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  1. #26
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    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    • Computer Science
    • Counter-Strike (Game)
    • Creative Suite (Adobe)
    • C Sharp (C#)
    • ChanServ (IRC)

    Take your pick
    that's definately amusing

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by K358 View Post
    PC Technician, Help Desk Tier 1/2:
    • 27,500-43,250
    Network Admin, Webmaster, Programmer, Analyst, etc:
    • 46,400-72,100
    Senior Admin, Systems Engineer/Security, Database Developer, etc:
    • 55,200-101,700
    I think that I need to move to another country... you don't see those salaries around here... divide them by 2

    Quote Originally Posted by K358
    I am more into Windows progrmaming though, not so much web programming. But I don't know alot about web programming, so that may change once I start learning how to use the technology correctly.
    Programming is abstract. If you know how to program, you can learn any language and be proficient with it.

    That doesn't mean that it is easy. Learning the tricks and workarounds of a particular language comes with experience and knowing the type of objects you're dealing with (which is the biggest difference between desktop programming and web programming), but it is not that hard if you know the basis.

    The thing is that you don't seem convinced. You have a general idea of what you want and what you don't want but that's about it. You know that you want a decent pay and not too much pressure but you are uncertain which job... so look for jobs that offer just that type of life.

    The case of your friend (the one working at the hospital) is unsual. You don't get paid that much just to introduce blood samples in a computer so she's not a reference, but a lucky case.

  3. #28
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Programming is abstract. If you know how to program, you can learn any language and be proficient with it.
    I disagree.

    Programming is too broad a term to describe what many of us do. If I am a phenomenal Java programmer does that mean I am capable of programming a route planner of London in Prolog? If I am great at writing Bioinformatics algorithms in R does that mean I am capable of writing a Blog engine in PHP? If I can write a 3D graphics engine for the SNES does it mean I can write an ASP.NET application to manage a hotel reservation system using VB.NET, T-SQL and Stored Procedures? Absolutely not, and nor are you any more capable of doing so.

    I maintain the belief that Programming is one of the strangest trades to take, being a unique mash-up of academic foundations and practical know-how, where Biologists, Chemists, Physicists, Computer Scientists, Doctors and casual users can perform the "same" work, yet create something completely different for unique purposes in their respective fields. It is also one of very few fields where someone can enter with no prior knowledge and create something truly remarkable.

    Despite this, certain types of programming have their entry levels. I could never expect someone to be able to write a weighted learning algorithm in Mathematica as their first task in programming or any other related discipline, although I would expect them to be able to create a simple dynamic web page in most web-oriented programming languages/frameworks. It all depends on where you wish to draw the line. If you want to write algorithms for protein folding then you're going to struggle with an IT degree or even a CS degree without being a minor in Biology. I'd argue that if your ambitions lie within Web Design/Development then university isn't necessary as an academic setting will teach you less in 3-4 years than a year in a corporate setting will.

  4. #29
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    I am finishing my bachelor interactive media... and let me tell you.. they not teach specifics.. they teach you fundementals which will (almost) never change.... OOP / UML / Normalisation / Semantics and try to make you think beyond the actual coding.

    Besides that.. you still need to do it on your own and learn the specifics PHP, Ruby, AS whatever you want by yourself...

    Also it provides a great way to get some contacts in the industry and build up experience + portfolio. Do it right and there will be no shortage of jobs for you after finishing it.

    Basically for me it has been the best thing ever for me... now at the end i realize it only though.. I have gotten a much wider view on not just programming but webdevelopment as a whole...

    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    Now, some would say that programming in itself is a trade as there is no shortage of fantastic programmers that have worked their way through the ranks without a degree, and billions of awful programmers that have excelled in academics. However, a full grounding in the concepts and fundamentals of Computer Science has helped these programmers further their trade skills. Very few self-taught programmers can do this unless they've studied CS fundamentals. In the same vein very few Mechanics will move into the world of Formula 1 without relevant experience, in a classroom or on-the-job. What people forget is that within the next five years everything is going to change! If you've spent your time learning ASP.NET at university Microsoft will come out with something new and then your time has been spent learning something that is already out of date, and with academia being so far behind the corporate world you're probably learning something that's already out of date. Fundamental subjects don't change all that much, and anything that does change is hammered into you during your last years at university and throughout your entire professional career.

