SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 47
  1. #1
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    The arrogance of some sellers is breathtaking

    Here's a lesson in how not to do it:

    Guy comes on here and puts his site up for sale with a $1 starting bid and a $750K BIN.

    Like many sellers he over-estimates the quality of his domain and the value of his site. But that's what the market is for, right? Competitive bidding will show him just how much the market will bear for his site. People start bidding at $1 and keep outbidding each other till the highest price is reached. So what does he do? He makes fun of serious bidders to dissuade them from bidding.

    I put in a $50K placeholder till I could see the figures. One would think that's a reasonable enough figure to bid blind. I PM politely with my email address asking for his NDA. He laughs at me because my $50K is a joke, because it's below his (publicly undisclosed) reserve, says he accepted my bid only because he couldn't be bothered rejecting it, that I made my bid "just for show" and tells me he's not going to disclose anything about the revenue till my bid goes above his reserve. He won't even send me an NDA till I put in a bid approaching BIN!

    Sometimes people list sites only for some publicity and they have no intention to sell. The giveaway signs here are that he does want to sell. Strange then that he doesn't have the vaguest idea about how it all works, that you do the NDA and disclosure before the high bids - not after, and that treating buyers politely is a better way to get them to bid than by insulting them.

    In the auction thread he makes fun of someone who asks him to verify the site because they misspelled "verify".

    Way to go!

  2. #2
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    So this FruitCake person sends me a PM telling me about this post and how he's letting everyone know about me, this person can't seriously be an adult ....?

    Look, I didn't list this site on Sitepoint expecting it to actually sell here. Most all of the buyers are very small time and most of my PM's have pretty much just been people saying that exact thing "You won't sell a site like that here, there's no investors like that around Sitepoint". I didn't get the memo warning me about the know it all / drama queens, thanks a lot guys!

    I listed on Sitepoint in the off chance that an investor with some money to spend might be browsing for some reason and see the listing. It was 40 bucks, a fairly insignificant fee for the possibility of that happening. You say you put a "50k placeholder" till you could see the figures but in your PM it was a BID and you were demanding confidential information BASED ON THAT BID, you didn't say this is a place holder until I get more info. If you wanted to be taken more seriously maybe you should have made a more realistic bid or even bothered asking a question or something first rather than jumping to demanding proof and telling me to spend money on legal documentation for you.

    No one 'laughed' at anyone. I told you I wasn't about to go have legal papers drawn up for you based on a 50k bid that was no where even close to the reserve price. That and confidential data you were demanding based on your bid.

    Secondly, I said I had approved your bid basically because I was getting a lot of bids like that and thought it would be easier to just approve one of them than to constantly keep rejecting low bids, I didn't want to give you the impression I was considering selling the site for 50k. I reinforced that by saying the site makes 10,000 per month (as is says in the listing) just from the ad space. So obviously 50k is too low.

    He won't even send me an NDA till I put in a bid approaching BIN!
    I didn't say anything at all about making a bid close to the BIN, that's completely made up and shows that you're a bit disturbed.

    Sometimes people list sites only for some publicity and they have no intention to sell. The giveaway signs here are that he does want to sell. Strange then that he doesn't have the vaguest idea about how it all works, that you do the NDA and disclosure before the high bids - not after, and that treating buyers politely is a better way to get them to bid than by insulting them.
    I think this is more the other way around. I call this post itself more of a cry for attention. You probably had it drafted before you even made your bid. God, why didn't I just reject it /sigh

    You may think you know it all about buying and selling websites but I definitely see evidence of the exact opposite here. I think you're small time and you wish you were big time. This post is nothing more than your own cry for attention and you have no idea what you're talking about. Very sad post.

    Take this guys advice if you want to know how to be a drama queen, not do business.

    Sorry

    p.s. Maybe I should write a guide on how to waste time setting the facts straight after hurting small time buyers egos.

    -------edit--------

    Here is my reply PM to him after sending me a PM asking for confidential info and legal papers, this is cut and pasted directly, nothing is edited:

    Greetings,

    Your bid has not even come close to the reserve price, so it's more just for show. Until someone get's close to the reserve there's really no point in signing NDA's and creating excel break downs. I have been turning down bids like yours and I simply approved yours so I didn't have to keep going in and rejecting bids like it. If you want to bid 350k, or so, that's fine, I'll get an NDA drawn up but you don't seriously think we'd sell QJ for 50k right? I mean the site makes 10k a month just from ad space alone....

