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  1. #51
    SitePoint Wizard ryanhellyer's Avatar
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    I've recently gained the wonderful job of updating a site which uses an entirely flash based CMS. It is horrid to say the least.

    I can see why some people would become cynical of CMS's if that is all they have experienced. I'd like to think I know a thing or two about the insides of a website, but figuring out this CMS has been ridiculous.

    I spent at least an hour, including emailing for support from the developer of the CMS to try and figure out how to upload an image. It turned out they couldn't figure out how to do that in Flash and so they launched a popup (which was promptly swallowed by my popup blocker). And then the ridiculous procedure of actually finding the content to edit it is beyond a joke, I'm not even going to go into it as it would take me about 20 paragraphs just to explain the process, it's diabolically stupid. I could have made an entirely custom CMS in a matter of days which would be better than this pile of dung, and I know very little about how to make a CMS beyond the very basics.

    The company who I'm doing the site maintenance for seems to be sick of listening to developers claiming that they can create a super easy to edit site for them and instead have employed me to update it for them. The stupidity here is that I could probably rebuild their site with WordPress, make it 100x better than the original and they could update it themselves for cheaper than the cost of paying me to update their existing site for them.

    Oh well, hopefully businesses will learn in time that there are good off the shelf systems available which they can use instead of relying on overpriced commercial or custom built systems.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanhellyer View Post
    I've recently gained the wonderful job of updating a site which uses an entirely flash based CMS. It is horrid to say the least.

    I can see why some people would become cynical of CMS's if that is all they have experienced. I'd like to think I know a thing or two about the insides of a website, but figuring out this CMS has been ridiculous.

    I spent at least an hour, including emailing for support from the developer of the CMS to try and figure out how to upload an image. It turned out they couldn't figure out how to do that in Flash and so they launched a popup (which was promptly swallowed by my popup blocker). And then the ridiculous procedure of actually finding the content to edit it is beyond a joke, I'm not even going to go into it as it would take me about 20 paragraphs just to explain the process, it's diabolically stupid. I could have made an entirely custom CMS in a matter of days which would be better than this pile of dung, and I know very little about how to make a CMS beyond the very basics.

    The company who I'm doing the site maintenance for seems to be sick of listening to developers claiming that they can create a super easy to edit site for them and instead have employed me to update it for them. The stupidity here is that I could probably rebuild their site with WordPress, make it 100x better than the original and they could update it themselves for cheaper than the cost of paying me to update their existing site for them.

    Oh well, hopefully businesses will learn in time that there are good off the shelf systems available which they can use instead of relying on overpriced commercial or custom built systems.
    You do that, believe me, you will definitely be appreciated. I left my job mainly because their CMS was a waste of code. You should learn word press well, it will prove very useful to you. Many use it in the industry.

  3. #53
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    I've been told that I've merely had bad experiences with templates and the such, and that there are good ones out there. Who knows.

    My colleague just said a few hours ago that he's looking into Drupal for our company's main site. He hopes he can simply plunk my HTML and CSS into a Drupal template. I have yet to see such a thing actually work. I guess I'll find out.

  4. #54
    SitePoint Addict Fre420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I've been told that I've merely had bad experiences with templates and the such, and that there are good ones out there. Who knows.

    My colleague just said a few hours ago that he's looking into Drupal for our company's main site. He hopes he can simply plunk my HTML and CSS into a Drupal template. I have yet to see such a thing actually work. I guess I'll find out.
    Yes you can, I did some tests with it.
    Same can be said from Magento.

    The thing is that most coders start from the base template which already has way too many nested divs ... with an attitude of it works so it doesn't have to be 100% semantic.

  5. #55
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes
    Lawlz, the 90's called me this morning and wanted my rant back : )
    They call me all the time too

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I've been told that I've merely had bad experiences with templates and the such, and that there are good ones out there. Who knows.

