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  1. #1
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Current state of Designers........

    Hi there,
    I was interested to know what your opinions are regarding the current state of many designers on the web, especially in regard to knowledge of standards etc...

    I have only recently become greatly interested in standards, accessibility, correct document validation etc. And I aim to really learn and push for these types of things.......

    However, do you think a good reputable designer should have a knowledge of, and should validate their sites....Lately I have seen many designers etc, who do not use CSS, have no doctype and probably dont care about standards........

    I just feel that many web site creators out there feel that these issues are not important.....which to me seems a very unprofessional attitude.....

    cheers

  2. #2
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    Yes, I do believe professional webmasters should try to follow the W3C Technical Recommendations if they are selling a service based upon such technologies; in theory it's just as easy to write valid HTML code, as it is invalid HTML.

    The internet is still flooded with propriety HTML elements, many of which are generated by the WYSINWYG editors.
    Last edited by xhtmlcoder; Jun 17, 2002 at 04:33.

  3. #3
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    well, Designers are upon the needs of what they like and what they prefer. If a person really can do without use of CSS or DHTMl. its upto him how does he do it. but i certainly belive validation and CSS and DHTML today for designers is very important with good graphics..
    Peace.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Enthusiast Davve's Avatar
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    It depends very much on who you're working for. For example, http://www.structab.se. It's 200 kb! I think it's way too much, but the man with the cash thought (and still thinks) that that doesn't matter, as long as it looks kind of cool and it happens stuff.

    Others really can't stand those "cool" sites and want the plain '96 standard type sites we've seen since, well, 1996. ;-)

    My point is that if your employer doesn't give a damn if some people can or can't watch the page, it's not your problem.

    Ok, I know that this isn't what you were talking about, but there are some cases, even though they aren't that many...

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I think the answer to your question isn't in the "current state" of designers, but based upon where we should be.

    As a whole, web designers in particular are very ... untrained. They were not taught the "right" way to do things, the importance of certain basic things (like standards), etc.

    As a result you have 2 things. You have a sense of creativity, but you also have a disparateness. Nobody agrees on what are really simply issues.

    As an example I could point to this thread. On person says standards are important, another says it's up to the client.

    I could debate the last point, but really I'll just draw the discussion aside a little. Is it debatable that the more solid a foundation for a house is, the longer it will last? Is it debatable that keeping proper time in music is essential to the growth and flow of that music? Is it debatable that remember someone's name in sales will result in a greater turnover?

    Of course not. These are basic precepts of each of these professions, and standards and accessibility are the exact same thing in ours. A client can debate all they want, however if they say "put an ActiveX control on this page and make it work with Netscape" I am more likely to walk out (so to speak) than I am to do as they say.

    Clients don't hold absolute power. At the end of the day, the old excuse "the client wanted it" does not wash. You are responsible for the sites you produce, nobody else is. If you are making a site you cannot be proud of, stop making it.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  6. #6
    SitePoint Enthusiast Davve's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Clients don't hold absolute power. At the end of the day, the old excuse "the client wanted it" does not wash. You are responsible for the sites you produce, nobody else is. If you are making a site you cannot be proud of, stop making it.
    Even though I agree with you, there's the old saying: "the customer is always right."

  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Which is a complete lie.

    Not to be rude, but customers love this line, and it never is and never will be true. Want a fifth wheel on your car? Think that rubber pipes are better for your house? Want a dress made entirely of poison ivy?

    The customer isn't always right. If the customer had the knowledge required THEN they could be right some of the times.

    I've also heard "money talks". So does my back walking away. I have pride in my work and the work my company does. Every single thing we do is an idea, a concept and a product I am proud of. If I can't be proud of it I won't do it.

    I realise some people think they can't survive with morals and standards, but the reality is that if you stick to your principles you will always rise faster than someone who is constantly compromising. Every lie, every unwarranted compromise is always paid for.

