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  1. #1
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
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    Windows 7 will ship without IE to Europe

    Microsoft has responded to the EU's antitrust investigation into its bundling of its browser with Windows by deciding to ship Windows 7 in Europe without Internet Explorer 8 installed. Say hello to the spiritual successor of Windows XP N: Windows 7 E.
    http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...t-explorer.ars

  2. #2
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    That Internet Explorer is no longer built into the operating system making it impossible to remove is great news for those who decide to use a different browser and don't want to have multiple browsers installed.

    Presumably it also means that Microsoft have found a way for Windows Update to work without needing IE.
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  3. #3
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
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    I don't know what all goes on behind the scenes but since Vista windows update is tied into the OS as opposed to a web interface.

  4. #4
    . shoooo... silver trophy logic_earth's Avatar
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    What they are doing is removing the interface, however MSHTML.dll (Trident) and any other core UI components included with IE remain intact. Basically in essence only "iexplore.exe" is being removed. Removing everything would cause a lot of applications that depend on it to break.

    And Windows Update, since Vista is not a control panel applet. No longer in a browser.
    Logic without the fatal effects.
    All code snippets are licensed under WTFPL.


  5. #5
    SitePoint Evangelist ferrari_chris's Avatar
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    So, how do they download their beloved Firefox or Opera then without a browser?

    They need to get it from another source and then install it?

    Does this mean that Linux and Mac OSs won't be shipping with a browser as well? Or is it one rule for MS, and another for everyone else?

  6. #6
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari_chris View Post
    So, how do they download their beloved Firefox or Opera then without a browser?
    Good question, though I bet there is something I am overlooking.

  7. #7
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPartch View Post
    Good question, though I bet there is something I am overlooking.
    There are some comments on that in the article you linked to. Apparently Microsoft is going to ship IE8 on a CD for those who want to install it onto their browser-less system and is expecting that if the other browsers want to compete for that market that they will do the same.
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  8. #8
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    There are some comments on that in the article you linked to. Apparently Microsoft is going to ship IE8 on a CD for those who want to install it onto their browser-less system and is expecting that if the other browsers want to compete for that market that they will do the same.
    So we need a CD to install a browser to access the Internet... why am I getting the feeling of Deja Vu... oh wait AOL and oh yes Netscape.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Evangelist ferrari_chris's Avatar
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    You need to manually install IE8 so you can use it to get on the Internet to download another browser and then uninstall IE8 again...

    Oh yes, this whole process is so user-friendly.

    Anti-trust law FTW!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    So we need a CD to install a browser to access the Internet... why am I getting the feeling of Deja Vu... oh wait AOL and oh yes Netscape.
    EXACTLY...

    Anyone who thinks the Evil Empire has lost its dastardly edge should take a hard look at Microsoft’s plans for Windows 7 E.
    Poll: Is Microsoft's Windows 7 E a stroke of genius?

    The only thing Microshaft learned from its "victory" over Netscape is that it can jerk the world around as long as it has enough money.

    However, I don't think anything has been finalized yet. I'd LOVE to see the EU ram the other option down Bill Gates' throat: Allowing users to vote for their favorite browser. If they also required Windows 7 to carry links to SitePoint browser polls, Opera would get an enormous boost.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari_chris View Post
    So, how do they download their beloved Firefox or Opera then without a browser?
    According to a Swedish computer magazine, which also published this news snippet, Microsoft will be instructing retailers to install 'a browser' on each computer prior to delivery. I wonder which browser Microsoft will recommend...
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  12. #12
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    I wonder which browser Microsoft will recommend...
    Surely if they recommend one then they are just recreating the same situation that landed them in court in the first place.

    It is an opportunity for the other browser makers to start recommending their browsers to the retailers as the one to install.
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  13. #13
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Surely if they recommend one then they are just recreating the same situation that landed them in court in the first place.
    Not necessarily. Recommending is not the same as forcing.

    FWIW, I think this is a silly situation. I don't mind IE being pre-installed in a Windows system. But it should be possible to uninstall it and replace it with an alternative browser, something that hasn't really been possible until now. (Actually, it still isn't, as logic_earth explained.)
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  14. #14
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Why they couldn't just bundle install's of Firefox, Chrome, Safari and Opera and give users a dialog saying "Which browser do you want to install and use as your default method of accessing the Internet?" click a button, run the setup (or even silent install) and problem solved.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    @Alex, that would probably cause a lot of issues with licensing, liability, support, etc.