    My colleague just said a few hours ago that he's looking into Drupal for our company's main site. He hopes he can simply plunk my HTML and CSS into a Drupal template. I have yet to see such a thing actually work. I guess I'll find out.
    You certainly can

    When I began using Drupal, I was horribly mislead by an individual who was a quote Drupal expert. As a result I had a horrible time figuring out how to theme the site and make it do what I wanted. As it turned out, the individual was an expert Drupal blogger who left about 3/4 of the way through the project. Although it was a difficult experience, I managed to bend it (Drupal) to my will and through the process I came to respect the CMS... Just not the person misleading the project

    That was several years ago and now there are a number of good books on the subject as well as a strong community to help out. A very powerful feature of the theming engine is that you can create specific templates for specific pages. For instance, the default template is page.tpl.php, the homepage is page-front.tpl.php, you could create a specific type of content called stuff and create a template for all content that is created of that type; page-stuff.tpl.php and it goes on.

    Another fantastic feature is valid markup code. As long as your template is coded using valid html/xhtml, the output will be valid. Most of the included themes are strict xhtml 1.0 but you can determine the standard in your own.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Another fantastic feature is valid markup code. As long as your template is coded using valid html/xhtml, the output will be valid. Most of the included themes are strict xhtml 1.0 but you can determine the standard in your own.
    Does the CMS leave any code. The previous CMS I worked on has silly ID names which went along the lines of ID="cpt02947302", as you can tell this says nothing about what the ID does. Does Drupal do this?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    Does the CMS leave any code. The previous CMS I worked on has silly ID names which went along the lines of ID="cpt02947302", as you can tell this says nothing about what the ID does. Does Drupal do this?
    Hey Sega,
    It won't add ambiguous id's like that but if you go to the performance options once the site has been launched (highly recommended) and tell it to optimize the CSS and Javascript it will create new JS and CSS files which are optimized and cached (no whitespace, carriage returns etc...). The links to the files will look something like this: b8bb02f4103f461a8bcaaf677d404412.css

    It will also create containers around content and add id's to navigational list items. After some inspection, the naming conventions actually do make sense and I find it very handy for controlling the page presentation via CSS.

    For instance usually just before the page content you will find the start tag of a container that looks like this: <div id="node-6" class="node"> This was the 6th page I added to a site.

    I decided to use a module called nice menus that provides a configurable drop-down menu. The UL and LI tags were handled as follows:
    <ul class="nice-menu nice-menu-down" id="nice-menu-1"> (first nav menu)
    <li id="menu-343" class="menuparent menu-path-node-6"> (points to the 6th page I built)

    <li id="menu-343" class="menuparent menu-path-node-6 active-trail"> (same item but active)

    When I build my themes, I like to add id tags to my body tag so I can fine tune things via CSS ie: a body#some-page {} declaration. That particular page has a body tag as follows:
    <body id="who-we-are">

    Rather than includes, you'll use things called Blocks which you can add to as many or few pages as you like... They can be static or dynamic using html/JS or PHP. These block will be enclosed in containers a well which I find a little bit overkill but I think they do that to make sure there is separation between multiple block in a specific area and to provide additional CSS hooks for controlling the presentation. These containers look a bit like this:
    <div id="block-block-2" class="clear-block block block-block">
    (the 2nd block I created)

    Well that's the Cole's Notes on stuff that gets added into a fairly clean custom layout (theme). To see what you get in a default theme go checkout www.drupal.org

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  8. #58
    SitePoint Mentor silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Hey Sega,To see what you get in a default theme go checkout www.drupal.org
    that's me off. :-p

  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    <div id="block-block-2" class="clear-block block block-block">
    <li id="menu-343" class="menuparent menu-path-node-6 active-trail">
    Exactly the kind of thing I, um, strongly dislike. If ANY of my containers need more than two classes (and usually they need one or none) then I'm doin' it wrong. None of the businesses around here who has a web site have anything as complicated as Amazon or one of those million-page set-ups who might actually need bazillions of classes on bazillions of extra containers, so I'm starting to fear for my life here. I'm no fan of "valid spaghetti" either, and I do not style from some admin box-- I style in a text editor. Is this old-fashioned? I don't, can't, point, click and drag my way to styling things, or choosing from pre-fab classing sets.

