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  1. #26
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    Do what? This isn't something anyone would do for themselves. Microsoft would have to write the code to be included with the Windows install to do this but you don't need a browser to download or install anything from the 'net.

  2. #27
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    You don't need a browser to download stuff from the net in general, you need a browser to browse for stuff on the net. Effectively what they are not doing is including the browser "container" in windows, but the HTML rendering engine, and HTTP client bits are pretty much completely baked in. In fact, given that IE8 is on windows update now the few users on the lunatic fringe who still build their own boxes with barenaked windows will be able to pick it up in the first update. Which, if I recall correctly, is about the first screen one sees after one boots a newly installed copy of Windows these days.

  3. #28
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    The European Commission is pissed about them selling Windows without IE.

    Ya know, after extracting hundreds of millions of dollars from them for doing it.

    Now they're saying that not including IE is anticompetitive.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    The European Commission is pissed about them selling Windows without IE.

    Ya know, after extracting hundreds of millions of dollars from them for doing it.

    Now they're saying that not including IE is anticompetitive.
    You can't bundle IE with Windows!

    Hey, what the hell are you doing not including IE with Windows!

    Standard government stuff... No clue as to what ramifications their decisions will have.

  5. #30
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    It has been a farce since it started, and I was initially behind Opera for opening the case. However, after getting my head around it I changed my mind.

    I wasn't then surprised to see that Win7 would ship without IE. In fact, it was the most likely outcome from the case and any chance of entering into discussion about how to make the playing field level has been lost (at least for the time-being).

    Shame that Opera had to go and get involved if you ask me, though I'm sure they felt they were doing the right thing at the time.

  6. #31
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    Opera's case was that Microsoft included a browser that didn't comply with web standards. The result was that many sites (including intranets) were written for IE instead of web standards. And the effect was that other browser vendors (like Opera) had to reverse-engineer IE's bugs in order to compete. In other words, Microsoft were – indirectly – limiting competition.

    Opera didn't say IE couldn't be shipped with Windows. They said that IE should be made standards compliant.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  7. #32
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification, Tommy. Opera's intention was right therefore, but the execution has turned into something else entirely...

  8. #33
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    That was the legal argument, but Opera's operational goal was to get Opera installed on every windows install in Europe through judicial and regulatory fiat. I can't say I blame them, as given they are competing against Microsoft, Apple, Google and open source their desktop operation is dead in the water without a regulatory life preserver.

    That said, I really wonder what legal basis there is that browsers should be a level playing field? Is there a binding contract somewhere signed by all the browser makers? AFAIK, every browser is not a special snowflake that deserves it's chance to shine. It might be an American thing, but this is something for the market to work out. Which it already is--we have all seen the dramatic rise in non IE browsers in the last few years. I see it even on our sites which are aimed largely at corporate drones in big companies with highly regulated infrastructures.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    That was the legal argument, but Opera's operational goal was to get Opera installed on every windows install in Europe through judicial and regulatory fiat.
    Do you have anything to back up such a preposterous claim?
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  10. #35
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    Directly, no. But why would they start a suit like this in the first place unless it was to get their browser into default installs? If their goal was standards compliance, their response to the news that IE was going to be pulled from Windows should have been "Sweet, we've got the best, most awesome standards compliant browser in the world and we're going to figure out how to get it preinstalled on PCs." But that won't happen because Microsoft, or more likely Google, is going to pay OEMs more than Opera can afford to ship with their browsers.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Directly, no.
    So you're just spreading FUD, then? Oh, sorry, when it comes from Microsoft it's not called FUD but 'getting the facts'.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  12. #37
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    Ok, then answer me this--why, as a business who is responsible to their shareholders (and no one else) would Opera engage in the expense and risk of such a suit?

  13. #38
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Probably the same reason Microsoft are always getting themselves into deep water or the same reason Google have not taken further precautions to defeat copyrighted content appearing on YouTube or Apple with the fiasco over price fixing in iTunes (which almost ended up with them being sued by the french government if I remembered correctly). And even if Opera did do it with the liklihood of a lawsuit, they don't seem to have an effective marketing department so a lawsuit would automatically give them "good guy" status for opposing microsoft and give them plenty of publicity

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Ok, then answer me this--why, as a business who is responsible to their shareholders (and no one else) would Opera engage in the expense and risk of such a suit?
    If I understand correctly, Opera didn't sue anyone. They filed a complaint to the European Commission about what they perceived as an obstacle to fair trade on Microsoft's part. Then the EC chose to take that complaint seriously and sue.

