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  1. #51
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Yes, Zend Framework may appear very complex to a newbie (it did to me, too) but once you get used to it you will appreciate its flexibility.

    I have been using ZF for at most one year now (I think, don't remember exactly) and I have already coded 2 large and pretty complex websites, I also successfully used it in few small projects.

    I really like Zend and so far I have no plans to use any other framework. Zend has increased my productivity dramatically.

  2. #52
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    Seriously blue, you need to calm yourself... no one likes a fanatic... If you like CI awesome. Use it... Arguing about which framework is better highly subjective and everyone is entitled to there opinions. There is no "best"... There are parts of ZF that may be better than CI parts of Symfony that maybe better than ZF parts of CakePHP that maybe better than Symfony. In the end all that matters is the job gets done. You get a pay check.
    Creativity knows no other restraint than the
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    Oh baby! Check out the design patterns on that framework!

  3. #53
    dooby dooby doo silver trophybronze trophy
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    discuss by all means - thats good

    Please try and avoid namecalling and derogatory remarks as it doesnt help you get a point across and will result in the thread being closed.
    (which I dont want as its quite interesting!)
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....

  4. #54
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    I only called the guy idot because he was repeating stuff we had already gone over.

    Whats the point of saying zend framework is good at separation of responsibilities when so are the other framework.

  5. #55
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    The point was to help explain to you where you went wrong in your argument. If you're unable to carry on a debate like an adult, then don't bother.

  6. #56
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    cause the anwser was stupied.

    Just saying somethign is flexaible or uses design patterns does not mean the others don't.

    Other frameworks do things a lot better than ZF.

  7. #57
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Other frameworks do things a lot better than ZF.
    You haven't demonstrated that at all. You have just shown us that ZF uses much more classes per functionality but you failed to prove any causality between amount of classes and flexibility.

    Plus you haven't also made any real point besides the number of classes thing. You haven't shown us why the way ZF does it is worse than others and what design patterns they use incorrectly.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyon View Post
    Other frameworks do things a lot better than ZF.
    Show proof. This is all we've been asking for. Until you can back up your claims, they remain baseless.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by risoknop View Post
    You haven't demonstrated that at all. You have just shown us that ZF uses much more classes per functionality but you failed to prove any causality between amount of classes and flexibility.

    Plus you haven't also made any real point besides the number of classes thing. You haven't shown us why the way ZF does it is worse than others and what design patterns they use incorrectly.
    You know you could probably just remove a bunch of the zend auto loader features dump all the contents of every file in to one huge mamba jamba of a something or other... and you'd have 1 file... Since its just one file it must be the best flippin framework ever! Case the number of files seem to determine a frameworks abilities ...

    Soo...after all this hubub over CI I downloaded it and read through some of the source and about all I can see is its a light weight framework. It doesn't do a whole lot. Which has its value but there is something to say about a framework that does alot. For instance Zend Auth, Zend Config, Zend Form, -- yah yah... its slow as hell but it has its value. Out of the box CI doesn't seem to have an auth class, which is one of the most re-invented pieces of code ever. And since Zend Auth makes use of the adapater pattern if you don't like the classes they give you make your own... But out of the box it works pretty nicely. CI doesn't handle ini or xml config files out of the box so you'll either write your own classes or use Zend_Config since it kinda does the job already... And thats the beauty of ZF, its not a full stack framework. So you can pull packages you like and use them however you need to. I'm toying around with the idea of using Zend DB with symfony cause I can't stand doctrine or propel...

    Is the Zend Framework better designed its subjective. In some ways the Zend Framework is better designed and anyone with formal computer science background might appreciate some of its features. But its slow as hell and requires heavy customization to bring out its performance, both hardware and software. I might be willing to use CI on a small application just for fun, but for larger applications where performance isn't of grave importance I'd probably use the Zend Framework. For a quick little application for my boss because he has some stupid idea -- and I mean that in the most respectful sense >.> -- I'd use Symfony cause it makes with the rapid application development well rapid... If I needed a framework that ran on a server that only supports PHP4 I'd choose CI or Cake.

    In short it doesn't matter what framework you use. They are just tools. Just tools. Sure you can have a favorite, but don't be so short sighted -- or blinded by prejudice -- that you can't see the potential of other frameworks.
    Creativity knows no other restraint than the
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    Geekly Humor
    Oh baby! Check out the design patterns on that framework!

  10. #60
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    Zend Auth, Zend Form

    are not required.

    This is some of the bloat I'm talking about.

