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View Poll Results: Which JS Library you prefer to use for creating desktop type web applications?

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  • JQuery

    34 64.15%
  • YUI

    1 1.89%
  • Prototype

    1 1.89%
  • Ext JS

    11 20.75%
  • Moo Tools

    5 9.43%
  • DOJO

    2 3.77%
  • Mochikit

    0 0%
  • Other

    4 7.55%
  • Will create my own library

    8 15.09%
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  1. #51
    From space with love silver trophy
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    felgall, what browser (+version) are you using? I'm using FireFox version 3.5.6
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  2. #52
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Since the problem with Google is some recently implemented JavaScript that prevents your being able to return to the search results if the first link you chose wasn't what you are looking for and the simplest fix is to turn JavaScript off so that you can get back to the search results of course it is usable with JavaScript off.
    Wow, when did they start doing this?? and, WHY? Hitting the back button would, you'd think, be something Google wants. Assuming they measure how long it is between clicks from a single results page, they can better see which site are relavant/wanted based on the search terms someone typed in.

    Any search engine, I do a lot of forward and back, likely because my google-fu is terrible... except on ixquick, which opens everything in a new tab for some reason... not sure if I like that or if it's more handy.

    Felgall, I suppose someone could also argue that an application with JS/AJAX could be reasonable to unleash unto the innerwebz but that if a significant number of users used thee same app without JS, that it would be a server load that would make the whole idea impractible. Or can that always be solved with clever Apache tricks or something?

  3. #53
    SitePoint Member brandonorndorff's Avatar
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    I would go along with the Adobe air way of creating an application if you have limited scripting knowledge otherwise Flash works very well for this (and easy if using an app like swish to develop it.

  4. #54
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    felgall, what browser (+version) are you using? I'm using FireFox version 3.5.6
    Opera 10.10

    The userscript I posted fixes the problem by completely deleting all the JavaScript from the Google web pages as soon as they finish loading. Obviously the people at Google haven't written the JavaScript properly - they seem to produce huge of code that was considered to be a poor way of writing JavaScript way back in the 20th Century. I don't think anyone at Google really knows the first thing about writing JavaScript properly or they wouldn't have so many of their facilities where you need to turn JavaScript off in order for them to work properly (I had a similar problem before with GMail and Firefox).
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  5. #55
    From space with love silver trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Opera 10.10

    The userscript I posted fixes the problem by completely deleting all the JavaScript from the Google web pages as soon as they finish loading. Obviously the people at Google haven't written the JavaScript properly - they seem to produce huge of code that was considered to be a poor way of writing JavaScript way back in the 20th Century. I don't think anyone at Google really knows the first thing about writing JavaScript properly or they wouldn't have so many of their facilities where you need to turn JavaScript off in order for them to work properly (I had a similar problem before with GMail and Firefox).
    felgall, i think you must have a local setup problem, GMail works fine for me with javascript enabled and I just tried google in Opera 10.10 (only downloaded and installed Opera 10.10 a few days ago) and it works fine for me. Are you using Windows? I'm using Windows Vista.
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  6. #56
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    felgall, i think you must have a local setup problem, GMail works fine for me with javascript enabled and I just tried google in Opera 10.10 (only downloaded and installed Opera 10.10 a few days ago) and it works fine for me. Are you using Windows? I'm using Windows Vista.
    The GMail problem is that it uses a crappy browser sensing script. I was using Firefox at the time with a unique useragent to specifically identify me (I had IE set to use exactly the same useragent). Because the useragent wasn't one that the crappy Google code expected the script totally malfunctioned. Such malfunctions are the fault of the script since useragent is allowed to be anything at all in IE and Firefox and can have several different values in other browsers.