    It's really simple actually, my customers know I'm sincere. They know that when I voice a concern it is a real concern. They don't need to do things "my way", but they know that I am being honest when I tell them something is bad. Not every client I (figuratively) walk away from has left our company, in fact very few do. Principles aren't bad for business is really the bottom line
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  8. #8
    SitePoint Enthusiast Davve's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Which is a complete lie.

    Not to be rude, but customers love this line, and it never is and never will be true. Want a fifth wheel on your car? Think that rubber pipes are better for your house? Want a dress made entirely of poison ivy?
    LOL!

    True.

    Principles aren't bad for business is really the bottom line
    Also true. You speak like a wise old man. You must be Yoda! Seriously though, it is good with content clients too.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    *L* I think it's a Monday thing, normally I'm a complete goof except when I'm writing for SitePoint
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  10. #10
    SitePoint Enthusiast Davve's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    *L* I think it's a Monday thing, normally I'm a complete goof except when I'm writing for SitePoint
    And they made YOU advisor?! Tss...

  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, that's what everyone says
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  12. #12
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    I agree that the customer is always right, and that the customer is entirely free to have their own opinion. However this doesn't mean that I have to agree with the customer...

    I have built a successful web design and programming business based upon adherence to the loosely defined set of standards that do exist. One of the reasons I think I have been successful is that I say no to clients as often as I say yes. If I think that their suggestion is not good, I tell them and also suggest a way to implement their idea in a more reasonable fashion.

    If they don't like this, then it's too bad, I don't do the work for them. I find it is better to be honest and up front with clients, and NOT do the work if you feel uncomfortable with it.

    Of course, this only works for you if you have plenty of project opportunities, but I have found that by sticking to these principles, my project opportunities have increased.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Addict goma's Avatar
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    I asked this same question in another community's forum:

    http://66.70.72.50/forums/showthread...hreadid=128298


    My sincere apologies to the admins if I'm breaking any rules by posting links like this.
    http://www.soapbox101.com

  14. #14
    SitePoint Guru moonman's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what you say Jeremy, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullett with clients.

    I'm working on a site for a guy at the moment, and I've tried to drag him kicking and screaming out of the 80's, but it just ain't gonna happen, so I'm just gonna do whatever he asks, and believe me, some of the stuff he wants looks bad.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Addict psychedelic's Avatar
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    --Validation--
    I've only started to write code for standards. Usually I don't because it's a hassle to do so. But to get jobs and stuff I suppose you should, though I have more jobs than I can handle.

    I've just redid the HTML for my site to XHTML Transitional and it valides with validator.w3c.org I don't think I'm going back to redo all the sites I've done, but maybe one or two that I still maintain.

    --the customer is always right--
    The customer is always right - if you want to get paid. Moonman, what I have done is always do what the client wants, even if I don't like it.

    I did a mineral site recently and used a different mineral as an icon for each menu item. But I photoshopped many to get the colors I wanted to get nice variations. The customer wanted a certain set of minerals. So I redid the navigation and showed it to him. I told him I thought his selections were nice but the colors didn't match well and the zooms of the minerals just didn't look well together in that combination. We tried flipping them around and he saw it didn't work. Then we went back to what I had originally created.

    Sometimes you just have to beat around the bush for a bit. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
    The Internet is prettier on a Mac.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard Goof's Avatar
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    I think right now is a very poor time to evaluate standards.

    Since 6.0 browsers were really the first browsers to be standardized to any degree worth speaking of, designers are still used to the "if it works with as many browsers as possible, then it's as standard as its going to get" mentality (which was the demanded mentality if you wanted to get paid just a year ago). Even now we are still forced to design for old 4.x and 5.x browsers which do not like to agree on the W3C "standards".

    With standards being a relatively new thing (at least, standards that work) in areas like CSS or DHTML, I don't think it's necessarily bad if all of my code isn't W3C compliant. The W3C doesn't program the browsers that my client's visitors will use, neither is their input into companies like Microsoft or Netscape as great as we would like. I still think we are in a period of "rolling with the punches" from a designer's point of view and that this will be a much more important thing in a year or so - that is, if things keep improving.

    Just my 2 cents,
    Goof
    Nathan Rutman
    A slightly offbeat creative.


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