    While I can understand someone keeping a human-readable version for development and a machine-friendly version with millions of extra unnecessary classes and removed whitespace, this leads to another issue:
    Checking that the error you see on Joe's computer with the online version which doesn't appear on YOUR computer with your "good" version has got to be one of the most frustrating, hair-losing things ever. Plenty of people come onto these forums asking for help and posting their code, which is completely, horrible unintelligable (because it's the online version). The only way they can get help from anyone is to get access to the human-readable version, and find a way to post that online. (I don't consider this a fault of the CMS at all, only that it's another pitfall to be carefully avoided)

    Comparing the online version to your development version, how does one do that? They sound like they would be completely different.

    The reason my colleague is thinking of Drupal is because the site will go from somewhat-static/php to something with log-in functionality and client management (clients being able to log in, change their accounts or create or cancel them). This, I understand and it totally makes sense. In which case, I will just let him pick a Drupal theme and just keep it. I'm pretty sure I don't want to try to style .block .block-block .clear-block {here;}...
    I already did that with Magento and it was a nightmare.

    Magento was stylable, but unnecessarily difficult. Very simple styles, like simply, well, centering something for example, was very very difficult. About the only thing that seemed to work every time was changing background colours. The trick was finding how deep in your specificity you had to write to override the 15 or so other stylesheets.

    #element.class-two .classitty .class .class-class-col3 {
    just to center the thing!;
    }

    I'd rather
    #index #element {
    sudo make me a sammich!;
    }

    Again, I'll see how bad the specificity hell is. If it's class="menuparent menu-path-node-6" then I'm going to ask for a lot more money.

  10. #60
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Exactly the kind of thing I, um, strongly dislike. If ANY of my containers need more than two classes (and usually they need one or none) then I'm doin' it wrong.

    - - - -
    I was thinking the same thing about four years ago when I was dragged kicking and screaming into the world of Drupal. I had a darn fine inhouse CMS system and my classes and id's were very concise and precise but...

    After spending some time in the system, I found that containers that contained a number of classes like <div id="block-block-2" class="clear-block block block-block"> provide me with even more flexibility because cascading stylesheets, cascade

    Just kidding... It's late (12:50am) and I'm still working.

    Yes, if I choose to style such an element, I have to really think about how to approach it but that was just an example of what you might find and most of that particular element is styled for the content editing side of things so I don't generally have to consider it at all in my stylesheet.

    Generally the containers that the CMS ads to the mix have no effect on my layout so I only have to consider how the navigation elements are handled as well as my own containers for the header, logo, content, left-column, right-column, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Again, I'll see how bad the specificity hell is. If it's class="menuparent menu-path-node-6" then I'm going to ask for a lot more money.
    And why not... With a powerful CMS platform (like Drupal, Wordpress, Joomla, etc...) in your toolbox, you're bringing a lot more to the table. Mind you, there is an investment that you will have to make to be proficient. I have been tinkering with Drupal for quite some time and am only now getting to the point where I feel confident that one day I will be able to call myself a Drupal Ninja Developer. I'm not there yet but soon I think

    I hope that makes sense. Long day, time for sleep....
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  11. #61
    SitePoint Addict Fre420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    The reason my colleague is thinking of Drupal is because the site will go from somewhat-static/php to something with log-in functionality and client management (clients being able to log in, change their accounts or create or cancel them). This, I understand and it totally makes sense. In which case, I will just let him pick a Drupal theme and just keep it. I'm pretty sure I don't want to try to style .block .block-block .clear-block {here;}...
    I already did that with Magento and it was a nightmare.

    Magento was stylable, but unnecessarily difficult. Very simple styles, like simply, well, centering something for example, was very very difficult. About the only thing that seemed to work every time was changing background colours. The trick was finding how deep in your specificity you had to write to override the 15 or so other stylesheets.

    #element.class-two .classitty .class .class-class-col3 {
    just to center the thing!;
    }

    I'd rather
    #index #element {
    sudo make me a sammich!;
    }

    Again, I'll see how bad the specificity hell is. If it's class="menuparent menu-path-node-6" then I'm going to ask for a lot more money.
    If you're used to the absolute minimum with classes, like I am too, then you have to change the html templates too.
    In the tests I did I changed every template.