    I have the reserve currently set at 350k just FYI.
    Apparently he felt like I was 'quote', making fun of him according to his PM showing me that he had made this post, and that he's filthy rich and I made a big mistake messing with him.... Obviously this person has got some sort of emotional issues apart from his fantasy of being a big time investor. You can also clearly see that Mr. FruitCake makes stuff up out of thin air.

    Way to go!
    Last edited by pixeldustmarket; May 12, 2009 at 13:57.

  3. #3
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    5,840
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldustmarket View Post
    So this FruitCake person sends me a PM telling me about this post and how he's letting everyone know about me, this person can't seriously be an adult ....?
    I think it's an awesome post on how not to do business and thus a great thread.

    I listed on Sitepoint in the off chance that an investor with some money to spend might be browsing for some reason and see the listing.
    Someone like Fruit you mean?

    It was 40 bucks, a fairly insignificant fee for the possibility of that happening.

    ...

    telling me to spend money on legal documentation for you.
    You get an NDA for less than 40 bucks...


    No one 'laughed' at anyone.
    You have to admit, you were asanine and unprofessional throughout your auction process.

    1) No need to 'verift' the site
    I think anyone with an IQ over 40 wouldn't really need that. I have plenty of ways to prove my identity to anyone. I'm not having a text file uploaded to my root directory, you have no idea how much of a hassle that would be for something so stupid, sorry
    Yes, the hassle involved in opening Notepad, pasting a string of characters into it and then ftp'ing it is incredible. That might take almost an entire minute to do!

    If you honestly didn't want to sell the site, which is definetely the impression from your posts, why bother listing it?

  4. #4
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    pixeldustmarket, I sent you a link to this thread because I thought it fair to tip you off. I didn't think you'd take it as bait to dig a hole for yourself. (Yes, I'm in mixed metaphor mood today )

    I said nothing about being filthy rich, I'm a pauper by some standards. If I pointed you in the right direction to do some research on me it was to demonstrate my credentials - you made very clear you didn't want to deal with just anyone, you wanted to "qualify" bidders.

    If you had some chance of selling here, you've blown it now. As some people have pointed out - higher priced businesses tend to get sold more in businessforsale listing sites. I don't believe your site fits that market - assuming modest costs your asking multiple seems to be 50x net profit (and that's just the reserve). But as someone who advises, works with and/or writes for three of the biggest business listing websites, I can assure you that you'd need a completely different attitude if you wish to sell there. The higher the price the more stringent the due diligence, the more the seller needs to be willing to do to compile data and provide answers.

    You'd be surprised at how many $300K+ sites have sold in SP. What you don't know is that the visible bit is only half the story. A lot of the larger deals happen by PM (with no feedback either way) because privacy requirements increase in importance as the deal size increases.

    Talking about the price of NDAs, here's a shameless plug: I've got a free NDA on my site. Anyone can help themselves to it to use in a negotiation/transaction.

    It's worth getting all stats, NDA, Memorandum of Sale and even a Sales Contract ready prior to starting the process. Apart from showing you are organised it reassures the buyer that you're serious about selling. There's nothing worse than spending a lot of time on due diligence to discover the seller has changed his mind. Buyers want to see commitment to the process. And showing that you are organised bodes well - buyers see that as a bellwether for how easy handover is going to be.

    There's a thread here on How to Sell if any readers are interested.

    If I may extract something from your last PM:
    Do me a favor, next time you want to send me a message, go **** yourself instead, ok FruitCake?
    . OK, I'll work on that, thanks for the advice

  5. #5
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I was in aww of the whole auction thread
    Honestly, this quote was hilarious "No need to 'verift' the site." who would be stupid enouph to bid, if it wasn't verified? Verifiying a site is obvious to everyone with a 40 IQ and above.

    I'm getting ready to list my site. Of course, It's not even close to the price of that auction. It's treads like this that are giving me great tips on how/how not to list an auction.

