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  1. #76
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    there's an episode of the TV series friends which covers this thing.
    Haha, remember that one. But there are also all books written about it, Atlas Shrugged to name one.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    BUT...there are other scenarios where u are just doing someone a good turn out of the kindness of ur heart - theres not necessarily a good feeling after it - there are lots of obliging people out there who are just like that because its in their nature to be like that, sure everyone feels good after helping someone out but sometimes its just automatic for some people
    And they automatically feel good for doing it.

    Don't try to reinvent the wheel Hazel, it is what it is.
    Saul

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    There's no such thing as a selfless act, every action has some kind of gain (intentional or otherwise) attached to it
    I'd say there's no such thing as a selfless act if you're allowed to voluntarily choose.

    And yes, if I did nice things for someone out of the kindness of my heart, there is a reward attached to that. It meant that I valued that person, whether a begger on the street or a close friend of mine, more than the energy I put in to perform the favour.

    And that is what makes the other person feel good too! Because in that simple act, even without phrasing it, the person knows how highly their happiness was valued by you. You know how they say, "It's the thought that counts" ?

    That's not selfless. That's trading a value for a higher value.

    I'm trading the value of my energy for the higher value of that person's smile.

    Trying to fill the unforgiving minute
    with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

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  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    i disagree saul - some people are just that easy going they'll do anything for a friend or whatever - they dont do it for a feel good factor or reward, u just do it - end of I've helped people out for free - there were plenty of times when it was just automatic - if someone asks u to do something for them - ok yeah i'll do it - there is no big feeling of content or satisfaction that i did something for free - its just a normal feeling to me

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    [FONT="Georgia"]I'd say there's no such thing as a selfless act if you're allowed to voluntarily choose.
    Very good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    i disagree saul - some people are just that easy going they'll do anything for a friend or whatever - they dont do it for a feel good factor or reward, u just do it - end of I've helped people out for free - there were plenty of times when it was just automatic - if someone asks u to do something for them - ok yeah i'll do it - there is no big feeling of content or satisfaction that i did something for free - its just a normal feeling to me
    And you mean to say that by doing that they feel bad?
    Saul

  5. #80
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    i disagree saul - some people are just that easy going they'll do anything for a friend or whatever - they dont do it for a feel good factor or reward, u just do it - end of I've helped people out for free - there were plenty of times when it was just automatic - if someone asks u to do something for them - ok yeah i'll do it - there is no big feeling of content or satisfaction that i did something for free - its just a normal feeling to me

    There's no such thing as an action without consequence. There's also no such thing as an action without motive. We do things for a reason. That goes for any species, not just the human species.
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  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Im not saying that there are no effects caused by doing someone a good turn or helping them out - of course there are...... what i am saying is that this does not happen in every instance - for example, i am a very obliging person, people have said this to me before - i dont help people out for a feel good factor nor do i have a motive behind helping someone out - i do it because its how i am, its just me - i feel indifferent before/after the fact *shrug*

  7. #82
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    felgall - i disagree with that quote and when i do something for free i never expect anything in return because im doing it for free in the first place!
    So you never do anything to "feel good about having done it" or "to fill in time between other tasks" or "to take a break from other things". A millionaire might do something to "give something back" to those that helped them to become a millionaire. Those are possible "payments" that some people expect from doing things for others. If you were not going to get something from doing it then you wouldn't do it.

    Even the feeling of having done what you expect of yourself is a payment of sorts.

    The other thing to consider iis that having done something for someone what will your reaction be when they ask you to do 1,000 times as much of the same for them. Would you continue doing it for them without changing the "price". If not then the price they have paid may be that they got it started and now have no way to finish it and so have to go back and start again having wasted their time. It isn't necessarily what you charge for doing something for someone, it can also be what they pay because you did it for them. Sometimes the "payment" is that they never get to learn how to do it themselves.