    I do agree it's not that easy, but once you understand the principles it get's easier. The more flexibility the CMS offers you, the harder it is to change it.
    Drupal & Magento give you the possibility to have limitless changes in the HMTL code, but the price is that their template system became harder to get a grip on (in the beginning).

    Every thing you can code in a static html template, with minimal semantic html code & class+id use, is totally doable in these CMS'es. It just requires more work & thinking.

    There's only a very small amount of template builders that use these best practices in creating semantic HTML. One of the reasons could be because it requires more work, but another might be that it's easier for a novice CSS'er to mess with this HTML structure then to mess with a minimal HTML structure.
    If you want your site to be fully accessible, better code-to-content ratio etc ... you are almost always obliged to code the HTML yourself.

    There are some OK books on Drupal theming, if you style a Drupal site, I highly recommend you to read those.
    The availability of Magento theming documentation is however minimal.

  12. #62
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fre
    Every thing you can code in a static html template, with minimal semantic html code & class+id use, is totally doable in these CMS'es. It just requires more work & thinking.
    That's awesome. If we do end up working with Drupal, I'm more than willing to spend the time rewriting the HTML once (and learning how to do that) to have more control over everything else.

    I've been reading the Drupal page Andrew linked to earlier. Lawlz, I didn't know it's a deliberate misspelling of "druppel" : )

  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard ryanhellyer's Avatar
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    @stomme poes - you can definitely edit ALL of the HTML in a Drupal template. Any CMS which does not allow you to do that is not worth using.

    The only problem you may encounter is that the wysiwyg editors they include tend to spew out some crud code some times. But if you are adding the posts yourself then you can always post in code view anyway. And even on non-web coders can usually post reasonably'ish okay code. They tend to get a little messy when people start using the colour or font size options. But if they stick to just posting raw text, images etc. bullet points etc. the output is usually fine.

    The wysiwyg problem only applies to the actual text content, not the surrounding code.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    The only problem you may encounter is that the wysiwyg editors they include tend to spew out some crud code some times. But if you are adding the posts yourself then you can always post in code view anyway.
    Huh what? I have to code in a wysiwyg? Can't I edit Drupal HTML in vi???

    *edit oh you mean blogs. No, we won't have a blog. People will be filling out forms, where things like colour and code are NOT options. This is insurance with financial management : )

    I don't ever trust any input from the user. I hope my colleague agrees enough with me to filter the hell out of what should be plain text, but from what's already happened, that might not go over well... in which case, I'll be forced to learn PHP : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Huh what? I have to code in a wysiwyg? Can't I edit Drupal HTML in vi???

    *edit oh you mean blogs. No, we won't have a blog. People will be filling out forms, where things like colour and code are NOT options. This is insurance with financial management : )

    I don't ever trust any input from the user. I hope my colleague agrees enough with me to filter the hell out of what should be plain text, but from what's already happened, that might not go over well... in which case, I'll be forced to learn PHP : )
    Basically when your simple user comes to put content in his site, he will be using a html editor, a WYSIWYG kind-of program, like FCKEditor. These mess your code up when you start messing with fonts and colours. I always discourage people in using font, colours and sizes. So any new posts will be posted by this editor.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Addict Fre420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    ... in which case, I'll be forced to learn PHP : )
    If you want to edit all the HTML of Drupal, you'll eventually need to understand the basics of PHP, because the template system is a mashup up of HTML & basic PHP code.

    There are 2 ways to learn Drupal Theming:
    online articles --> the hard way, tried that first, difficult to get the big picture + no guarantees of "best practices"
    drupal theming book --> gives a good overview what's possible (different types of theming possible) + explains the default templates.

    Basically the book is the best option as it provides you a clear overview of the theming options in Drupal.
    I learned it this way in 2 days (+ experiments). A lot faster then all those online guides can teach you.
    Don't expect an in-depth guide tho, it's rather basic ...