    Dawn

  6. #6
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Awesome. Way to acknowledge how he lied about the original PM to begin with. Fan club much 71709? Back this self proclaimed expert up all you want, bottom line is he's just some drama queen that got upset, that's all this is. He doesn't have enough money to deal on this, I'm sure of it. When you pull your lips off of his exhaust, take a look at another side of it. Everything else is just fluff so he can mentally repair his damaged ego. While I do admit this thread is entertaining, I think that it's really nothing more than that, entertainment. It's obvious Sitepoint is not where you'd go to sell half a million dollar+ sites, write a guide about that if you want to write something useful.

    As for the Sitepoint file upload verification. Maybe that's necessary for little sites that sell here on a regular basis. Something that's going to go through Escrow, come on ... think... If someone bid 750k, I wouldn't say, ok, send me Paypal and then we'll do a GoDaddy push... My god, I have already done an equal amount of verification to that just by having a email on the domain. Something no one except me has access to. Like I said, this isn't some fly by night site you can just upload files to like that and it's not worth the trouble for something so useless and insignificant. I can understand why so many people here don't understand that though. In the end, if you haven't noticed, I really don't care what transpires on Sitepoint, honestly. I'll start caring when I sell a redistributable template or something on Sitepoint, ok? I'm sure you have a lot more expertise when it comes to that sort of sale.

    Thanks for the entertainment though, Fruity. :>

  7. #7
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    5,840
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I must give credit where credit is due.

    Arrogance was exactly the right term to use to describe this seller.

    Thin skinned and overly confrontational would have worked as well apparently.

    At least he came down from his original auction request of a minimum of $3.5 million for the site (unless he owns two sites in the same niche, with roughly the same amount of content, both with two letter domain names). Sucks that the revenue has dropped from 60k/mth to 10/mth in the space of a year though.

    Anyway, good luck with your sale Pixel. There really is no need to be so confrontational, you're going to give yourself a heart attack.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Drop us a note when you sell it for half a million dollars and I'll eat this Sitepoint server.

    But, in the meanwhile, no hard feelings pixel, old mate. All the best with your sale.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Sitepoint
    Posts
    525
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you want to bid 350k, or so, that's fine, I'll get an NDA drawn up but you don't seriously think we'd sell QJ for 50k right?
    pixeldustmarket, you don't seem to know the first thing about selling a site. When someone makes a first bid that's not the final price he's willing to pay. He waits till someone outbids him and then he bids higher. You're confusing a bid with a BIN. If someone bids $50K and ask for the paperwork he wants to verify the assets to justify a higher bid. That's quite normal but it's possible you have no experience with this sort of thing. Your inexperience is further evidenced by the fact that you set $1 as a starting bid. If $50K was going to be insulting to you should have set your starting bid at a higher figure.

    Back this self proclaimed expert
    He has demonstrated though his posts and his help to other members a) that he knows what he's talking about and b) that he's willing to share.

    If there's anyone who has demonstrated anything about himself, it's you, and you have done it in style!

    At least he came down from his original auction request of a minimum of $3.5 million for the site
    Nice catch tke!

  10. #10
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Shesh, why don't you guys bust out the massage oil. Sorry I don't bring my fan club over to defend me when I want to look like I know it all.

    Get off my nuts now? Maybe you should get a life too instead of doing your best to see what you can dig up on me... lol... pretty sad boys.

  11. #11
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    16,875
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Making the minimum bid $1 when the reserve is over 50k is just plain stupid. While the starting figure can be less than the reserve it should be at least of the same order of magnitude.
    Stephen J Chapman

    javascriptexample.net, Book Reviews, follow me on Twitter
    HTML Help, CSS Help, JavaScript Help, PHP/mySQL Help, blog
    <input name="html5" type="text" required pattern="^$">

  12. #12
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Making the minimum bid $1 when the reserve is over 50k is just plain stupid. While the starting figure can be less than the reserve it should be at least of the same order of magnitude.
    That was actually an accident, I meant to make it much higher but it wouldn't allow me to edit it.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Making the minimum bid $1 when the reserve is over 50k is just plain stupid.
    In this case there were bids of $1, $10, $100 and $30,000 before my bid. They were all rejected. From what I've observed with sales here, even the sites that sell for the higher amounts often go through the $1 type bids before reaching their six figure sale price. I believe if you've set a small start bid it's prudent to let those small bids play out so people can see the action. Having an active auction with lots of bidders is something I would consider more important than standing on a pedestal and insisting that bidding starts at some undisclosed, self-appointed figure that appeals to the buyer's ego.

    doing your best to see what you can dig up on me
    Some people here are better than others at due diligence. "Digging up" information is a vital skill when you're buying sites.

    fan club
    Fan club?! You can't be serious. I pay every single one of them a lot of money to say the things they do!