    I suppose what I'm saying is why waste money learning something you can learn by yourself? The degree itself is nothing more than a sheet of paper, so you could get a sheet of paper that works well now but won't last, or a general sheet of normal paper that will keep its quality for a long time.
    Go visit my site you know you want to
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  5. #30
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    i think it is a bad idea especially with the indians willing to work for three bucks an hour. However if you can use it to your own entrepreneurial benefit, you can do really well

  6. #31
    John 8:24 JREAM's Avatar
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    There are some of us who love our jobs I myself would probably work for a company but I have my own ambitions to chase after for now, and its a lot of fun trying new things.

    Many projects get really stale like fixing sites made in MS Front Page, but with every job there is probably something crappy about it. Besides it's some more money too.

    You should do what you enjoy doing, if you start in web-based stuff you can always expand with newly learned skills to. Maybe Adobe Air will pickup and you can write desktop software with a lot of your already know language set.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    I disagree.

    Programming is too broad a term to describe what many of us do. If I am a phenomenal Java programmer does that mean I am capable of programming a route planner of London in Prolog? If I am great at writing Bioinformatics algorithms in R does that mean I am capable of writing a Blog engine in PHP? If I can write a 3D graphics engine for the SNES does it mean I can write an ASP.NET application to manage a hotel reservation system using VB.NET, T-SQL and Stored Procedures? Absolutely not, and nor are you any more capable of doing so.

    I maintain the belief that Programming is one of the strangest trades to take, being a unique mash-up of academic foundations and practical know-how, where Biologists, Chemists, Physicists, Computer Scientists, Doctors and casual users can perform the "same" work, yet create something completely different for unique purposes in their respective fields. It is also one of very few fields where someone can enter with no prior knowledge and create something truly remarkable.

    Despite this, certain types of programming have their entry levels. I could never expect someone to be able to write a weighted learning algorithm in Mathematica as their first task in programming or any other related discipline, although I would expect them to be able to create a simple dynamic web page in most web-oriented programming languages/frameworks. It all depends on where you wish to draw the line. If you want to write algorithms for protein folding then you're going to struggle with an IT degree or even a CS degree without being a minor in Biology. I'd argue that if your ambitions lie within Web Design/Development then university isn't necessary as an academic setting will teach you less in 3-4 years than a year in a corporate setting will.
    I will not drift from the thread much. The cases you're exposing needs a knowledge that it is not related to programming. The analisys of the problem itself may need of an extra knowledge, and that's something completely different. But that happens always: if I create a software to play chess, I will need to learn chess first in order to be able to do so. If I then decide that I want to create a software to play rugby, then I will need to learn about rugby.

    You don't need a programming language to analyse a problem and give it a solution. You need a programming language to build an algorithm that will make the computer solve similar problems by itself in the future (or take some kind of action). And you can do so in any programming language.

    As I said, it is not easy to change from one language to another. Each programming language was created with a particular goal in mind and what's easy to do in one language, may be hard to do in another.

    Going back to topic, the thing is that you need a job that satisfies your needs but that you like, too. Because if you take a job that you hate, you'll end up feeling miserable.

    And that's simply what I am saying, if you're unsure that you will like this, if you don't want to do web after web after web... then maybe it is not the job for you.

    Now, if you see each project as a possibility of learning something new (even if you do the same type of work, each customer is different and their needs are different too, even if they may be similar), go ahead.

  8. #33
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech7 View Post
    I am finishing my bachelor interactive media... and let me tell you.. they not teach specifics.. they teach you fundementals which will (almost) never change.... OOP / UML / Normalisation / Semantics and try to make you think beyond the actual coding.

    Besides that.. you still need to do it on your own and learn the specifics PHP, Ruby, AS whatever you want by yourself...

    Also it provides a great way to get some contacts in the industry and build up experience + portfolio. Do it right and there will be no shortage of jobs for you after finishing it.

    Basically for me it has been the best thing ever for me... now at the end i realize it only though.. I have gotten a much wider view on not just programming but webdevelopment as a whole...
    Whilst paradigms is a good thing to learn practices like UML are already dying. In my view universities shouldn't be teaching these things, only notifying and assisting those that will need to do this. My university spent an entire year teaching us subjects like XML and UML instead of fundamentals like Data Structures and Algorithms and we're all going to suffer from it, apart from the local companies that want a code monkey and nothing more.

    Yes, Interactive Media will probably land you a job, but these are harsh times. The best way to maximise your ability to land a job is to take a general subject, as a Computer Science graduate can land a larger number of jobs than any other IT graduate. They'll find it harder, but their subject has geared them up for this broad subject and they'll have to work their asses off to learn the practical subjects they require.