    In this latest situation I had been running Opera 10.10 for some time with Google functioning normally. Then the search engine suddenly started processing the links from the search result differently using a redirect so that when you try to return to the results page it automatically redirects back to the page you were just on. I hadn't changed anything on my computer so the only possible cause for the change is in the JavaScript code that Google is using. Since Google tends to use JavaScript coding techniques that were obsolete ten years ago I have no reason to believe that the problem is anywhere other than their script and since deleting their JavaScript removes the problem I am even more inclined to believe that they have once again added some poorly written JavaScript to their site that tests for things that have no relevance whatever and then processes in weird ways depending on what they find. Even if it is something in my browser settings causing Google to behave the way that it is behaving the problem is in Google's code and not in my settings since those settings should not be affecting that behaviour. What Google really need to do is to hire someone who knows how to write JavaScript rather than having their JavaScript written by people who haven't the first clue as to how JavaScript works.

    It really is such garbage scripts written by people who do not know the first thing about JavaScript that encourage more and more people to turn JavaScript off. For most people just turning it off completely gets rid of all the problems from garbage scripts. Some will use the toggle option in Opera or add the NoScript extension to Firefox (which provides the same functionality) in order to be able to easily turn it on and off as required. The userscript I posted will make it easier for anyone using Opera, Firefox, or IE to have JavaScript turned off automatically on selected sites where they have problems with the scripts rather than having to turn it off for everything.
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  7. #57
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    My guess about the old out of date javascript is that they're doing it to try and maintain compatibility with older web browsers. I don't know why they are bothering with HTML5 when HTML5 isn't finalised yet.
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  8. #58
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    My guess about the old out of date javascript is that they're doing it to try and maintain compatibility with older web browsers.
    But even Netscape 2 supports feature sensing so the invalid browser sensing that they are doing was a poor way of supporting specific browsers even then and since all browsers earlier than that didn't even support JavaScript there is no need to cater for them in the script at all.

    If their script used feature sensing it would work in all browsers that support the required features but because it uses an extremely badly written browser sensing script it is trivial to get the script to crash in just about any browser just by changing the useragent. So the particular coding method that their script uses was obsolete back before Og the caveman was born. All it does is to prevent the script functioning in any browser where any one of a large range of legitimate configuration changes have been made in the browser. There is not one browser that their script supports that wouldn't be better supported by feature sensing.

    Effectively their script is doing the equivalent of testing for whether your car can go over a certain speed by checking if the car is red or grey in colour. If it is any other colour then the car is assumed to be missing a few wheels and so no attempt is made to get it to move.


    There is no HTML 5 in their page so why are you wondering why they are bothering to use it when they are not using it. The doctype they are using is valid for all versions of HTML between 2 and 4.01.
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  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall
    Obviously the people at Google haven't written the JavaScript properly - they seem to produce huge of code that was considered to be a poor way of writing JavaScript way back in the 20th Century. I don't think anyone at Google really knows the first thing about writing JavaScript properly...
    Dmitri says it's because they're really Java programmers. So, verbosity and pedantics : )

  10. #60
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    they're really Java programmers.
    The problem with the slight similarities between Java and JavaScript is that some people who know one of them thinks that they ought to be able to write using the other when in fact the two languages are very different from one another.

    I guess having Java programmers write garbage that they think is JavaScript is probably even more common than having JavaScript programmers write garbage that they think is Java.
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  11. #61
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    I guess having Java programmers write garbage that they think is JavaScript is probably even more common than having JavaScript programmers write garbage that they think is Java.
    I would assume any JSers would take a look at Java, think it was C, and run away.

  12. #62
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    Us JSers, we take a look at Java, realise that it's not C, and run away.
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  13. #63
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmw57 View Post
    Us JSers, we take a look at Java, realise that it's not C, and run away.
    I agree. C is a fairly easy language but Java looks to be a much harder one (way harder even than C++).
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  14. #64
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Actually C++ is the harder language (if you want harder than that it's time to get ASM out of the box) but they do have quite a bit in common, my cousin used to program Java all the time but I always mocked him for it because as far as I am concerned, Java is the runt of the C family (the slow, ugly one which only the sadists enjoy the company of). Java does have it's uses for mobile devices but for the desktop, it's hideous (in both resource hogging and it's gnarly GUI tools)

  15. #65
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    (the slow, ugly one which only the sadists enjoy the company of)
    But, but but.... he comes with his own house!!! hmm like a houseslug.

