    There are only two things that can be relied upon at the browser end, HTML and CSS.
    Your visitor can turn CSS off or override it with their own.

    There is only one thing that can be relied upon at the browser end - that your content will be what is processed using whatever setup that particular visitor has in place to process it..
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  19. #144
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    There are only two things that can be relied upon at the browser end, HTML and CSS.
    Should be
    There is only one things that can be relied upon at the client end, non-frameset HTML.

    The client may not be a browser. The client user may not be a human.

    The client may not understand or see meta tags (such as meta refreshes, MIME types or charset settings).

    The client may not be able to create a framed setting.

    The client may not have a windowing system at all.

    The client may not be able to process scripts.

    The client may not be able to process images.

    The client may be overlaid or used in conjunction with other software such as AT.

    The client may not deal correctly with HTTP1.1 (but we hope it does).

    I knew a friend back in electronics class who had an old green CRT and a 386 machine. He read mail, surfed the internet and participated in our local irc channel, all through the terminal, just because it looked cool. I thought it looked cool. NERD GAWD! In his memory I use greenvision colourscheme in vi but it's not as awesome : )

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    There is only one things that can be relied upon at the client end, non-frameset HTML.

    The client may not be a browser. The client user may not be a human.

    The client may not understand or see meta tags (such as meta refreshes, MIME types or charset settings).

    The client may not be able to create a framed setting.

    The client may not have a windowing system at all.

    The client may not be able to process scripts.

    The client may not be able to process images.

    The client may be overlaid or used in conjunction with other software such as AT.

    The client may not deal correctly with HTTP1.1 (but we hope it does).
    So, now all web applications should work in a terminal?
    I think this topic went too far already

  21. #146
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    No-one is saying it should work in those archaic devices, the point (which perhaps you missed) is that you cannot rely on your visitors having the minimum requirements you set. As such you need to build upon the basics at every level to ensure your website and applications degrade as gracefully as possible. Without scripts, without style and without consequence to the end user. Otherwise you are just as bad as the people who ignore accessibility entirely, after all it's your visitors who are the ones who will be using your stuff on a (hopefully) regular basis, not you. Of course making your website work in every browser is asking too much, but the point still stands that if your users won't have it, don't ask for it. It's not like everyone is as lucky as you in the technology they can make use of quickly and easily.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    No-one is saying it should work in those archaic devices, the point (which perhaps you missed) is that you cannot rely on your visitors having the minimum requirements you set. As such you need to build upon the basics at every level to ensure your website and applications degrade as gracefully as possible. Without scripts, without style and without consequence to the end user.
    Everything has minimum requirements, and you just need to tell your user about it. During progress, support of old technologies inevitably dropped sooner or later just to move forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Of course making your website work in every browser is asking too much, but the point still stands that if your users won't have it, don't ask for it.
    It is not feasible to support all browsers in real world anyway.

  23. #148
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by igv View Post
    It is not feasible to support all browsers in real world anyway.
    That's garbage. As far as presenting information on a web page is concerned there's no reason why all browsers can't be supported. As far as allowing your visitors to enter information to send back to the server there's no reason why all browsers can't be supported. You might have something where someone needs to do 50 page loads from the server to achieve something that someone else can do with three mouse clicks but ALL browsers can be and are supported by anyone who actually knows what they are doing.

    Dropping support for a browser means you no longer try to make it look and work identically to modern browsers. It doesn't mean that you break your code so that it isn't usable at all on that browser.

    Properly written web pages and applications can be used in any browser. They just don't look and function the same where the modern options are not available and it uses older fallbacks.
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  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Dropping support for a browser means you no longer try to make it look and work identically to modern browsers. It doesn't mean that you break your code so that it isn't usable at all on that browser.
    You are talking theory. In real world, many companies choose not to waste days or weeks of development time to support for example IE5.0 which has maybe like less than 1% of users. You can agree with that choice or not, but it is how it is.

  25. #150
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    Most companies probably want bother to support a browser older than ie6, if they do they would probably serve up a really simplified version of the site.
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