    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    I will not drift from the thread much. The cases you're exposing needs a knowledge that it is not related to programming. The analisys of the problem itself may need of an extra knowledge, and that's something completely different. But that happens always: if I create a software to play chess, I will need to learn chess first in order to be able to do so. If I then decide that I want to create a software to play rugby, then I will need to learn about rugby.

    You don't need a programming language to analyse a problem and give it a solution. You need a programming language to build an algorithm that will make the computer solve similar problems by itself in the future (or take some kind of action). And you can do so in any programming language.

    As I said, it is not easy to change from one language to another. Each programming language was created with a particular goal in mind and what's easy to do in one language, may be hard to do in another.

    Going back to topic, the thing is that you need a job that satisfies your needs but that you like, too. Because if you take a job that you hate, you'll end up feeling miserable.

    And that's simply what I am saying, if you're unsure that you will like this, if you don't want to do web after web after web... then maybe it is not the job for you.

    Now, if you see each project as a possibility of learning something new (even if you do the same type of work, each customer is different and their needs are different too, even if they may be similar), go ahead.
    Those are quite simplistic views of the breadth of knowledge some need for their systems. I agree completely that a knowledge of the system is essential, but in many cases for a number of programming languages this knowledge comes mixed in with other fields, such as Prolog and Lisp. To get the most out of these languages you'll need to learn AI, a subject a lot of CS students and programmers struggle with due to its multi-discipline roots. Those that can write an efficient ANN will probably have a decent amount of knowledge on Knowledge Representation and Artificial Epistemology. These aren't journeyman skills, these are academic.

    The big problem with education right now is that universities are diluting their subjects to pander to the desires of the corporate world, another reason why only the top graduates from the top schools are landing the top jobs. It's not a class thing, it's the fact that these schools could fill their allocations tenfold and will never need to adjust their curriculum to make the business world happy. An up-rise in these subjects is a direct response to the corporate requirement for these jobs and as I've said before you'll learn more after one year of working in a corporate setting than three/four years of university. Hell, a dedicated year of work in a freelance setting will teach you far more than a university ever could in these trade skills. If you really think you're missing out all you need to do is monitor their programme structures and reading lists and build this knowledge in your own time.

  9. #34
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    you dont need a degree... a waste of time...

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    Actually it's really minimal... they not focus on details too much the subjects are very wide... Interaction design, Design, Programming, Business managment, Marketing, Concept... and in the later years you can decide for yourself on what you want to specialize in...

    In then end you are free to develop the skill you interested in... the study is only some extra motivation to keep on learning... and meet some new people.. and get new insights.

    Sitting at home reading, learning, experimenting is still what it's about if you really wanna learn the programming itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    Whilst paradigms is a good thing to learn practices like UML are already dying. In my view universities shouldn't be teaching these things, only notifying and assisting those that will need to do this. My university spent an entire year teaching us subjects like XML and UML instead of fundamentals like Data Structures and Algorithms and we're all going to suffer from it, apart from the local companies that want a code monkey and nothing more...
    Go visit my site you know you want to
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  11. #36
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech7 View Post
    Actually it's really minimal... they not focus on details too much the subjects are very wide... Interaction design, Design, Programming, Business managment, Marketing, Concept... and in the later years you can decide for yourself on what you want to specialize in...

    In then end you are free to develop the skill you interested in... the study is only some extra motivation to keep on learning... and meet some new people.. and get new insights.

    Sitting at home reading, learning, experimenting is still what it's about if you really wanna learn the programming itself.
    In that case, do you feel that university is worth it? I believe that education is something that doesn't stop after three years, so in that sense would you say that these differing subjects will ever be put into use? Also, if you were to spend that tuition money on sustaining your own learning do you think that you'll gain more or lose more?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    In that case, do you feel that university is worth it? I believe that education is something that doesn't stop after three years, so in that sense would you say that these differing subjects will ever be put into use? Also, if you were to spend that tuition money on sustaining your own learning do you think that you'll gain more or lose more?
    Everybody has their own opinion of course but for me sure it's worth it... I agree education never stops, definitely in this industry we keep on learning and it is impossible to master it all..

    Some of these subjects I will never use.. and some of them I will... but learning about other aspects can give you other insights and try to see the bigger picture...

    I know in US it's different but tuition fees in the Netherlands are pretty cheap around 1500 Euro a year... Hard to get any courses for that kind of money.

    The study provides some contacts with the business world and thinking and creating real projects... and doing internships within established companies.