    To be honest, Opera are their own worst enemy. Their marketing and public relations leave a lot to be desired. I winced when I first read about the EC complaint, because I knew how it would look in the public eye. I do understand Opera's frustration, but they ought to know what sort of spin there would be on something like this.

    I don't think Opera care all that much about their marketshare for desktop browsers. Their main market is mobile devices. And I definitely don't think they expected to go from <1% to 100% by filing a trade complaint.

    But you have to wonder … would Microsoft have expended as much time and money as they did to make IE8 fully CSS2.1 compliant if it hadn't been for this complaint and the ensuing lawsuit?

    BTW, Swedish business media report that IE8 will be available on CD (either free of charge or at a 'small cost') for those who want it but don't get it pre-installed. It will also be available via FTP, so you don't have to install another browser to retrieve it.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  15. #40
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99
    That was the legal argument, but Opera's operational goal was to get Opera installed on every windows install in Europe through judicial and regulatory fiat.
    Do you have anything to back up such a preposterous claim?
    You're being blinded by Opera love

    The European Commission has long pushed for imposing regulatory choice over absence of choice, it was always clear that they would prefer propping up the competing browsers to simply stripping out IE. Opera knew exactly what it was doing when they made their complaint, the only outcome the EC could reach if they imposed new rules would be forcing a choice to install Opera (and Firefox) upon new Windows users.

    I don't exactly keep track of transcripts of the hearings, but there's plenty from after Opera joined in:

    http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Mic...a-Says-148376/
    http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9134286

    Opera is downright furious that Microsoft is finding a way to circumvent their goal of forcing their browser into a menu for everyone in Europe.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    they don't seem to have an effective marketing department so a lawsuit would automatically give them "good guy" status for opposing microsoft and give them plenty of publicity
    Publicity with whom? 25% of people out there have switched off of IE, of those 25% most of them have never even heard of Opera and never will because they have better things to do then to hear people drone on about browser wars.

    Opera, good game, now close up shop and take you 0.72% marketshare and go home.

  17. #42
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    Sorry for the terminology confusion, in the US we generally call filing a regulatory complaint filing a suit. I'd add that watching the EU-MSFT issues (outside of being a microsoft-focused IT type, I'm also a shareholder), it really seems that the EC has been on an anti MSFT witch hunt of late. I wonder how they would have handled things had Microsoft been based in, say, Reims rather than in Redmond. Or if Opera was based in Omaha rather than Oslo?

    But you have to wonder … would Microsoft have expended as much time and money as they did to make IE8 fully CSS2.1 compliant if it hadn't been for this complaint and the ensuing lawsuit?
    From conversations I had with people, making a new, standards compliant rendering engine was always the point of IE8. IE7 was a very quick fix to address fundamental security flaws in IE6 and get some new UI features in. Every rendering engine change was pure icing on the cake for IE7. Backwards compatibility is one of the reason some of us in the sysadmin side of IT love MSFT--stuff not breaking due to upgrades is crucial to not getting fired.

    I don't think Opera care all that much about their marketshare for desktop browsers. Their main market is mobile devices. And I definitely don't think they expected to go from <1&#37; to 100% by filing a trade complaint.
    I don't think they thought they would get 100%, but they figured they could get alot better than 1%. Fact of the day: we had more visitors from playstation portables than from Opera last month.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    The European Commission is pissed about them selling Windows without IE.

    Ya know, after extracting hundreds of millions of dollars from them for doing it.

    Now they're saying that not including IE is anticompetitive.
    Amazing how so many people paint the European Union and Opera as the bad guys.

    Microsoft has paid out BILLIONS of dollars in lawsuits - and it still has a reputation as a virtual crime syndicate. It continues bilking consumers and taxpayers in general out of billions of dollars, giving us infamously crappy software and services in return. Polls posted here on SitePoint consistently paint Internet Explorer as the third or fourth best browser. It's certainly the browser web designers love to hate.

    Pol-IT-ics - a combination of IT, politics and economics - is very complex, and M$'s attorneys have exploited this complexity ruthlessly.

    So, even if the EU's actions towards M$ could be judged unfair, so what? It's hard fighting an army of corporate attorneys by the rules M$ has learned to break, ignore or circumvent, so why not fight fire with fire?