    They could have IE pre-installed and provide a default home page with download links to those browsers, though ...
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard rozner's Avatar
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    Opera says Microsoft EU browser offer "not enough"
    http://www.reuters.com/article/techn...55B1F220090612

    "I don't think what Microsoft announced is going to restore competition," Opera's Chief Technology Officer Hakon Wium Lie told Reuters.
    ...
    "Then we would be very disappointed. That means Microsoft's dominant position will continue," Wium Lie said, adding operating systems should be sold with several browsers -- giving consumers the choice -- not with no browsers at all.
    Personally I think this is getting a bit ridiculous. As much as I dislike IE I really don't see why it should be necessary for Microsoft to ship Windows without it. Under this ruling Apple shouldn't be allowed to ship OS X with Safari preinstalled (which would also be kind of ridiculous).

    As previously discussed, how are users supposed to download a different browser??? A CD is not a good solution, I hardly ever use phyical media for anything these days. I would be really annoyed if I had to physically copy a browser from a CD or USB drive from another PC just to get a web browser.

    The other problem with this is that average users who don't know any better are going to be like "Where's my Internet Explorer (which is the 'whole' internet...)" and I think it's more likely they'll want Internet Explorer rather than bother finding a better browser. Since most are unaware of the other browsers.

    Regarding Opera's statement, if Windows is supposed to offer users a choice. This means Microsoft will be required to advertise other browsers, but which browsers make the cut?

  17. #17
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by rozner View Post
    Personally I think this is getting a bit ridiculous.
    I agree, and it reflects badly on Opera. Opera's main weakness has always been marketing, and this isn't exactly making things better. Quite the contrary; they're alienating a lot of people. Which is too bad, considering they do have an excellent browser.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  18. #18
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    @Alex, that would probably cause a lot of issues with licensing, liability, support, etc.

    They could have IE pre-installed and provide a default home page with download links to those browsers, though ...
    Or maybe they should have like Live setup and people select the browser and it downloads it from the native server of origin, that way their not bootstrapping it but its still downloadable without a browser

  19. #19
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy
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    Opera has always had a bit of a terminally screwed business model--anyone remember when you had to pay to remove the ad strip? They really need to quit whining about how competition is unfair and start competing. Such as, by paying computer maker to include opera in the IE-less euro windows. Or making their browser compelling enough that I should download it over any of the other options.

    On windows update: windows update does not use IE in vista or better, it runs as a control panel applet.

    Finally, I suspect they are still shipping the product with a HTML rendering engine. Not having one of those would screw up so many applications that need embedded html capabilities--such as most of the offline help for windows apps--that you couldn't get away with doing that. In fact, reading between the lines, I'd suspect IE is just going to be an optional component but still included with your media. Kind of like adding IIS or MSMQ is these days.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot mjkovis's Avatar
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    Ok, I guess we can never understand the political world and how they think that doing something like this is helpful...

    First off, what does it matter that Microsoft bundles their OWN software and OS with an Internet Browser? If you do NOT like it, then DON'T use it and download something else. They should not be responsible for catering to the needs of everyone else. End of discussion.

  21. #21
    Follow Me On Twitter: @djg gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Grossman's Avatar
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    When you buy a new computer, you don't get just the OS.

    The vendor installs whatever software they want as well. Usually more of it than you'd like.

    So while Windows 7 may ship without IE in Europe, the PC makers that sell in Europe are just going to install IE themselves along with their other software before shipping.

    It's they who would have to deal with the support calls about how to get online otherwise.

    They won't switch to another browser, their support departments are already trained to support IE, and their support documentation (for end users and for their support reps) is written for IE.

    So Microsoft gets to finger the European Commission, not letting them use Microsoft as a bank any more over bundling IE, while IE still gets installed on PCs.

  22. #22
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    When you buy a new computer, you don't get just the OS.

    The vendor installs whatever software they want as well. Usually more of it than you'd like.
    Your telling me! If I buy a new computer I make a backup of all the drivers and format the thing clean with a reinstall, it's the only way I can dislodge all the junk, trials and spyware they encrust your machine up with (and yes I have seen spyware installed on new machines before).

  23. #23
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post
    So while Windows 7 may ship without IE in Europe, the PC makers that sell in Europe are just going to install IE themselves along with their other software before shipping.
    Unless there is a return to the days of browser companies paying the PC makers to install their browser on the computer instead of someone else's. Then it will end up being whichever browser company is prepared to spend the most money to make sure it is their browser that gets installed instead of the competition (of course that would probably end up being Microsoft anyway unless Google decided that they wanted it).

    Of course with the current economic situation it could be to the benefit of those browsers not created in the US.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  24. #24
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    For those non-programmers, you don't need a browser to download and install anything from the internet.

  25. #25
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by icantthinkofone View Post
    For those non-programmers, you don't need a browser to download and install anything from the internet.
    Do you really think the average PC user could do that?

    I couldn't and I'm a technically savvy PC user compared to most.


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