  14. #14
    King of Paralysis by Analysis bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    5,840
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldustmarket View Post
    Maybe you should get a life too instead of doing your best to see what you can dig up on me... lol... pretty sad boys.
    I didn't dig anything up on "you", I took 30 seconds to do some due diligence on your site by clicking on your Marketplace profile and going to your previous auctions.

    I'd consider it rather important to know that revenue has dropped 80% in the last year for a site if I was going to be shelling 50x revenue for it would I not? Although in your defence you did drop your asking price by almost 80% as well.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    6
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Starting wars with your customers is definitely the best way to sell... /s

    Pixel. I know you're trying to defend yourself, but you're just presenting a very sour and arrogant side. Business is business, so start acting like you're in one instead of in some sort of junior high pushing match.
    ~wm009

  16. #16
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have noticed several sites listed for sale where the owner states that they aren't going to be held to the low valuations that buyers here are going to put on their site, but this is probably the worst example because of the hostile attitude of the seller. I really don't understand what they hope to accomplish by listing the site if they know that people here aren't going to agree with their inflated wishing price for the site, but I'm sure Sitepoint doesn't mind collecting the listing fee.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just stopped in to say hi,.... Hi.

    You may now continue to gossip about me.

    Bye.

  18. #18
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't know what happened to the auction, it was suspended and then deleted. I did not report it or request any action be taken against it. I have nothing personal against you, pixeldustmarket, and I do sincerely wish you all the best with selling it.

    benitez17, as I was saying to an old timer here who PMed me about this, the problem you mention is a growing trend in even the businesses for sale sites like the Sunbelt network and businessesforsale.com. It used to be the case that business owners wanting to release capital approached a professional valuation company or broker to guide them on price and selling. Of late a lot of sellers have taken the DIY approach. This includes valuing their "babies" on greed or, to be charitable, on the effort they've put in rather than on market forces.

    I recently had numerous conversations with (and wrote an article for) a big UK business listing site and offline publication, daltonsbusiness, who've just branched out into selling Internet businesses. I can assure you that this problem is not isolated to Sitepoint.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's interesting. I figured it was just the inexperienced sellers on here, or people who figure they are basically buying a $20 or $40 lottery ticket when they list a site.

    Fruitmedley, I usually don't agree with your posts because of the hard stance you take towards a lot of sellers about valuing their time, but I have definitely noticed this trend as someone who has bought several sites here, and is looking to make some purchases at this time.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Smaller players tend not to see a distinction and the buyer of a $1000 site may happily "buy himself a job". As the guy spending his own money he is perfectly entitled to view the economics however he wants. But a seller not disclosing the full cost of his time in the calculation is cheating people - plain and simple. (This if, of course, in reply to your post and not pointing to anyone in this thread)

    I suspect the more experienced players here - from Edman to Peter Davis to tke71709 to hooperman to Dan to Jeremy Wright and numerous others - and anyone buying a $50K+ site would take a similarly "hard stance" on value of time. But it's entirely the buyer's prerogative and I'll make a note to come back to you if I'm ever selling a time-intensive site

  21. #21
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    329
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why except a bid and then tell the person it is too little to acknowledge their ?s

    And the seller is saying 50k is not worth acknowledging but he is worried about a $40. listing fee?

    Sounds like the potential buyer was just feeling things out and the seller is just arrogant and has completely over valued himself and his site.

    My guess is he won’t sell it any time soon and the site will sit for sale for a long time until the seller starts to get a realist idea of what it is really worth.

    Really you never know who a potential buyer might be… A lot of the people with big talk and good show are full of BS a lot of times and the people that seem like a waste of time are the people that end up being the guys with the real $ and the buy.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Bottom line is, you don't buy content networks strictly on how much profit they make. You won't find anything that's had any real $$ put in to it or anyone with a site near the size of mine willing to sell for that.