    Regardless of your reasons for doing things you need an income to live on and so you need to spend sufficiient time on activiities that actually bring in real money to be able to live before you can consider other activities that have non-financial benefits. For those who make part or all of their income from the internet getting enough money from their internet activitiies to live on takes priority and anything that they do would be expected to have some benefit to them financially even if iindirectly (such as helping others in order to advertise their services through word of mouth) or helping others in order to gather information to help decide on future developments of their work.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  8. #83
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    Im not saying that there are no effects caused by doing someone a good turn or helping them out - of course there are...... what i am saying is that this does not happen in every instance - for example, i am a very obliging person, people have said this to me before - i dont help people out for a feel good factor nor do i have a motive behind helping someone out - i do it because its how i am, its just me - i feel indifferent before/after the fact *shrug*
    Feeling obliged to do something is a motive. If you do something because someone requested it, there's your motive right there. An action is always followed by a reaction and vice versa. It's how the universe is setup, and we're part of that.

    The effect does not have to be positive or negative or even rewarding. People don't just do things to feel good. People also do things to feel bad. And people do things for a thousand other reasons. But there's always a reason. At least I can't think of a single action wherein someone "just does" something. At least not the human species. Animals don't "just do" anything either. Plants? Well, even plants "do" for a reason.
    Maleika E. A. | Rockatee | Twitter | Dribbble



  9. #84
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    i do it because its how i am, its just me - i feel indifferent before/after the fact *shrug*
    You're not a computer Hazel. Computers do it because they are just computers.

    Understanding why you do things may not come obvious, especially if those things are small. But what if you said no when asked? Would you still feel indifferent?

    If you would feel indifferent regardless if you do it or not, then I must ask again why do you do it?

    If you would feel bad by turning people down, there's your motivation and reward. You want to be seen as an obliging person and you ensure that by helping people out.
    Saul

  10. #85
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Consider some of the reasons why SitePoint has the forum here in the first place.

    It provides cheap advertising for their books.
    It provides them with feedback both about existing books and what books might be worth producing in the future.
    It provides them with some possible authors for future books.
    It provides them with lots of information on what is happening in the industry.

    There are probably lots more ways in which SitePoint make money out of having the forum here.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    So you never do anything to "feel good about having done it" or "to fill in time between other tasks" or "to take a break from other things". A millionaire might do something to "give something back" to those that helped them to become a millionaire. Those are possible "payments" that some people expect from doing things for others. If you were not going to get something from doing it then you wouldn't do it.

    Even the feeling of having done what you expect of yourself is a payment of sorts.

    The other thing to consider iis that having done something for someone what will your reaction be when they ask you to do 1,000 times as much of the same for them. Would you continue doing it for them without changing the "price". If not then the price they have paid may be that they got it started and now have no way to finish it and so have to go back and start again having wasted their time. It isn't necessarily what you charge for doing something for someone, it can also be what they pay because you did it for them. Sometimes the "payment" is that they never get to learn how to do it themselves.

    Regardless of your reasons for doing things you need an income to live on and so you need to spend sufficiient time on activiities that actually bring in real money to be able to live before you can consider other activities that have non-financial benefits. For those who make part or all of their income from the internet getting enough money from their internet activitiies to live on takes priority and anything that they do would be expected to have some benefit to them financially even if iindirectly (such as helping others in order to advertise their services through word of mouth) or helping others in order to gather information to help decide on future developments of their work.
    felgall i never said that i didnt do things to obtain the feel good factor - of course i have done things to help people out and in turn i felt i did a good turn in helping them out of a difficult situation, etc and of course u have to earn money to live on - i never said i didnt agree with any of these points but what i did say is that when someone asks me to do something for them i say sure ok, prior to or on completion of this task there is nothing that is triggered to initiate a feel good factor or any response - its just automatic like sometimes its a given i do things for people i know as they know my form and how i am - there is nothing gained for me in those circumstances...

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek View Post
    Feeling obliged to do something is a motive. If you do something because someone requested it, there's your motive right there. An action is always followed by a reaction and vice versa. It's how the universe is setup, and we're part of that.