    As for Opera, what has it done that M$ isn't guilty of? Microsoft wallows in corporate welfare, so Opera turns to the European Union for a little help. Microsoft's crimes and scandals are almost too numerous too list, while Opera is guilty of playing hardball with the biggest bully on the block. How disgusting!

    In the meantime, Opera has given us a fantastic piece of software.

    It would also appear that Opera is trying to tap into the marketing magic that made Firefox the world's most popular browser. (Of course, IE remains the most widely used browser, but it's not the most popular.) Firefox's dazzling success was fueled largely by a growing hatred for Microsoft.

    On balance, Opera is a fine, upstanding member of the community, and the EU deserves credit for standing up to Microsoft in an era of rampant corporate corruption. The more Microsoft zealots rant against Opera and the EU, the more I admire them.

    P.S. Remember, this isn't a done deal. There are many ways this could come back to bite Microsoft in the *ss.

  19. #44
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    Firefox's dazzling success was fueled largely by a growing hatred for Microsoft.
    Maybe amongst some lunatic fringes. But by and large the public doesn't care who makes the browser, they just care about having a browser that is quick, secure and renders what they want to look at. Kick in neat extensions to let you do more cool stuff and it is pretty clear how Firefox got the footprint it did so quickly.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Maybe amongst some lunatic fringes.
    Thanks for the M$ FUD.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    You're being blinded by Opera love
    Wrong. I like their browser and I always have a soft spot for the underdog, but I'm not a fanboy who defends Opera come he11 or high water. See the point before yours, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    Fact of the day: we had more visitors from playstation portables than from Opera last month.
    So? Why do you and your multi-billion dollar employer see Opera as such a threat? And could the reason you have few Opera visitors be that your site is written with Microsoft software and only works properly in IE? (Just asking.)

    Quote Originally Posted by tke71709
    Opera, good game, now close up shop and take you 0.72% marketshare and go home.
    Then from whom would Microsoft, Apple, Google and the Mozilla Foundation steal their ideas?
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  22. #47
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo
    So? Why do you and your multi-billion dollar employer see Opera as such a threat?
    Unless Wyatt recently changed jobs, he doesn't work for Microsoft.

    Opera is a threat because they lead the attack via the EC which has already fined Microsoft billions of dollars. Billions are lots of dollars at stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    Then from whom would Microsoft, Apple, Google and the Mozilla Foundation steal their ideas?
    From extension developers of course.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    Opera is a threat because they lead the attack via the EC which has already fined Microsoft billions of dollars. Billions are lots of dollars at stake.
    As I noted earlier, Microsoft has shelled out billions of dollars in legal settlements, and it really isn't that big a deal; they just bilk taxpayers and their own customers out of billions more. For crying out loud, Bill Gates' personal fortune is somewhere around $50 billion. The Seattle Sounders soccer team's uniforms are little more than Xbox advertisements. (They play in a tax-subsidized sports stadium owned by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.) So pardon me if I don't shed any tears when I hear about the EU sticking Microsoft for another billion dollars. The Microsoft empire is as vast as it is corrupt.

    In the meantime, when critics complain about the Microsoft monopoly, Microsofties typically deny it's a monopoly, noting that no one holds a gun to people's heads, forcing them to buy Microsoft. Likewise, no one's forcing Microsoft to do business in Europe.

  24. #49
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    Whether or not Microsoft and Bill Gates have a lot of money is really irrelevant. They shouldn't be made to pay fines because they're rich!

    If they use business methods that violate legislation, then they might be fined for that – regardless of whether or not they're rich. In this case, the EC might find that they are causing illegal impediments for competition, and that's why there might be sanctions. Not because Microsoft have a lot of capital.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    Whether or not Microsoft and Bill Gates have a lot of money is really irrelevant. They shouldn't be made to pay fines because they're rich!
    No one said being rich is a crime. I'm simply not horrified at the idea of Microsoft paying out another billion dollars in fines because 1) it can easily afford such fines, and 2) it needs to be held accountable.

    On the other hand, I wouldn't say Billysoft's bank account is irrelevant. After all, money is power, and how Microsoft got that money is ultimately one of the reasons EU is giving it a hard time.

    To put it in perspective, imagine Opera being fined a billion dollars. Actually, it's hard to imagine, isn't it?


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