    I feel that study is a great experience.. but it's what you make of it. Not only about learning programming or design but also learn about life, this is where you can screw up and experiment as much as you want... as it's all a learning experience... in the working world you just don't have enough time for this in between deadlines working on projects.
    Go visit my site you know you want to
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  13. #38
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mech7 View Post
    I know in US it's different but tuition fees in the Netherlands are pretty cheap around 1500 Euro a year... Hard to get any courses for that kind of money.
    ...Damn you.

    In the UK we pay around 3,500 a year for pretty shocking education. Sadly our government has pushed so many people into higher education that a degree means next to nothing here.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    practices like UML are already dying.
    Have to butt in with a burning Q - ULTiMATE, why do you say UML is dying?

    I'm learning OOP (Java, AS3, PHP blah) and have done a nightclass in UML to help it all along.... it was very dry but the discipline definitely helps you put your code/thoughts in order.

    We covered class & object diagrams, use-cases and sequence diagrams, but I understand UML is a LOT bigger than just this... so what would you use instead? For starters, how else would you document or plan OO code if not with UML ?

    thanks,
    tootle.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecomatrix View Post
    you dont need a degree... a waste of time...
    Not a waste of time. My salary is a proof.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tootle View Post
    Have to butt in with a burning Q - ULTiMATE, why do you say UML is dying?

    I'm learning OOP (Java, AS3, PHP blah) and have done a nightclass in UML to help it all along.... it was very dry but the discipline definitely helps you put your code/thoughts in order.

    We covered class & object diagrams, use-cases and sequence diagrams, but I understand UML is a LOT bigger than just this... so what would you use instead? For starters, how else would you document or plan OO code if not with UML ?

    thanks,
    tootle.
    UML is definitely not dying! I hope he would at least design first then code. Only place that does not use UML are the place where they code first then design. Of course, you'll not use every UML element but Class and Sequence Diagaram is a must!

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    In the UK we pay around 3,500 a year for pretty shocking education. Sadly our government has pushed so many people into higher education that a degree means next to nothing here.
    And it's only got worse with the recession, more people out of work retraining and getting into more debt to do so. I have seen a sharp rise in people I know who are hobbyist geeks going to get a degree to change careers. As if there wasn't enough competition as it was the industry is going to get flooded in 3-4 years

  18. #43
    is craving 'the potato' slayerment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecomatrix View Post
    you dont need a degree... a waste of time...
    This

  19. #44
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    Well for what its worth here is a list of classes required. The end result I will get is a "Degree of Applied Science" in my program. So I don't know if that's the computer science degree you were talking about but I don't see any programs for "Computer Science" at my school, or any of the schools around here.

    Intro to VB Dot Net Programming
    Relational Database Developement
    Website Development-XHTML/CSS
    Intro to Java Programming
    Intermediate Visual Basic Dot Net
    Relational Database Programming
    Object-Oriented Design with UML
    Advanced Java Programming
    Advanced Website Development
    ASP Dot Net
    Object-Oriented Systems Analysis
    Enterprise Java Programming
    Enterprise Relational Database Programming and Design

    --
    Written Communication
    Oral Communcation
    Mathmatics using Logic
    Ethics
    Economics
    Sociology
    Psychology

    They are all 17 week classes meeting several times a week. When I complete these I will be taking about a dozen courses on Computer Hardware/Network Servicing, and also a 2 year Network Specialist program.

    I am lucky here because my entire schooling is 100% paid for. Books, tools, are also paid for, and I even received a brand new PC with 23' Wide Screen HD DVI/HDMI Monitor, and 5.1 6 peice speaker system. They let me go to Best Buy and pick out what I wanted, and they wrote the check.

    So I am taking as much as I can in college, since I probably wont get this chance ever again.

  20. #45
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    K358 you have triggered one of our moderating rules so your posts are held in a queue.
    One sec and I will authorise it.
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
    Only a woman can read between the lines of a one word answer.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikeZ View Post
    K358 you have triggered one of our moderating rules so your posts are held in a queue.
    One sec and I will authorise it.
    What did I do now?

    Edit: I got an error message but it redirect so fast I can't read it.

  22. #47
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    lol no idea, certain words trigger the anti spam rules. Generally they are very good but sometimes posts get stuck. You should be fine now.
    Mike Swiffin - Community Team Advisor
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  23. #48
    Theoretical Physics Student bronze trophy Jake Arkinstall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tootle View Post
    For starters, how else would you document or plan OO code if not with UML ?
    Personally I've tried drawing things out, UML software etc.