    First of Zend Auth. There are so many different ways authorization may need to be configured. Its pointless adding something like this class in when it can't possibly cover every base. Even using it to extend from. Its not hard to create a login system whatever the system uses for authorization.

    Zend Form aswell. Its completly pointless having this. Its so simple to manage forms and the post data as well as validation without having to build a class for each form element. Its like trying to be overly clever with something that requires simple solutions.

  11. #61
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    First of Zend Auth. There are so many different ways authorization may need to be configured.
    That's why you use Zend_Acl and Zend_Auth together

    You can do very complex authorization systems with this combination.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyon View Post
    Zend Auth, Zend Form

    are not required.

    This is some of the bloat I'm talking about.

    First of Zend Auth. There are so many different ways authorization may need to be configured. Its pointless adding something like this class in when it can't possibly cover every base. Even using it to extend from. Its not hard to create a login system whatever the system uses for authorization.

    Zend Form aswell. Its completly pointless having this. Its so simple to manage forms and the post data as well as validation without having to build a class for each form element. Its like trying to be overly clever with something that requires simple solutions.
    For large scale applications where you dealing with multiple forms and hundreds of form fields, Zend Forms bloat might be well appreciated. Zend Auth as well. In most cases Zend Auth does the job, but in the rare case where you need heavy customization, you can easily create your own authentication class. I'm not saying the Zend Framework is perfect. Zend Form is annoying to work with. But it comes in handy when you need a simple way of dealing with incredibly large forms with complex filtering and validation chains. But still if you don't want to use Zend Auth or Zend Form don't use it... rm -rf Zend/Form Zend/Auth if you don't need it or won't ever use it. Thats the beauty in a glue framework. Pick and chose which parts you want to use get rid of what you don't.
    Creativity knows no other restraint than the
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    Oh baby! Check out the design patterns on that framework!

  13. #63
    SitePoint Addict SirAdrian's Avatar
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    I've been holding off on replying, somewhat for the entertainment factor this thread has brought, but I'll reply to a few points.

    1) Zend Framework is bloated. Yes, it's pretty darn slow sometimes. However, it's meant for much more complicated applications and it IS overkill in a lot of the cases it's used. Bloated is subjective to what you want... the whole point of the framework is a very high level of flexibility. If you do not need that, then yeah... of course something simpler will suffice.

    2) Code Igniter is better. Let's move on.

    3) Zend Form is awful. Okay, now here is where I think you are really far off. This is my my favorite part of the framework, by FAR. This thing is a beast to learn, but once you understand how it works it's very satisfying to use. Styling can be a bit difficult with the decorators, but once you figure them out it's great.

    On a side note, I've gotten along fine with the default decorators, and they were very easy to style with CSS to look how I want. When you have much more complex form designs to implement, you do NOT have to render the whole form. Do your view script exactly how you want, and you can substitute in some of the form attributes, and the form elements separately.

    If you don't need this component, don't use it. I've had to use it on some pretty intense form implementations, and it made them a breeze to set up.

    4. Other frameworks do ____ better. Great, use those components then. I remember nearly crying at the results of Zend_Lucene, but I was able to swap out and use Sphinx instead and the tears turned to laughter. There are no limitations.




    We've taken many of the components (db, cache, form, controller action, router, acl, auth, config, etc.) further and have made tons of customizations. It is so easy to modify, and you really do have control over every little detail of how the application functions because you can extend nearly any class you want and use it in the system. Yes, this does make it slower. CPU time is cheap, development time is expensive.
    Adrian Schneider - Web Developer

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirAdrian View Post
    2) Code Igniter is better. Let's move on.
    Let's not and lets explain
    Creativity knows no other restraint than the
    confines of a small mind.
    - Me
    Geekly Humor
    Oh baby! Check out the design patterns on that framework!

  15. #65
    SitePoint Addict SirAdrian's Avatar
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    Every time I pick up Code Igniter, I'm turned off because it's a total mess. It's riddled with global functions and what I would consider to be very little organization. I used it for about 3 months, and gave it a fair trial, so I'm not totally bias either.

    It has it's uses. I'd probably still use it for small projects where I want to throw up a site real quick. I still don't think it's anywhere near comparable to ZFW though.
    Adrian Schneider - Web Developer

  16. #66
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    Wait so you were being facetious? O.o... I'm so confused ._.
    Creativity knows no other restraint than the
    confines of a small mind.
    - Me
    Geekly Humor
    Oh baby! Check out the design patterns on that framework!

