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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Angry Webdesigner vs Webdesigner

    For want of a few interesting topics in General Chat I've decided to talk about something that has happened to me recently...

    Not so long ago I was asked a question by someone who was big into programming should they give web design a go? They said they didnt know much about design but they might use some 3rd party templates for that side of things.......I said sure go for it, what do u have to lose....... so they did

    BUT.....this is where it gets interesting and "buggy"....there was also a like minded web designer asked this same question......before i get into the nitty gritty part of that conversation I should also point out that im stubborn when it comes to what way i design a site...

    So anyway....I happened to mention my love of tables and it enraged this other person which in turn sent a chain reaction of disgust around the web lol I know its a depreciated form of code and Im not saying that I purely use this form of structuring always but i like them and i promote it especially to newbies, which is what I did.....

    Well, anyone who knows me on here will also know that this is no big surprise i.e. the tables issue...... but the reaction I got from this webdesigner was something of hatred, disgust and anger lol..... i found myself laughing at it but in the end i was bugged about it because they just did not let it go....they were on a crusade to annihilate anyone who uses tables or talks of them....There were 3 others who also shared this web designers opinion and also joined the table hatred posse....It was like they came out of nowhere and sure I was expecting a bit of agro over this but really going from someone asking an innocent question to turning it into a full blown argument over something so silly was ridiculous.....No one was going to change my mind on how i felt but this was the first time I ever really fought with a web designer and it was quite bizzare, petty and nasty. So it got me thinkin about here, maybe some of you out there have had similiar disagreements about the best way to design or had your head bitten off over something so silly like my situation - like...how do u deal with someone who basically says you know nothing about what ur talking about, I know everything me me me without slapping their face off??

    Seriously though, when it comes to web design....granted I dont know everything and there is always something to learn no matter who you are but there are some web designers out there that are on an ego trip/crusade and if you disagree with them in any way shape or form they are going to try to rip you apart in a heartbeat..... Is this purely down to personality? Because i know alot of web designers and none are like those people I am talkin about, do most web designers have crusades or a mean streak?

    So come on, anyone else have a story to share on ur experiences of egotistical web designers? We know they are out there

  2. #2
    SitePoint Enthusiast ravi_k47's Avatar
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    well i agree coz tables are not that good to use once you understand the concepts in div, its advantages. But ripping one apart is completely different. In my personal opinion thats bad for the team if you love ur job. there's another way, to we encourage and ask others to take risks rather than shouting.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizwizzy View Post
    how do u deal with someone who basically says you know nothing about what ur talking about, I know everything me me me without slapping their face off??
    i *plonk* the person

    nothing they ever post after that point gets a response from me -- it is as if they did not exist
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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravi_k47 View Post
    well i agree coz tables are not that good to use once you understand the concepts in div, its advantages. But ripping one apart is completely different. In my personal opinion thats bad for the team if you love ur job. there's another way, to we encourage and ask others to take risks rather than shouting.
    i dont want to get into a discussion about the tables issue i just like using them its just as simple as that but i do agree with the team playing point, especially when someone is asking for help..

    Quote Originally Posted by r937 View Post
    i *plonk* the person

    nothing they ever post after that point gets a response from me -- it is as if they did not exist
    Thats an interesting link, ive never heard of that before - my last words to them were basically that i wasnt going to say anything else because it just went onto an entirely different level and turned into a ridiculous rant...so me going to the extra effort of the "plonk" would be giving them too much of my time, but I do see the benefits if they did persist on and on I would definitely consider that, ty

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard bbolte's Avatar
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    i think it's just the way things are anymore. there's no middle ground for lots of people and if you disagree it's an affront to them personally. i'm sure it's everywhere, but i see that type of mindset a lot in the I.T. industry (oh and in politics ).

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbolte View Post
    i think it's just the way things are anymore. there's no middle ground for lots of people and if you disagree it's an affront to them personally. i'm sure it's everywhere, but i see that type of mindset a lot in the I.T. industry (oh and in politics ).
    lol we wont get onto that topic

    u are right, its not just with web designers even in our local computer store or various I.T departments Ive worked in, its like a "holier than thou" mentality its like they have a chip on both shoulders and they constantly have to make themselves out to be all knowing..sure in some circumstances they will know more than you but they are always lacking basic social skills to go with it! I'd like to think that maybe they are in the minority, but I dont think they are