  17. #67
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drupal
    Are you using a module that does exactly what you want, only you wish the markup was just a little bit different? Maybe you’d like it tagged differently, or you’d like to assign a CSS class to something? You accomplish this by copying the output function from the module and pushing it downstream to the functions document in your template (theme). Modify the code there, and when the system goes to output, it will see your downstream customized function and output through that instead.
    So if I didn't want to start with whatever steaming pile they've written, if I understand correctly, I'd need to learn to write my own module, in PHP. : (

    Basically when your simple user comes to put content in his site, he will be using a html editor, a WYSIWYG kind-of program, like FCKEditor. These mess your code up when you start messing with fonts and colours. I always discourage people in using font, colours and sizes. So any new posts will be posted by this editor.
    I'll be sure to ban the boss from using the WYSIWYG. He'll have to come to us if he wants to change something. The users who are logging in however are not getting their own web pages. They're getting something like "your account" on a bank site. They can access and change their information, but they are not changing site content. So, maybe Drupal isn't the right tool for this sort of thing.
    But if we were selling web sites, and Drupal lets us have actual 100% control, does that mean we can stop the editor from even offering colour/fonts instead of telling them we'd rather they didn't do that?

    Fre, looks like a decent book, thx for the link (at first I thought it was an Apress book). I might see what there is at the Donner in R'dam first (easier than ordering things online haha).

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    But if we were selling web sites, and Drupal lets us have actual 100% control, does that mean we can stop the editor from even offering colour/fonts instead of telling them we'd rather they didn't do that?
    I know there is a light version and a fully-fledged version for the FCK Editor. I am not experienced in using Drupal, as I am learning it now. In my experience I just informed the clients "do not do this, and do not do that", sure it was tiresome, but then again I did not have another choice. If you give them good training you will not have that big of a problem. Expect to monitor them the first 3 times they do changes.

    In my old job I was responsible for training the clients, I can say, that if your dealing with many people in a company, prefer to train the most competent person, inform his manager what he has learned, and hope this person does the same to other's in the company.

  19. #69
    SitePoint Addict Fre420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    So if I didn't want to start with whatever steaming pile they've written, if I understand correctly, I'd need to learn to write my own module, in PHP. : (
    No you don't
    You just copy paste the existing php code in your HTML

    for example:
    PHP if code
    HTML + PHP variable + HTML
    End If code

    You only need to change the HTML bits, but it's all explained in the Drupal 6 theming book.
    You'll only need to know basic PHP if you want to change things in the PHP code.
    This gives btw great flexibility.
    You can check how long a variable is & adjust the css class to it, or the html code (longer text = smaller font size to keep the headers on one line etc ...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I'll be sure to ban the boss from using the WYSIWYG. He'll have to come to us if he wants to change something. The users who are logging in however are not getting their own web pages. They're getting something like "your account" on a bank site. They can access and change their information, but they are not changing site content. So, maybe Drupal isn't the right tool for this sort of thing.
    But if we were selling web sites, and Drupal lets us have actual 100% control, does that mean we can stop the editor from even offering colour/fonts instead of telling them we'd rather they didn't do that?

    Fre, looks like a decent book, thx for the link (at first I thought it was an Apress book). I might see what there is at the Donner in R'dam first (easier than ordering things online haha).
    You don't have to,
    You choose which wysiwyg editor you use. At my previous job we successfully configured & rewrote TinyMCE to only allow valid code.
    With some wysiwyg's it's fairly easy to allow/block some tags like font colors, no H1's & H2's for this part etc ...

    In Reddot (high end CMS system) we even made a CSS class adder, something that is also possible with the Drupal wysiwyg's.
    You just selected an hmtl element & choose from a dropdown which CSS class you wanted to use on it. This way we had proper control over the final output & the editors could experiment with different visual presentations.
    This could be used on simple lists & text, but also on thumbnail lists. The editor just had to upload the original images, choose a class, & the script would then give the CMS the right proportions for the thumbnail images + add the css class (put the styling in place + hover effects).
    We had plans (& it was technically possible) to add the Trados translation engine in the wysiwyg, but didn't because of lack of time.

    Most wysiwyg's allow you to manipulate the final validation script (check & filter before submit), so you can get a fair control over the user input.

