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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard PHPycho's Avatar
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    In case of web programming, I think no one ca beat PHP.
    PHP is simply the best in web world.

  2. #27
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    Are there any other web-oriented languages/platforms which you are familiar to?

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    I can't argue that PHP is great... I use it every day almost without exception and it is great however, if the base software is going to be developed as a standalone desktop application, which I would recommend then it would be more efficient to produce the web component using the same suite of tools if possible.

    Actually you could even use .NET with Visual Studio to write the standalone in C++ with MySQL then write the PHP application using whatever IDE you wanted however, I think the .NET framework has speed advantages when used as a package with SQL Server due to tighter integration and there would definitely be a maintainability advantage keeping it all under one IDE. That's the clincher to me. It's not good enough to just make it work; it has to be maintainable and extensible for the future.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  4. #29
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkinstall View Post
    I see where you're coming from.

    However, its not just how data is output. There's also where it comes from, how its accessed.

    The web works via requests - single bursts of sending/requesting information. Desktop applications are more dynamic, multiple things can be happening at once, output can vary depending on the current application state and some data may be modified live whilst the rest is being edited.

    A backbone that accepts both would be subject to inefficiencies.

    At most you could keep the models and controllers - something which can be rewritten into a different language in very little time.
    Yes and no. You have some different usage patterns with web apps, but the core business data and logic are the same. The interface just tends to be a bit chunkier for desktop apps. The UI tier should handle most of the data modification/presentation style issues weather the client be thick or thin. But everything should be backed by the same set of services. Yeah, you will get some inefficiencies working this way, but the advantages of having one set of core logic and business data services outweighs those by far.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Zealot smadeira's Avatar
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    As we have discovered once again, this is more of a religious war than a technology war. Both platforms will do what you want and both will do it well. My preference is PHP because that is what I learned first and I think it feels less bloated to me. I said "feel" so it is an opinion. Don't blast me with byte counts and CPU cycles. I don't care.

    That said, your choice of language would really depend on your environment. If you are in an organization that run MSSQL then the Microsoft tools would be easier to get started with and the integration would be more seamless. There is an MSSQL driver for PHP so you can do PHP code against a SQL server database but it isn't as smooth as using native .NET and SQL server.

    If you have a situation where you need to use Apache as your web server or MySQL as your database or you are looking for a totally free solution even if you want to put it into production then PHP may be a better bet. I find that they fit together more easily. You can download a LAMP or WAMP stack and install and be up and running pretty quickly.

    If this is a prelude to a career then I would probably be inclined to go C# on ASP.NET with a SQL Server database. My experience (at least in my part of the country) is that C# developers are perceived more as software engineers and VB.Net developers are perceived as hobbyists. "Real coders" use C#. Salary-wise it seems that .NET people make more money than PHP people (at least where I come from.) C# may pay higher than VB. Your mileage may vary.

    The other approach would be to use the one you know the least. It is a good idea to learn multiple platforms and multiple frameworks and see how each one handles different situations to make you a better developer.

    Again, this is only my $0.02...
    Scott

  6. #31
    SitePoint Zealot evilunix's Avatar
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    PHP. ASP to me, is the scripting language equivalent of using dreamweaver to code static web pages. Lots of bloated code. It encourages bad practice also, by relying on cookies and javascript for many of its inbuilt controls...

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    I don't necessarily think this is YARW (yet another religious war ) but there have been some less than insightful comments promoting one idea over another without backing their preference up. Personally, I am an Open Source advocate and spend a lot of time using Linux, apache, eclipse, php, etc... however when looking at large or complex apps, I have to look at the scope of the project as well as how it will be maintained and extended in the future and think about how easy it will be to maintain if I'm not around to do the maintaining.

    BTW: If there is a suitable Open Source inventory management, shipping receiving project available that I can modify for remote access through web services, I would definitely go that route and then tie it with a PHP web interface because support and maintenance would be a snap.

    If it were a project I was tasked with, I would try to build a case for a PHP web solution that uses MySQL for the data layer and maybe Python on the desktop because I truly believe that MySQL, Python and PHP provide great value in that the system would not be specific to a particular platform (win/*nix/Mac).

    On the other hand because Visual Studio can be used to develop & support both client and server application software with drag & drop database tools there is a compelling case to use a solution entirely under the MS.NET umbrella. Even more compelling is that the desktop app could be outfitted with the ability to use crystal reports or export reports into Excel or other MS Office formats.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  8. #33
    SitePoint Addict dgroves's Avatar
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    Personalyl, PHP all the way!

  9. #34
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    awasson and smadeira make great points. Your choice of tool depends on a number of factors including things like budget, time frames, resources, etc. The type of application will also have a large say in tool choice and the usage.

    All languages have pros and cons, and you should weigh them up against the constraints, requirements and environment. Budget constraints might influence your choice when you take licensing costs into consideration for development tools and server environment. Developer resources, both currently hired and available to hire locally is something that can drastically influence the decision.

    As I said before, I've written a large application like this before, and we used .Net and SOAP Web Services. If I was to the same application today, I might do things differently...

    The Web Services added a lot of complexity that hindered development and would go with something else now. I would strive for simplicity and go with REST based and transfer data as JSON. I'm not sure what language I would go for here now, there are a number that can supply the requirements, but it wouldn't be PHP, I don't enjoy writing it I'm afraid.

    The data was heavily reported one, so I would still need to have it in Sql Server at some point so the report guys that know SSRS can do their job. But depending on the type of activity of the server app, I might use an OODB.