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    That is the case everywhere where people are passionate about something - the emotions get involved. It's like saying to a mother that her child is ugly. When it comes to emotions, sadly, people tend to give up rational thinking, even if it's really one ugly child.
    Saul

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    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    yeah saul i understand how passionate you can be about something, but getting really emotional about web design is a bit over the top, like to be on a crusade about it is just a bit odd isnt it? Like when u think about it, even what they were saying to me about their ideas on webdesign, in a few years time is redundant as there is always something newer and better to come along...i think its just down to pure nastiness and jealousy at times but i take ur point nonetheless

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    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Nah, it's down to defending one's beliefs by all means necessary - you used the word "crusade" very rightfully. In which case you just tell them your opinions differ and never discuss it with them again.
    Saul

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    almost the same mindset with one of my friend in my 3d project, but my final word is 'result', client didn't have to see the process as long the final result satisfy them

  11. #11
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    The only problem with using layout tables with your web design is that IE7 and earlier don't understand that part of CSS and so you either end up with the page looking different for those visitors or have to use one of the alternate methods to get the page looking right for them (or were you talking about the incorrect use of HTML tables that the neandertals used back in their day to do primitive page layouts before the web started supporting CSS).
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  12. #12
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    Well, there are two points here; a) the criticism brought foward, and b) the way they communicated their criticism.

    So firstly, they are completely right and - in my mind - obliged to let fellow designers/programmers know of good practices should they be confronted with practices that are questionable or wrong.

    Secondly, the tone/attitude with which they have put forward their knowledge/ideas/critique is completely unecessary and uncalled for. You can be passionate about something without devaluing, mocking, and belittling someone else's opinion or efforts.
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon View Post
    Nah, it's down to defending one's beliefs by all means necessary - you used the word "crusade" very rightfully. In which case you just tell them your opinions differ and never discuss it with them again.
    I did tell them my opinions but because it did not adhere to their own beliefs the rant ensued, there was never going to be a constructive and happy ending to that conversation unfortunately, not when u have a gang of people or "clique" that were deadset on proving a point they just dont want to hear what u have to say

    I couldve quite easily also entered into the arguement and went back n forth for ages saying x, y and z but im above that childishness and I also still believe they were entitled to their opinion and like you said were entitled to express it, but in the end what i was saying is that its just them being mean - they werent showing any passion about what they were talkin about and just wanted me silenced

    Quote Originally Posted by balihost View Post
    almost the same mindset with one of my friend in my 3d project, but my final word is 'result', client didn't have to see the process as long the final result satisfy them
    Funny you say that, I also mentioned something along those lines but again this fell on deaf ears and only fuelled the rant more, lol its a no win situation

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    The only problem with using layout tables with your web design is that IE7 and earlier don't understand that part of CSS and so you either end up with the page looking different for those visitors or have to use one of the alternate methods to get the page looking right for them (or were you talking about the incorrect use of HTML tables that the neandertals used back in their day to do primitive page layouts before the web started supporting CSS).
    Its no secret that I do use tables for some of my layouts, I also use CSS and DIV but I still dont discount the use of tables, I do agree they are depreciated of course but still they do have a purpose for some people and the way some people go on about them you would swear they were the scum of the earth, its just ridiculous IMO....

    I agree with you on the cross browser issue, when I do use tables I make sure everything is displayed as is on all browsers and if its not like you pointed out you just choose something else that does work..... I communicated all of my opinions on this topic in a pleasant and coherent manner but because i mentioned tables and design it was just attack attack attack, and that was it - this is the part that bothered me, I had no problem having the conversation and hearing opinions but the manner in which they communicated it in was just nasty and it just surprised me

    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek View Post
    Well, there are two points here; a) the criticism brought foward, and b) the way they communicated their criticism.

    So firstly, they are completely right and - in my mind - obliged to let fellow designers/programmers know of good practices should they be confronted with practices that are questionable or wrong.

    Secondly, the tone/attitude with which they have put forward their knowledge/ideas/critique is completely unecessary and uncalled for. You can be passionate about something without devaluing, mocking, and belittling someone else's opinion or efforts.
    kohoutek - yes i agree the second part of ur breakdown was the main issue for me - the communication....they obviously didnt have any social skills to go with their "knowledge" but there were a few of them who also joined in and in the same fashion of attack...they also knew some web development and it got me thinkin about whether its an issue with the stereotypical nerd sitting alone infront of their computer coding away without any human interaction that may have produced this below average response from them... of course I myself would be classed as a nerd but of a higher standard lol.... but these guys well I dont know, they were lacking alot of social etiquette lets say..