    Isn't that why anyone uses it in the first place? The VM?

  16. #66
    SitePoint Addict reboltutorial's Avatar
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    Adobe Air seems good, I'm looking at it. Unfortunately it cannot launch external app which is limiting it so I'm hesitating between it and Java.

  17. #67
    SitePoint Addict reboltutorial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Actually C++ is the harder language (if you want harder than that it's time to get ASM out of the box)
    ASM is not so hard, I have programmed ASM in Win32 api in the past, it's rather the lack of easy-to-follow documentation that makes things hard.

  18. #68
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    You develop GUI based Java applications for different platforms, you can go for the Moblie applications, you can embed java applications in your web pages, and these different platforms have different methods to develop the java appilcations. Just follow the methods of one specific platform. Afterall it needs the effort.
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  19. #69
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Actually C++ is the harder language
    I didn't find C++ all that hard as I already knew C. Once Ii had learnt what object oriented programming was writing C++ was really easy but Java still looks way to hard for me to bother with considering how limited it is in what it can do.
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  20. #70
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's because I come from a BASIC background as to why I found it complicated, I started on BASIC (aged 6), moved along each version of Visual Basic (up to 6) and then whilst learning Delphi (pascal) I dived into VB.NET (05 + 08)... though I'm learning C# so I guess that's something

  21. #71
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    I learn lots of new stuff here ! regard

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Extensive studies have shown that about 70% of all web users have some form of disability that has some sort of effect on how they use the web. In many cases those disabilities will not impact on their being able to use your proposed web application but it is reasonable to suppose that a significant fraction of the 5-10% of people who have JavaScript disabled have done so (even if unknowingly) as a result of their disability (which they themselves may not be aware of).
    So now we're liable for anticipating not only rare disabilities, but undiagnosed or unclassified disabilities that the user doesn't even know they have? Does this not seem the least bit absurd? Damn it, Jim, I'm a programmer, not a lawyer!

    By the way, I told my project coordinator that I think we need to prominently place a message on every page instructing users who have difficulty with the site to call our toll free phone number for assistance. Rewriting the whole site simply isn't practical at this time.

    In principle, I agree that a Web site should work without JavaScript. In practice, I don't have any say in the matter in my current position.

  23. #73
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    You don't have to deal with any disabilities explicitly, nor should you. Accessibility is about dealing with issues which may damage someone's browsing experience. You do not need a medical degree to be able to do this. As an example... sure color blindness, short-sightedness, eye loss, full blindness, cataracts and others could be seen individually as problems which may affect the end user... but you don't need to know that. What you are expected to know is that people may have visual disabilities of varying levels... therefore ensure your sites visuals degrade as gracefully for people with varying needs as your website would for browsers with lesser levels of technology support. It's not about knowing condition by name and dealing with each thing individually. It's about knowing all the ways people interface with computers (and there's not that many) and then dealing with what could happen on a sliding scale.

    In the example of visual disability you think... what if they can't see well (blurry vision, short/long-sightedness), what if they can see well but they can't see all colors (color blindness), what if they can't see at all (total blindness / had eye surgery). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think of the various ways people use technology (sight, hearing, touch) or the way's they connect with it (intellectual, emotional, social, psychological) and then taking factors which may affect them. If you have a aural problem, it's going to be your ears that are affected... what affects ears on the web... sound... what if they can't hear properly (tinnitus) or if they can't hear at all... have subtitles, audio description or transcripts. Just like with web design it's about the situation of the end user rather than their explicit needs

  24. #74
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by World Wide Weird View Post
    Damn it, Jim, I'm a programmer, not a lawyer!
    You are definitely NOT a programmer if you don't know how to get a web page to work without JavaScript.
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    You are definitely NOT a programmer if you don't know how to get a web page to work without JavaScript.
    Who said I don't know how? As I've stated twice already, I am not the person who makes that decision at my company. I simply implement what the suits dream up. If they want a jQuery accordion menu or a cute little billing cost calculator on the page, that's what they get.

    It's rather odd that you declined to answer my question a few pages back, yet found the time to post this little jab.


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