  17. #67
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    He was, imaginethis

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirAdrian View Post
    Every time I pick up Code Igniter, I'm turned off because it's a total mess. It's riddled with global functions and what I would consider to be very little organization. I used it for about 3 months, and gave it a fair trial, so I'm not totally bias either.

    It has it's uses. I'd probably still use it for small projects where I want to throw up a site real quick. I still don't think it's anywhere near comparable to ZFW though.
    Ask me ...
    I make 3-4 projects with CI and I thing I had to pass to cakephp as I wanted to....
    Now I use Yii and I liked it,you can see the difference at form validation and active record code...

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirAdrian View Post
    Every time I pick up Code Igniter, I'm turned off because it's a total mess. It's riddled with global functions and what I would consider to be very little organization. I used it for about 3 months, and gave it a fair trial, so I'm not totally bias either.

    It has it's uses. I'd probably still use it for small projects where I want to throw up a site real quick. I still don't think it's anywhere near comparable to ZFW though.
    How can you say this when ZF is a glue framework and is a lot more messy than CI.

    Look i vote for light weight classes dedcated to the job they were created for then a bloated big everything type of approch. Its called KISS.

  20. #70
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    How can you say this when ZF is a glue framework and is a lot more messy than CI.
    Glue framework <> messy. The point he was making is that CI uses global functions and other outdated practices.

    The main reason why CI's code looks like mess is because it still supports PHP 4 which of course, in these days is completely obsolete.

  21. #71
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrrms View Post
    Symfony seems like it might be a pain to get up and running, but I guess I won't know for sure until I dive in.
    Download the Symfony sandbox.

    Drop it somewhere on a web server.

    Setup complete! Live application running.

    Just because Symfony has configuration doesn't mean there's complex setup. It does just work out of the box. And just because Symfony has a command line tool doesn't mean you have to use it -- it just automates common tasks, like setting up a directory structure for a new application. You can just as easily copy the directories of an existing application/module to create a new one.

    I think more people should be taking a look at Symfony, especially those that think CI/CakePHP offer too little, but aren't sold on Zend either. You can drop Zend components into Symfony if you want, or anything else really. I've now built two large scale projects with Symfony, with over 30000 users on the two apps and tens of millions of page views a month.

    It does what it's supposed to -- makes my life developing, maintaining and extending these apps quicker and easier.

    Also check out Symfony Components -- standalone PHP libraries you can drop into any app -- YAML handler, event dispatcher, dependency injection and templating.

  22. #72
    SitePoint Addict SirAdrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyon View Post
    How can you say this when ZF is a glue framework and is a lot more messy than CI.

    Look i vote for light weight classes dedcated to the job they were created for then a bloated big everything type of approch. Its called KISS.
    Zend's code is very organized. Maybe too organized... but organized nonetheless. They have a ton of standards which they follow, and you can always expect where to find something (the class name to file mapping helps too).

    KISS? "CI is ridiculously bloated and over engineered. I much prefer to use a single PHP script" . It depends on your needs. If your needs aren't as great, then that doesn't mean you have to mock something bigger because it provides more features. In Zend, you are given the choice to use which components you need. This does keep it simple. In fact, it's never any more complicated than you need it to be because you can pick and choose components.

    Like I said, I've used CI on a few sites and I don't think it's a bad framework. My needs were greater, that's all. On some sites, I still use other frameworks or home made solutions... it depends on your needs.
    Adrian Schneider - Web Developer

  23. #73
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    thanks, Dan. i'll try to give symfony a shot this weekend. hopefully I won't be drowning in YAML

  24. #74
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    "CI is ridiculously bloated and over engineered"

    How **** can you say code igniter is bloated when zend uses 41 classes for a controller?

    I think in your last statement you just lied which proves to me you will make anything up to prove a point. Maybe you even work for Zend?

    This just proves my argument when I said there is something wrong with the people that are for ZF.

    I don't think you've used CI for anything! and I think your an amature!

    Code igniter does a few things I don't like but ZF uses static methods which are virtual the same as using globals.

    Remember I'm not really pushing CI its just a framework I'm comparing ZF's bad pratises against. I would never use ZF or code igniter because any class I required I would build from scratch. I know how to make any class I need and I can make it light weight and optimised. This might be another talking point that people use frameworks because they don't have the experience or skill to write light weight optimised code!

  25. #75
    SitePoint Addict SirAdrian's Avatar
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    CI is ridiculously bloated and over engineered. I much prefer to use a single PHP script" .
    was a facetious reply to "KISS"
    Adrian Schneider - Web Developer


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