    The effect does not have to be positive or negative or even rewarding. People don't just do things to feel good. People also do things to feel bad. And people do things for a thousand other reasons. But there's always a reason. At least I can't think of a single action wherein someone "just does" something. At least not the human species. Animals don't "just do" anything either. Plants? Well, even plants "do" for a reason.
    i didnt say i felt obliged to do something at all, i said i am an obliging person its part of my make-up to help people out its just how i am - why is this so hard to believe? why cant a person be that easy going to just do something for someone and not have some "self gain" return for it whether its on a personal, professional or emotional level? somethings are just natural with people, its there or its how you were brought up...its like getting up in the morning and brushing ur teeth, sometimes u forget ur routine and u just do it, its the same with me on this instance

    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon View Post
    You're not a computer Hazel. Computers do it because they are just computers.

    Understanding why you do things may not come obvious, especially if those things are small. But what if you said no when asked? Would you still feel indifferent?

    If you would feel indifferent regardless if you do it or not, then I must ask again why do you do it?

    If you would feel bad by turning people down, there's your motivation and reward. You want to be seen as an obliging person and you ensure that by helping people out.
    of course i have said no to some things it depends on whats being asked of me and if i can do it or be depended on to do it - to be honest people who know me and ask me to do things for them are almost always something im very good at or something that i'll do in a smidgen of the time they would take doing it - like i said its automatic - its just how i am, its not difficult to comprehend - im not saying im superhuman there are loads of people out there that are like that

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    its like getting up in the morning and brushing ur teeth, sometimes u forget ur routine and u just do it, its the same with me on this instance
    And there's no self gain in brushing teeth?

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    why cant a person be that easy going to just do something for someone and not have some "self gain" return for it whether its on a personal, professional or emotional level?
    Because a person is a human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    of course i have said no to some things it depends on whats being asked of me and if i can do it or be depended on to do it - to be honest people who know me and ask me to do things for them are almost always something im very good at or something that i'll do in a smidgen of the time they would take doing it - like i said its automatic - its just how i am, its not difficult to comprehend - im not saying im superhuman there are loads of people out there that are like that
    So you're basically saying that if it's too small to see with naked eye, it doesn't exist.

    We all have values, adherence to which is our gain as "automatic" and natural to us as it is.
    Saul

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy
    for example, i am a very obliging person, people have said this to me before
    YOU are obliging, Hazel ?

    But anyway, reading over what everyone's been saying, I think we all mostly agree, but the problem we're having is something like this.

    (That's going to sound unrelated to anything until the end, but watch it anyway; it's interesting.)

    By the way, I'm still waiting on that sandwich

    Trying to fill the unforgiving minute
    with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

    Update on Sitepoint's Migration to Discourse

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    ok look - all im sayin is that i do things sometimes that dont have benefits for me or indeed never prompt any emotion whatsoever

    if for example someone asked me to type something up for them - im 125wpm so i'd say yeah ok sure, i just do it, its done and im thinkin about whats next on my agenda - when something comes natural to you, you do it regardless of who asked u, u just do it and thats it, now im not saying that u dont feel reward SOMETIMES u do again it depends on who it is and how you are helping them but it is very stubborn to not even consider and acknowledge the fact that u can do something to help someone and not get anything in return no matter what level it is on

    i am obliging shaun lol and saul will make u ur sandwich

    i didnt click that video btw......whats in the link?

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    but it is very stubborn to not even consider and acknowledge the fact that u can do something to help someone and not get anything in return no matter what level it is on
    *Sigh* I take it you didn't understand a word from my last post.

    Look...

    Joe: Can you type something up for me, Hazel?
    Hazel: Uhm, no even though I'm 125wpm I will not do it because I will not get anything in return.
    Joe: Fine! You meany, don't expect I will do anything for you!
    Hazel: Oh great, now I feel bad, why did I ever listen to that Saul.

    Can you see it now?
    Saul

  16. #91
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    mizwizzy, unless your a machine it's impossible to have a lack of emotion or emotional stasis, the fact is that humans change emotions on a regular basis on almost every action and reaction and the only difference is that most of the time we don't even know we do it. Anyone who claims they have ever made a decision or had the consequences of a decision without any emotion being involved is either lying to themselves or are simply in denial

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    But anyway, reading over what everyone's been saying, I think we all mostly agree, but the problem we're having is something like this.
    Haha, I've suspected it all along.
    Saul

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Anyone who claims they have ever made a decision or had the consequences of a decision without any emotion being involved is either lying to themselves or are simply in denial
    Or they don't know themselves well enough, which is often the case.
    Saul

  19. #94
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    if for example someone asked me to type something up for them - im 125wpm so i'd say yeah ok sure, i just do it
    I have a couple of thousand books I'd like to have copied onto my computer. Can you type them all in for me as I am sure with your typing speed you could do it in a few years less than it would take me to do it myself and there are lots of other things I can do with the time if you do that for me.
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  20. #95
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon View Post
    *Sigh* I take it you didn't understand a word from my last post.