    As a matter of fact, I found the best, most efficient and overall more revealing way is to actually type out the interfaces and class templates in the language I'm going to write the final code in.

    A picture says a thousand words? Maybe, but code tells me much more than pictures could.
    Jake Arkinstall
    "Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
    Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona

  24. #49
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tootle View Post
    Have to butt in with a burning Q - ULTiMATE, why do you say UML is dying?

    I'm learning OOP (Java, AS3, PHP blah) and have done a nightclass in UML to help it all along.... it was very dry but the discipline definitely helps you put your code/thoughts in order.

    We covered class & object diagrams, use-cases and sequence diagrams, but I understand UML is a LOT bigger than just this... so what would you use instead? For starters, how else would you document or plan OO code if not with UML ?

    thanks,
    tootle.
    I'm not saying that it isn't useful to learn, but that it doesn't belong in a classroom setting as it is not an academic subject, Good OO practices are, but they don't begin or end with UML. My viewpoints on UML are in line with Jeff Atwood's thoughts on the subject.

    In short, UML aims to be a universal standard for describing object-oriented code so that anyone can understand this, yet programming in itself is a complicated craft. Why do programmers need to spend their time creating large documents when they could be doing what they're paid to do, program. In all honesty, what do you think is easier to understand, a UML document or your source code?

    Secondly, UML is a separate exercise from coding, it's design. By adding loads of layers into your software development methodology you've made yourself prone to delays as now you'll have two things that need modifying. If you find that your design is flawed half-way through coding your code won't magically fix itself.

    To reiterate myself, I do not hate Analysis and Design, I just believe that they do not need to be bound by special rules, diagrams or modelling languages. Most universities won't even teach the UML in its full because it's just too bizarre to treat it as its own language for writing programs. When you're in the corporate world you're there to do a job and to work with others, and whilst a formal method of communication is handy why does it need to be so formal?

    Really, a whiteboard is all you need. Hell, some of the best programmers I've met have designed applications on napkins at restaurants and in bars. The UML is just another fad in the long line of tools for software development methodologies that we'll all look back on and laugh, something for the executives to look at and believe that they understand programming.

    If you're writing mission critical software then you'll need some immense design tools and methodologies. I hear that the guys that write the software for NASA get paid several thousand dollars per line of code, not surprising when you think that a simple error could mean life or death, let alone having to bin a billion dollar space mission that had taken years to plan.

    In short, the only reason UML is allowed to live is because OO is so prominent at the moment. If functional programming does take off like many hardcore programmers believe it will then UML will be dead in the next ten years.

    Quote Originally Posted by sg707 View Post
    UML is definitely not dying! I hope he would at least design first then code. Only place that does not use UML are the place where they code first then design. Of course, you'll not use every UML element but Class and Sequence Diagaram is a must!
    UML != Design.

    I think you'll find that most places do not use UML because it is unnecessary work. Any worthwhile programmer should be able to explain their code fully either through comments or through clever programming that makes the code seem self-documenting. If someone were to look through my latest code and not understand what a class is doing it either means I'm a terrible programmer or that they're an idiot (probably the former).

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    And it's only got worse with the recession, more people out of work retraining and getting into more debt to do so. I have seen a sharp rise in people I know who are hobbyist geeks going to get a degree to change careers. As if there wasn't enough competition as it was the industry is going to get flooded in 3-4 years
    You can blame the government for that. Now there are so many people in higher education that your degree is now worthless. Once you graduate, unless you have been building your skill set since you've started, you'll be joining the long line at the Job Centre and claiming your £50 a week job seekers allowance. If you graduate from a top 20 university you'll have a chance of landing a job, otherwise you'll be starting at the bottom of the ladder, along with those who didn't go to university in the first place.

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    I have done a bit of research into what degrees give you the best employability.
    I found that sticking to the core degrees are better than the new types of degrees.

    An Economics Professor at my Business School told me that he is always getting asked if he knows of any talented pupils that they can consider for recruitment. He said that an Economics degree would make you more employable as a Banker or to work in the City than a degree in Banking and Finance.

    If you get a degree you would be better of getting a Computer Science BSc Hons (Bachelor of Science Honours) than an IT degree. It will give you more options when you graduate because its a core degree that shows you have the kind of mathematical and analytical skills that employers look for when recruiting for good jobs both IT related and non-IT.

    The better quality courses are accredited by Computer and Engineering organisations. I am not sure what bodys would endorse a degree course in the US but in the UK a good CS course is usually accredited by the British Computer Society and the Institution of Engineering and Technology.

    Hope that helps

    ro0bear


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