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    @Fre420

    Could one start from the Drupal Theming book instead of the overall Drupal 6 book.

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    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
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    Drupal Zen starter kit is a good theme to start with.

  22. #72
    SitePoint Addict Fre420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sega View Post
    @Fre420

    Could one start from the Drupal Theming book instead of the overall Drupal 6 book.
    The book says so I thought,
    but I can't guarantee this.
    I learned the Drupal 6 book first, then the theming book, so I already had some background & immediately understood the concepts
    (I also had some previous experiences with other CMS template engines)

    I would recommend to do this too, you first need to know exactly what the basic principles, the pro's & con's and the essential modules are.
    First get the functionality in your product, then the styling.

    I would even do learn the pro's & con's of it before thinking of using it in a project. It is a very powerful CMS but it might not be the best CMS for the project you have in mind.

    If you're going to make a full Drupal site your own I suggest you to learn it in this order.
    Drupal 6 basics
    Drupal 6 themes
    Drupal 6 Pro book (module development etc ...) --> even if you're not planning on developing your own modules, it's better to learn it so you can change the existing modules if necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fre420 View Post
    If you're going to make a full Drupal site your own I suggest you to learn it in this order.
    Drupal 6 basics
    Drupal 6 themes
    Drupal 6 Pro book (module development etc ...) --> even if you're not planning on developing your own modules, it's better to learn it so you can change the existing modules if necessary.
    Thanks, I already have the first 2 books. So it's going to be some time before I get through those.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fre420 View Post
    In Reddot (high end CMS system) we even made a CSS class adder, something that is also possible with the Drupal wysiwyg's.
    You just selected an hmtl element & choose from a dropdown which CSS class you wanted to use on it. This way we had proper control over the final output & the editors could experiment with different visual presentations.
    Exactly... We do this with tiny tinymce (a wysiwyg ui) and then have tutorial sessions with the people who will be editing the site showing them how to apply classes to text. It is quite handy to have a printout of a page introducing the editing interface and some done up with point form items showing which style does what.

    * I've just started working with fckeditor so I'm not as familiar with it but I have experimented with setting it up with carying degrees of functionality.

    Another feature that is important in this area is roles that the website visitors take. You have permissions for anonymous visitors and permissions for authenticated (logged in) visitors. You can also make up roles and apply permissions to them so that they may access different features of the site or perhaps different editorial control. Roles like: Staff, Editor, Admin, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fre420
    If you're going to make a full Drupal site your own I suggest you to learn it in this order.
    Drupal 6 basics
    Drupal 6 themes
    Drupal 6 Pro book (module development etc ...)
    Is sure wish these were around when I began getting my feet wet... I have Drupal 6 Pro book and it is very helpful in describing the underlying philosophy behind the system and how to manipulate it through module development, theming, templates, etc... Great book but a heavy read and I would have had trouble with it if I wasn't familiar with common terms and features of the system.

    Also try: O'Reilly | Using Drupal (I also have this book)
    I think it makes a good introduction and lets you set up a number of example sites with various modules and configurations. If I were to start all over, this would be the first book I would get.

    For messing around with Drupal, I have a laptop dual boot linux/vista... Both sides are set up for Drupal development using LAMP and WAMP stacks (just for fun). I find it more comfortable working on the linux side because it's closer to what I would expect of the production environment but if I were to work on the Vista WAMP side, it should be just as effective. I've also played with Drupal on a local IIS server with varying degrees of success (url rewrite is an issue) but the most exciting development in the hosting arena was being able to launch a production website on an IIS6 server with all the bells and whistles intact. I would have rather been on a UNIX/Linux server but it wasn't my call and once we had an IIS component in place to mimic mod_rewrite, it responded just like apache.

    For developing a client site, I usually create a subweb within my company website where I set up the drupal site. Once you've created one or two it's pretty easy to get the basic site going. Then it's a matter of developing the theme, adding content, fine tuning things and configuring it for whatever functionality you would like to include.

    * The first thing I remove is the login form and the powered by drupal logo on the bottom... You can get to the login at: http://the-website/user

    Well, I better get back to work
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development


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