    Look...

    Joe: Can you type something up for me, Hazel?
    Hazel: Uhm, no even though I'm 125wpm I will not do it because I will not get anything in return.
    Joe: Fine! You meany, don't expect I will do anything for you!
    Hazel: Oh great, now I feel bad, why did I ever listen to that Saul.

    Can you see it now?
    firstly i would never give that reason and id only think that if it was in a professional capacity - if i did say no to something u can be assured that i wouldnt have any qualms about saying it or nor would i feel any regret or think about that again, when i make a decision especially a no one thats it case closed, i would only think about it again if someone wanted me to talk about it and then thats another story entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    mizwizzy, unless your a machine it's impossible to have a lack of emotion or emotional stasis, the fact is that humans change emotions on a regular basis on almost every action and reaction and the only difference is that most of the time we don't even know we do it. Anyone who claims they have ever made a decision or had the consequences of a decision without any emotion being involved is either lying to themselves or are simply in denial
    its very audacious for you to even begin to presume what way a person thinks nevermind the way i do - i have shared my opinions on this matter and regardless of how hard you seem to find taking it up - thats how it is, im not a computer nor am i saying that im lacking human emotion of course i do feel and sometimes be a bit too sensitive but all this aside i can still help people and not think much of anything after the fact like i said before it can be automatic for me - thats how I feel and its how i am and it doesnt matter who quotes what to me there is no disputing how I am made up!

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    I have a couple of thousand books I'd like to have copied onto my computer. Can you type them all in for me as I am sure with your typing speed you could do it in a few years less than it would take me to do it myself and there are lots of other things I can do with the time if you do that for me.
    felgall - my answer to you would be no perhaps try an OCR program lol BUT for someone who knew me and my form my answer would probably be yes - it would make sense I would do it especially if that person didnt know anything about typing or whatever - id do it for nothing in return...

    Jeeze, its a real sorry case of affairs when people cant believe that u can do something without gaining anything in return on any level - ok can anyone answer me this - ur sitting at a dining room table about to have a meal with lots of friends around and theres a buzz and everyones talkin and stuff 100mph and ur friend next to u asked u can u open this jar of pickles for me and u just take it whilst talkin to someone else and u open it and give it back and thats it u continue on with ur conversation, u didnt think of that jar of pickles etc u just continued on with what u were doing as if it were automatic to do...... surely this scenario can make u see that there are instances where u can be immune to feelings and emotional rewards by helping someone out?!!

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    firstly i would never give that reason
    I see that I utterly failed to explain my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    ur sitting at a dining room table about to have a meal with lots of friends around and theres a buzz and everyones talkin and stuff 100mph and ur friend next to u asked u can u open this jar of pickles for me and u just take it whilst talkin to someone else and u open it and give it back and thats it u continue on with ur conversation, u didnt think of that jar of pickles etc u just continued on with what u were doing as if it were automatic to do...... surely this scenario can make u see that there are instances where u can be immune to feelings and emotional rewards by helping someone out?!!
    Again, my point that if it's small doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Same scenario - your worst enemy comes up and asks you the same. You hate him so much you could throw that jar right at their face. Do you open it for them? And please don't tell me you don't have enemies, that's beside the point.

    OK, even if you do this favor for them being obliging that you are, do you feel (or not feel as you say) exactly the same as you would do the same favor for your friend?