    It's sort of sad how you try to ingrain such a narrow minded way to valuate web assets. I can understand how that might be a safe way to go on smaller or newer websites, since that is the vast majority for sale on sitepoint. It's probably good advice for surviving as a new investor in that business or someone that's been failing with other investments. It also explains why there's so many adwords based turn key that sell here because someone could go think of something over night, run it for a month and by your logic it's worth a fortune if it turns a profit.

    I've been in this business for a long time and done plenty of large acquisitions personally and I just simply do not agree with what you're telling people as the universal way to value a website.

    But be honest, what's the biggest website you own? How much organic traffic does it produce? Do you really have knowledge when it comes to a website this size?

  23. #23
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    you don't buy content networks strictly on how much profit they make
    It's been pointed out to you before but you choose to conveniently ignore the facts. People buy sites - like they buy other assets - for the profit they can make from them in the future. Past earnings guide their expectation of future profit. That expectation of future profit is what drives the value for all assets across the business world - whether it's PE ratios for listed companies or yields on government bonds. And it's only profit.

    You won't find anything that's had any real $$ put in to it
    You can put millions into something that turns out to be completely worthless.

    You're perfectly entitled to not agree with me on how sites are valued. A lot of sellers don't, particularly those whose sites are labours of love with no prospect of ever becoming businesses (yes, you need to realise you're selling a business - I call that rule #1). But don't be surprised if buyers don't share your valuation methods and don't buy your site.

    Sellers can place any value on their site that they see fit - make it several trillion - and it's perfectly valid. Like you've done. Twice. Buyers, similarly, can place any value on a site - $0 is a favourite. And that's valid too - it's their opinion. But there's a transaction only when a buyer and seller both agree on a particular figure. And, to me, that's the real value. When that happens the buyer has used two estimates to arrive at the figure - his expectation of future profit and his estimation of the risk. I'm happy for anyone to prove otherwise.

    I don't need to disclose what I own to try and impress anyone. In the public domain is my Sitepoint article on valuation, the sites I've sold, extensive information in my signature site and with a bit of digging a lot more information about me, some of the businesses I've written for or advised, who I've provided consultancy services for etc. If you're smart you can even connect the below site with some of the other sites I own. I'll let readers decide how big or how small a player I am. But does it matter what they think? Not really - remember, I'm not selling any services here so I don't have to impress them. I come to buy sites (and, very rarely, to sell them). I get numerous PMs and emails every day asking for my advice. By that same token there may be people who think I know nothing at all and that I talk rubbish. I seriously don't mind if they do.

  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Fruitmedley, as someone who works on a hourly basis for the majority of my income and has so much work coming in right now that I barely have time to sleep, I understand the time value of money, but I think you have been rough on some people in the past over this point. Maybe you were able to get through to them because of it.

    I'd probably be happy to pay $100,000 for a site that required my attention for 30 - 40 hours per week but made $80,000+ without much risk (basically buying a job) because I usually work on a site until I make back the initial investment and then hire someone to keep it going so I can move on, but I understand that some people are slaving away for $1 per hour and don't even realize it.

  25. #25
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    329
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pixeldustmarket View Post
    Bottom line is, you don't buy content networks strictly on how much profit they make. You won't find anything that's had any real $$ put in to it or anyone with a site near the size of mine willing to sell for that.

    It's sort of sad how you try to ingrain such a narrow minded way to valuate web assets. I can understand how that might be a safe way to go on smaller or newer websites, since that is the vast majority for sale on sitepoint. It's probably good advice for surviving as a new investor in that business or someone that's been failing with other investments. It also explains why there's so many adwords based turn key that sell here because someone could go think of something over night, run it for a month and by your logic it's worth a fortune if it turns a profit.

    I've been in this business for a long time and done plenty of large acquisitions personally and I just simply do not agree with what you're telling people as the universal way to value a website.

    But be honest, what's the biggest website you own? How much organic traffic does it produce? Do you really have knowledge when it comes to a website this size?

    Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it..

    So if the potential buyer has their own way to validate worth that is what it is worth to them. And they are the ones that might buy it.

    The site seems to be worth a lot to you, probably more then it is to anyone else, so you have a case of someone who overvalues their own site and will never sell it.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •