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  1. #351
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Your proclaiming a form of government rule over the internet. That doesn't seem practical or reasonable. Who decides? – you? ,lol. I mean… how would this be judged? Its just not practical and goes against the openness of the web.
    Seriously, how is it a "government rule" over the Internet? It would only apply to those selling development services, personal websites make up a vast quantity of the web. You are exagerating the implications of what we suggested.

    PS: There is some regulation of the Internet (to some extent) anyway, their called ICANN

  2. #352
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    having a simple system in place where people can prove their skills would help keep the snake oil salesmen away.
    Quote Originally Posted by government:
    system by which a nation, state, or community is governed
    Quote Originally Posted by governed:
    1. conduct the policy, actions, and affairs of (a state, organization, or people) : he was incapable of governing the country
    2. control, influence, or regulate
    Sounds a lot like a government.

  3. #353
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    If you build a house to sell, it has to meet regulations, has to have safety checks required by law, has to meet building codes etc. Internal decoration is up to you but the structure has to be there, and has to be done & checked by qualified professionals.

    Of course if you wanted to build your own building on your own land for your use only, not to sell, you can do what you want with it (within reason I guess).

    Why is the web any different? Why is it exempt from these checks or levels of service when people are taking companies' money to develop websites for them? Why is it OK that these companies are spending money, and getting no assurance at all about how qualified/knowledgeable the developer is?

    If you are selling your web dev services, or creating a public service website, you should not be exempt from these assurances. This is already law in a lot of places, but isn't enforced all that well. Why not? Why shouldn't it be enforced?

    And in what way does this stop hobbyists? They can still create personal/fun/fan sites all they want, it's the people who provide a service (ie, taking peoples money a lot of the time) that should have to meet some sort of standard.

  4. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrider
    If you build a house to sell, it has to meet regulations, has to have safety checks required by law, has to meet building codes etc. Internal decoration is up to you but the structure has to be there, and has to be done & checked by qualified professionals.
    A poorly built home could be hazardous or result in injury or death. Hardly worth comparing the risks to a poorly built website. The risk of a poorly built website is minimal in comparison. Building a website that doesn't cater to the blind or deaf isn't discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by discrimination:
    the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things
    The keyword there is prejudicial. A inaccessible website is not harmful or hurtful to a individual. It just means they won't be able to use it. Hardly a prejudicial act. At most its not taking into consideration a audience. That audience being the blind, deaf,etc.

  5. #355
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    A poorly built home could be hazardous or result in injury or death. Hardly worth comparing the risks to a poorly built website.
    True, but there are systems in place to stop people getting ripped off / selling poor quality services in other areas where injury or death isn't a risk, why not the web?

  6. #356
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    You have to have a licence to cut hair? Maybe in the US...
    In the Netherlands it seems you need to have a diploma just to tie your shoes.

    You need a diploma to swim, to cut hair, to fix bikes, to sneeze... lawlz. Actually, I'm getting away with swimming without a diploma, but that's cuz no-one's asked me yet...

    Your proclaiming a form of government rule over the internet. That doesn't seem practical or reasonable.
    Huh, just about everything else has government rule. Why? Because people prove again and again and again that they will do whatever helps them and hurts others, again and again. Without a third party to force them to comply to standards, people don't and won't do it the right way, unless they pride themselves on doing it the right way. Pride doesn't work against money in a large corporation (heck I work for a tiny family insurance business and they also are willing to cut corners web-wise because they can get away with it... for now).

    If people could build unsafe houses they WILL because it's cheaper up front.
    If people could sell fake food or let the quality get dangerous they will.
    We know this because people do it every single time they've been allowed to get away with it. Rats in the sausage, sawdust instead of flour from Burea of Indian affairs, my (former) neighbour's illegal shack/garage with illegal renters in it (they're still alive so far).

    Crappy web design (not visual design here, we mean HTML and CSS) does not get punished. Instead, everyone else sees how everyone else is getting away with it, hey anyone can make a website, just a copy of dreamBeaver and goDaddy away! And nobody says or does anything, and this gets picked up by large companies who serve the public. Are you serving the public? Then you are like a restaurant-- you may be privately owned, but you are open to the public, and any place like that has regulations, for good reason.

    Ok, obviously I'm being ather Hobbsian here, except I don't accept abuse from the state as allowable (it is indeed also made up of greedy, evil, brutish human beings as well).

    The keyword there is prejudicial. A inaccessible restaurant is not harmful or hurtful to a individual. It just means they won't be able to use it. Hardly a prejudicial act. At most its not taking into consideration a audience. That audience being the black, jewish,etc.
    By just changing from one non-life-important thing (a web site) to another (a restaurant) and from changing from one minority (the disabled) to another (racial/religious minorties) it suddenly becomes quite illegal in many, many countries. Why? (maybe why is a rhetorical question, maybe it's not)

    In any case, a yellow screen of death or any such thing would really help. You did it wrong, so it doesn't work, doesn't half-work, doesn't earn you a dime. It can be that impartial third party who says "you did it wrong, try again." And, it cannot submit to corruption. The ultimate judger! Yay! Hmm, didn't someone (several someones) write a sci-fi where when such a thing appeared, an impartial and fair judge, disaster appeared?

  7. #357
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrider
    True, but there are systems in place to stop people getting ripped off / selling poor quality services in other areas where injury or death isn't a risk, why not the web?
    How would one determine the websites required to follow the standard and those that don't? The distinction between a business and non-business can be very ambiguous. Furthermore, if this were to be enforced then a "black market" would eventually emerge for those people who don't want to pay for the proper services to produce a site that followed the standards. The entire concept of segregating standards vs. non-standard sites seems like it raises more problems then it solves.

  8. #358
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    In the Netherlands it seems you need to have a diploma just to tie your shoes.
    Stomme, I bet your shoes are velcro

  9. #359
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes
    By just changing from one non-life-important thing (a web site) to another (a restaurant) and from changing from one minority (the disabled) to another (racial/religious minorties) it suddenly becomes quite illegal in many, many countries. Why? (maybe why is a rhetorical question, maybe it's not)
    Unless that restaurant threw rocks at African Americans or Jewish people I don't see how this is a practical scenario. At which point the act of injuring another person falls under the category of battery or assault. Discrimination is defined by act of harm not prejudice. So long as the act doesn't cause harm or injury it isn't discrimination.

  10. #360
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Oddz, if that definition is accurate then denying a wheelchair user into your shop is not discrimination?

    I always took discrimination to be a prejudice against a particular group or minority, harm or no harm.

  11. #361
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    Discrimination is a act of harm. Prejudice is contained thought. They are very different. One can have prejudice toward a particular racial group and be protected under free speech. However, once that prejudice reaches the point of discrimination which it results in harm then it becomes a illegal act. At least this is the case in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    Oddz, if that definition is accurate then denying a wheelchair user into your shop is not discrimination?
    What is to stop a blind person from visiting a website that hasn't been made the upmost accessible to them? They can still visit the site although they may not have a very rich experience based on their disability. This doesn't mean they can't visit the site though in my opinion. They can't experience the site but that isn't the same as being able to go to. They can still go to it. Nothing is stopping them from typing in the address and visiting the site.

  12. #362
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    Noone is talking about throwing rocks, but if you ran a business that said 'Sorry, we don't serve Jewish people', that would be equivalent to a website which says 'Sorry, we don't serve blind people', no?

  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrider
    Noone is talking about throwing rocks, but if you ran a business that said 'Sorry, we don't serve Jewish people', that would be equivalent to a website which says 'Sorry, we don't serve blind people', no?
    Accessible means able to be reached or visited. Nothing is stopping a person who is blind or deaf from visiting the site. Accessibility has nothing to do with the richness of the experience by definition. What you and AlexDawson are referring to is enhancing the disabled experience which has nothing to do with accessability based on its definition. Currently the experience is not protected under any law that I know of. The establishment just needs to be accessible.

  14. #364
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    I think a hell of a lot of accessibility experts would disagree with you that all accessibility is about is being able to type the url and visit the page... Accessibility has EVERYTHING to do with the richness of the experience, at least on the web it does.

  15. #365
    Theoretical Physics Student bronze trophy Jake Arkinstall's Avatar
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    @Oddz: I don't think any designer in their right mind should ever make a website which isn't usable by those less fortunate. Making a website accessible is extremely important - in fact, it should be the main thing that you're thinking about when writing the HTML!

    Making a website which can't be used by partially-sighted or hard-of-hearing is, in my opinion, a crime!

    Put yourself in the position of a blind person, heck you can put a blindfold on and try navigating the web, and you'll soon feel the frustration that they feel everyday when someone couldn't give a crap about marking it up properly.

    One day you'll look back on those posts and wish to go back in time and slap yourself.
    Jake Arkinstall
    "Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
    Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona

  16. #366
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    I'm not saying these things aren't important. I'm saying that they aren't required by law. Its a courtesy not a requirement based the audience.

  17. #367
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    They are in some countries, depends where you live. The Sydney Olympics website famously got sued for accessibility reasons, it's part of the Disability Discrimination Act 2004 in the country, and I believe the EU were going to introduce new laws on it. The US has Section 508 for government sites, and there was a recent lawsuit against Target about the accessibility of their site.

  18. #368
    Theoretical Physics Student bronze trophy Jake Arkinstall's Avatar
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    To be honest, I couldn't care less if the law didn't say it.

    The law doesn't tell you to use HTML, to handcode it instead of using WYSIWYG, to create valid markup - but you (hopefully) do it anyway, don't you?

    Then why not make it accessible? If you understand the process and you apply it whilst you're coding, then it won't change your development time.
    Jake Arkinstall
    "Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
    Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona

  19. #369
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    Because I don't think its fair to everyone else. As much as I believe in standard oriented practices I don't believe they should be enforced by authoritative rule. I believe standards oriented practices should stay optional for those that believe in them to practice, but not restrict those who don't.

    Maybe the focus should be on educating people outside the web industry on the importance of these things rather then exerting a type of authoritative control. Educating people on how these types of practices will benefit them is surly a better way to go in my opinion.

  20. #370
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
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    You can 'educate' people all you want, but they will always pick the easier, cheaper option if they aren't told they can't, as Stomme poes said.

    Why is it not fair to force companies and service providers to cater for disabled people? Seems like a very backwards argument to me.

  21. #371
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    I guess each society decides what they think is important, but the ones who consider themselves "civilised" (each having their own view of what that means) try to strike a balance between Majority Rule (pure/direct democracy, which impinges on the rights or freedoms of the minorities) and Minority Rule (a small group determines the rules for everyone, which is implicitly unfair).

    It's not illegal in the US for a restaurant to put a "no blacks allowed" sign on their door? I thought it was, but indeed I'm pretty sure it would be hard to prove in any court that this would constitute harm, especially if it's not a very good restaurant anyway.

    Oddz, you asked how one would determine the rules. At least within a country (which yes the internet goes beyond borders we know), it's often via court case and precedence, after some governing body makes up a list of rules. People challenge those rules, and if the rules are overturned then the law may be removed. A rather slow evolution, and not always in the right direction.

    I think, at least starting with the disability/accessibility side of things, the law has been moving in for quite some time in many countries. There have been stirrings (though nothing more) in the EU. In some countries one can sue a website's owner over accessibility while in other countries you can't. Well, women's lib didn't storm the world all at once either.

    Though I'm not sure if it'll go any further than that (there are no laws that programs written in language X need to be valid or without errors either).

    @arkinstall: oddz is being the devil's advocate here, but don't confuse that with oddz' being pro-bad-website or anti-disabled-visitors. Most if not all of us here write standards-based code because we consider ourselves professionals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex
    Stomme, I bet your shoes are velcro
    I wish. I love velcro shoes. Velcro is my friend, and I don't even have arthritis yet! Once I was in the US and looked-- they were all orthopedic shoes for old people. Looking around here, there are more, but all trendy overpriced brand name shoes. I just want simple shoes!!

    Off Topic:

    I has a new kitteh!

  22. #372
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy
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    Standards are a great thing, but with tight deadlines(high end jobs) people usually throw standards out the window. I am not talking about me personally, but more of a general dev.

    How many sites online truly follow standards(as they should)?.... a low percentage in fact... So what Oddz is saying, are we going to ignore these people just because they are not educated enough or just don't care???

  23. #373
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy
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    You can't force anyone to do anything even though it might be the 'right way of doing things'...

    You could say "we should force users to upgrade from ie6 to to ie7+". Again, this is not fair.....

  24. #374
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Maybe the focus should be on educating people outside the web industry on the importance of these things rather then exerting a type of authoritative control. Educating people on how these types of practices will benefit them is surly a better way to go in my opinion.
    People can only be educated if they want to learn, and the kinds of people who refuse to adhere to standards are not interested in why they are important, therefore preaching to them will not solve the issue. Educating businesses about the benefits of well made websites has been a method used for a fair number of years and still the problem is occuring because of those who (1) don't care, (2) are lasy or (3) just want to cut corners to increase the profit margin even if it affects the quality.

  25. #375
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Web development is a lemon market. Businesses don't know what a good or bad website is, so they have to buy based on looks. I blame this for the proliferation of unnecessary Flash sites and intros. Lawlz.


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