  14. #14
    Mazel tov! bronze trophy kohoutek's Avatar
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    mizwizzy, I'd classify that as mobbing behaviour. One person acts that way and a few other jump on the same wagon. It's ugly and - had it been me - I'd have told them thanks for the conversation and would have ended it right then and there. I see no need to take verbal abuse over something like this.

    However, I'd also like to say that I don't think this is a trend with designers, or any other field. People are people. Everywhere. You just happened to be unfortunate in that regard. Even here on Sitepoint you'll find plenty of highly knowledgeable people who have very strong opinions on the subjects they're passionate about, but it very rarely becomes personal. And it shouldn't.
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  15. #15
    Keep Moving Forward gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    Shaun(OfTheDead)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon
    That is the case everywhere where people are passionate about something - the emotions get involved. It's like saying to a mother that her child is ugly. When it comes to emotions, sadly, people tend to give up rational thinking, even if it's really one ugly child.
    That post was nice like a pie, Saul'

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  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kohoutek View Post
    mizwizzy, I'd classify that as mobbing behaviour. One person acts that way and a few other jump on the same wagon. It's ugly and - had it been me - I'd have told them thanks for the conversation and would have ended it right then and there. I see no need to take verbal abuse over something like this.

    However, I'd also like to say that I don't think this is a trend with designers, or any other field. People are people. Everywhere. You just happened to be unfortunate in that regard. Even here on Sitepoint you'll find plenty of highly knowledgeable people who have very strong opinions on the subjects they're passionate about, but it very rarely becomes personal. And it shouldn't.
    yeah kohoutek, i did walk away from it and i wasnt going to enter into an argument about what they were talking about but even after i stopped talkin about it and moved on there was still the ongoing rant and back biting which was unnecessary.......i thought it wouldnt bug me but it did, but as you say its just down to people, im not saying all web designers are anti-social and are all part of a rant brigade, i know a good few web designers who are very pleasant and I enjoy talking with them, but I just thought that like someone who did appear knowledgable in their area and did have some valid points showed intellect but lacked the very basics in manners and courtesy, it just baffles me that people can be so petty no matter what their age is

  17. #17
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    I once lost my calm with someone I've known for years... but that was because he was coding sites in FrontPage that didn't validate, didn't work properly outside Internet Explorer and he was selling the work for $1,000 a piece to individuals who upon examining their businesses wouldn't have known any better. When I confronted him about it he said "I can't be wrong, people are paying me". Granted I can usually get pretty heated on stuff (I always moan with people I know about best practices, though I keep it friendly!). But that one incident just made me so mad that he was claiming himself as an expert and was selling junk to the highest bidder (as far as I am concerned it's fraud) I disassociated myself with him as quickly as possible.

  18. #18
    Keep Moving Forward gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    Well if he was selling junk why should that get you upset?

    I'm guessing that by contrast you were selling jewels! The path should have been wide open for you to blow him out of the sky, if he was really that bad.


    Build yours properly and sell 'em at $2,000 a piece! If you know better, out-do him.

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  19. #19
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    Well if he was selling junk why should that get you upset?
    I will be the first to admit I am not an industry leader so I don't always get it right but what upsets me is that people are essentially getting swindled out of money by a cowboy builder who is falsely claiming his credentials as a professional... granted theres a lot of scam work out there but it doesn't stop me getting upset at the fact that those kind of people give us all a bad name. That and unlike the individual I mentioned, I actually care about the industry and the craft of building websites.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy mizwizzy's Avatar
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    I can understand what youre saying Alex in terms of quality and good practices - I agree with you of course u have to deliver the best at all times not some half done piece of junk - this does not last in the long run and in the end gives u a bad name - I always give one hundred percent to any project I undertake no matter how big or small but there are those "cowboys/girls" out there that dont really care and only wanna generate some big $$$'s - and they do!

    But anyway my issue in the original post was the whole etiquette I guess, and I know its mostly down to maybe having a bad day or perhaps that individual(s) being a nasty piece of work but I just found it surprising going from someone asking an opinion on whether or not to web design to turning it into a full blown argument about the best practices etc..its enough to put anyone off

    @ jewels, i guess shaun we've all been there - viewing so called professional websites that cost the buyer hundreds of pounds when infact you couldve done better for a margin of the original price...i think this will always be the case....


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