    We had barcode scanners on WIndows Mobiles and I would probably stick with .Net as the Compact Framework made development relatively easy and Windows based PDAs are fairly low cost. Again, I would stick with .Net for the desktop application as more than likely it would have to run on a Windows desktop and development is awesome. if the desktop app was basically a thin wrapper to the service, I would aim to keep it simple and the UI completely independent of the plumbing, making it possible to port the core to Linux on Mono and possibly the iPhone using MonoTouch. Python would good for cross-platform, but you can get a lovely UI fairly cheaply with .Net and WPF.

    I would highly recommend anyone writing a large, long lived application in .Net to avoid most of the drag and drop tools

  10. #35
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    I would definitely use PHP. It is easy to program and free.

    PHP has many tools to build which are free. I like it because It easily embeds into html code.
    Thanks, Haradeep
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  11. #36
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilunix View Post
    PHP. ASP to me, is the scripting language equivalent of using dreamweaver to code static web pages. Lots of bloated code. It encourages bad practice also, by relying on cookies and javascript for many of its inbuilt controls...
    Except we are talking about using ASP.NET not ASP. There is a big difference between the two.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  12. #37
    SitePoint Zealot evilunix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logic_earth View Post
    Except we are talking about using ASP.NET not ASP. There is a big difference between the two.
    Yes, well I meant ASP.NET. There's no reason for ASP to be bloated, but Visual Studio + ASP.NET = very bloated code

  13. #38
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilunix View Post
    Yes, well I meant ASP.NET. There's no reason for ASP to be bloated, but Visual Studio + ASP.NET = very bloated code
    Really? Can we have some proof please?

  14. #39
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    ^^^Yeah. And show me a modern web app that doesn't use a) javascript and b) cookies. Not everyone is a neckbeard living in Mom's basement running linx on their 8086 toaster.

  15. #40
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    I love the IDE tools that Microsoft offers, they are just great to use.

    The one thing that I have found is that the PHP community is much more open and friendly. If I am looking for frameworks and/or widgets, either to drop in one of my projects or learn by reading the source, I have many great options with PHP, and I can find them quickly after a few moments on google. *dot* Net has plenty of choices, but few are free, few of those are open, and even fewer are supported by a community of users.

    Community support is something that I consider to be very important when considering a platform.

    And I agree somewhat with evilinux - the code I get with *dot* Net seems bloated and poor to me, though that is probably just because it is different that what I would have done by hand.

    Sorry about the *dot* silliness, I am not yet permitted to post URLs...

  16. #41
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    First off, you need to add a framework to PHP before you can even try and compare PHP to ASP.NET. ASP.NET is not a language it is a framework, one that you do not even have to use. Secondly if you do not like the control that are offered you can create them yourself and do whatever it is you like. You are not forced into using them.

    Third, Visual Studio is an IDE but how does that make your web application written using ASP.NET bloated?
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    I can't say for certain but I expect a lot of developers who haven't used .NET or Java for that matter are turned off by typical .NET code (VB/C#) because of the declarations that are required before you can get into coding.

    I don't think the code produced by the VS IDE is particularly bloated. Actually the use of code behind makes it just that much cleaner than anything else I've seen.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  18. #43
    SitePoint Enthusiast kirsky's Avatar
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    I would go for PHP. It's open source and that many programmers use it. IMO

  19. #44
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirsky View Post
    I would go for PHP. It's open source and that many programmers use it. IMO
    Many programmers use .NET as well, also several parts of .NET are in fact Open Source and there is a full Open Source implemetation called Mono. So what point were you trying to make?
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  20. #45
    Theoretical Physics Student bronze trophy Jake Arkinstall's Avatar
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    Several parts of .Net being open source doesn't really make it open source, does it? :P Though I agree that Mono is pretty decent.

    Though as for the community - the PHP developer communities seem to be much stronger and larger than .net communities. With my experience with .Net, however, it may be due to the fact that .Net is very easy to start up with - a 5 min tutorial could get one through enough to make a basic website.

    PHP gives you a finer degree of control, I suppose. ASP.Net outputs client side code - I wouldn't like that. I want my applications to output what I tell them to, and if some action happens, I want it to be because I wrote that action - that view seems to be fairly widespread with those who choose PHP over ASP.Net.

    I believe it's unfair to suggest that ASP.Net can't be compared to PHP simply because its more of a framework. It's more THAN a framework too. Based on that argument, PHP is a framework because it has a built-in library of functions and classes, no?
    Jake Arkinstall
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    Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona

  21. #46
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    But Jake, you can control the output in ASP.NET just like you can with PHP. Just like any framework there is a pre-defined structure and method if you chose to follow the framework strictly. But you are in no way forced to follow only one method.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  22. #47
    SitePoint Zealot evilunix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    ^^^Yeah. And show me a modern web app that doesn't use a) javascript and b) cookies. Not everyone is a neckbeard living in Mom's basement running linx on their 8086 toaster.

    No, but its precisely this kind of attitude that makes your websites FAIL when you don't take into account that SOME people do have cookies and javascript disabled, especially in the corporate environment. I'm going out on a limb here, but I suppose you also think we should stop supporting IE6 too? Not everyone is a nerd running the latest version of firefox

  23. #48
    SitePoint Zealot evilunix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhtmlgod View Post
    Really? Can we have some proof please?
    Right click then view source

  24. #49
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    @evilunix, and what makes you think you require Javascript and cookies to make use of ASP.NET?
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  25. #50
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilunix View Post
    Right click then view source
    It's possible to write bad code with any tool, and ASP.NET is no exception. This is a popular site, written in ASP.NET by my company: http://twibbon.com/ Is that bloated?


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