    Another angle to approach the issue. Have you ever thought why oh why people act so "automatically" as you say? Your explanation is because the way the are. The scientific explanation is because they are driven by motive, as small or reflexive as it is. Doesn't matter the slightest if you see it or not, or what you believe. It's just the way it is. You might as well believe that hamsters power up your car engine if you don't know how it works, but the real principle is different.
    Saul

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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    - i know what u are saying saul and i was just stating id never say something like what u used in ur example thats all - anyway regardless of that, back to what ur saying - if someone i didnt like asked me to open the jar for them they obviously dont know that i dont like them or its one of those scenarios where ur nice to someone even though you dont like them instances - so yes i would open the jar BUT on that particular instance I would agree I would feel a reaction after doing so because i didnt like them BUT my point was about doing it for someone i did like someone who knew me and knew my form and asked me to do something id just do it and not think anything of it - thats where i would be indifferent to it *shrugs* its like it wouldnt be a big deal or a small deal as you say - like as felgall was saying earlier to type up some books and stuff, sure id do it for a friend or someone i knew and vice versa, but because im such a good typist in this regard it would just be automatic to me, there is something gained of course for my friend who has their book typed up BUT not for me, there is no motive or intent or im doing it for a friend or im doing them a good turn feel good factor, i'd just do it, it could be a family member asking me to do something else either as trivial as helping bring in shopping bags or something, u just do it without thinking sometimes

    I can only speak for myself and how I am - for me science doesnt play a part in it sometimes u can just over analyze things that are just as simple as they are - u can think of all sorts of angles to disprove me but at the end of the day i am how i am and thats it

  23. #98
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    We're all human, Hazel, are you saying you're not?

    Just because you accept some things without rationalizing, it doesn't disprove the point that is very well known for those who seek for a rational explanation of things. I'm not trying to disprove your point - it's not wrong per se, only it's rather incomplete.

    Let me give you yet another example.

    If you were indifferent about doing certain tasks, you would be an easy victim of abuse for those who knew this about you. I know that's not the case, because you're a human just like me, and for instance, I know you wouldn't type out 1000s of books like felgall suggested. But if in fact you were indifferent about it, you would do it, because why not? If there's a reason why not, there must be are reason why to. If there's a reason why to - there's your motive.

    So tell me, are there things that you'd waste your life on (like typing thousands of books) being indifferent about it like a machine, as you say you are? Are you a typing machine, or perhaps a jar opener?

    And please don't argue with concrete cases again - we're talking of a pattern of human behavior here.
    Saul

  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    I agree, but sometimes I dont have a "why to" reason I just do it *sigh*

    ok ok I wont nit pick, u take away all my fun saul

    I have wasted time on lots of things that didnt mean anything to me, do u ever get urself into a frame of mind where you do act like a computer at times, u just are on automatic and things just happen? - its like a routine sometimes, i guess sometimes u become numb to certain things and perhaps a trigger is switched on inside you and u just become this other person - there is a fine line to this of course - i DO agree with u that we are driven by determination, motivation and intent at times but there are instances where none of these play a part - for me anyway, I DO hear what ur saying about delving deep down to find out why you feel like that but honestly thats just a whole other world entirely and were OT as it is and its not really gospel to say that those reasons if you found them out would be reasons of self gain - the answers are always simple and being the best judge of me, i know its just how I am

    Im not saying I would let someone take advantage of my good nature of course not....I am not stupid and I have done things before for my own gain and have been driven by intent and motive and whatnot however on a personal note I think we'll have to leave this issue as it is because next i think u'll want to conduct brain surgery to see why im thinkin like this and not "getting" ur point

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    do u ever get urself into a frame of mind where you do act like a computer at times, u just are on automatic and things just happen?
    Yes, certainly. But we're not machines programmed to do it, everything we do reflects our values and we all have a drive which works constantly with no interruptions, whether we're consciously aware of it or not.

    If you're trying to say that there are times when you shut down your values and drives, then I'd be afraid to be around you for who knows what you'd do that does not comply with your values.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    I DO hear what ur saying about delving deep down to find out why you feel like that but honestly thats just a whole other world entirely
    How many other worlds do you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    next i think u'll want to conduct brain surgery to see why im thinkin like this and not "getting" ur point


    I gotta say I'm quite aware of what your types are thinking. I'm afraid the problem might be with me failing to explain what I'm thinking
    Saul


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