SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 14 of 17 FirstFirst ... 41011121314151617 LastLast
Results 326 to 350 of 402
  1. #326
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Ankh-Morpork
    Posts
    12,158
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    That's exactly what I want, at least. I WANT a yellow screen of death.
    Then XHTML, served as such, might be for you. It's not for me, but different strokes for different folks is just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I want my code to stand up and scream bloody murder "YOU FORGOT A CLOSING TAG!!!"
    I don't. Especially if the closing tag is completely unnecessary. If it's not, its absence is usually visible anyway (too much text being bolded; content in the wrong place; etc.). The difference is that the content is still accessible for users, while I curse and fix the problem. They're not shut out by a YSoD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    This would definitely benefit me as I am forced to work with a coder who, if he quickly needs to add something to an online copy of my pages and it needs to be centered, he'll go ahead happily with <center> tags.
    XHTML will not prevent anyone from using <center> tags (as long as the markup is still well-formed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Why/how could errors come after the thing is online late? Only by my being lazy and not checking beforehand-- especially if one little error is giving me a whatever screen of death.
    As I said: a simplistic templating system can cause this. If you don't write the whole page, but only the content part, you can't test or validate it until it's been uploaded into the template engine. This is the situation I have with my current blog (the first PHP app I ever wrote, to which the word 'clueless' is very well suited). And it's happened more than once: I upload an article, check it in my browser and get a well-formedness error message. Despite years of experience, above-average markup skills, a syntax-highlighting and autoindenting text editor, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Sometimes the validator doesn't complain about a real error
    That would be a problem with the validator, not with HTML as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    (since HTML4 still lets you forget a /li or a /p you didn't mean to).
    No it doesn't. It's just a lot smarter than XHTML and can figure out where they should go, so it lets you be implicit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    No, so long as the page is still live-if-slightly-embarassing, it means you don't have to fix it. And so people don't.
    You have a point there, of course. As long as it doesn't display correctly, I think it will be fixed. But if the error is taken care of by browsers' amazing error handling, then you'll need to validate to find it. That's something you have to add to your workflow routine, just like testing-XHTML-before-uploading … oh, wait …

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Their often heavily invalid HTML and general poor writing cause problems for plenty of people, those not using IE in Windows etc, accessibility reasons... why do they get away with it? Because HTML lets them.
    No, HTML doesn't allow any bad practices that cause accessibility problems. The error handling and recovery in browsers does, but it's not fair to blame that on HTML which doesn't even specify how errors should be handled. That's one thing HTML5 is trying to rectify, and one of the positive aspects about HTML5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    If it didn't let them, they would either give up, or hire someone, or learn it the right way, like we do with other professions.
    And we'd get an élitist guild of professionals with a monopoly on web publishing. In my eyes that'd be a severe threat against democracy and freedom of speech – two concepts that I cherish.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  2. #327
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,287
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    *huh, nasty, double post!

  3. #328
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,287
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    The center tag thing was the first thing to come to mind because it was the most recent thing he's done-- every page I've written except one is currently invalid in its online form. The one who IS valid is only so because the boss let me hold a whip (evil grin) and said, "it's not going online until she approves it". w00t.

    And we'd get an élitist guild of professionals with a monopoly on web publishing. In my eyes that'd be a severe threat against democracy and freedom of speech – two concepts that I cherish.
    I dunno that knowing how to do something correctly = elitist. We let people write articles for newspapers but we sure as heck don't let them print them (printers do that, run the presses).

    I don't think it's elitist to let those fluent in French to write French novels (as opposed to people like me who know a handful of French words at most).

    I don't think it's elitist to have a certified car mechanic fix my car. Yeah, my neighbour could do it in the shade, but it had better pass emissions and other standards.

    I don't find it elitist because unlike by blood or birth or impossible means, anyone *could* learn HTML, just as anyone *could* learn French or how to fix a car. None of those is (sorry Gary I need to steal your phrase) rocket surgery.

    And of course I don't want to learn French, so what do I do? Logically, I write my novel and have a professional translator translate it into French FOR me. This is absolutely NOT the same as, say, having Babelfish do it for me (unless I was trying to make something strange, weird and funny).

    But that's me. And sure, if you want to replace "user agent" for everywhere I said "HTML" that's fine, same thing for me. idon'thavetoputspacesorpronounciation everywhereforyoutounderstandwhat Imsayingbutiwant thistolookreallyreallyreallybad and crash burn die insteadofyouhavingtotrytoreadit.

  4. #329
    Theoretical Physics Student bronze trophy Jake Arkinstall's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Lancaster University, UK
    Posts
    7,062
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree 100&#37;.

    There are too many 'professional' web designers out there that really don't know what they're doing, and hand over dodgy designs that simple work due to a lucky combination of floating and margin numbers which, if altered, would mutilate the page beyond belief.

    Give the web some credibility back and demand some real form and structure!

    I feel a metaphor coming on.... Markup is the scaffolding of a page - HTML is missing braces and joins simply because it stays up, whereas XHTML goes through the process of making sure those braces and joints are there.

    I'd rather the surveyor (or, out of metaphor-land, the browser) to try and knock the thing over (unsuccessfully) than for him to just look at it and say 'its up, it passes'.
    Jake Arkinstall
    "Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
    Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona

  5. #330
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Ankh-Morpork
    Posts
    12,158
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I dunno that knowing how to do something correctly = elitist. We let people write articles for newspapers but we sure as heck don't let them print them (printers do that, run the presses).
    Nothing is stopping you from printing your own newspaper. You probably wouldn't sell many copies, but you are allowed to try.

    Most online newspapers here in Sweden now allow reader comments to most of their articles. Reading those is almost physically painful for a grammar and spelling nazi like me, but I would never want to take away people's right to voice their opinions. Imagine if you'd have to hire a professional writer just to comment on current affairs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I don't think it's elitist to let those fluent in French to write French novels (as opposed to people like me who know a handful of French words at most).
    You or I are allowed to attempt to write novels in French. Again, few people would read them, but no French Language SWAT Team would come crashing through our windows and drag us off to the dungeons. (On second thought, I'm not so sure about that, we're talking about the French and their language after all...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I don't think it's elitist to have a certified car mechanic fix my car. Yeah, my neighbour could do it in the shade, but it had better pass emissions and other standards.
    Exactly. You or your neighbour are allowed to do it yourselves. You're not forced to hire an expensive mechanic to do an oil change. But the part about emissions testing is great, because it ties nicely into the web analogy: we should place higher demands on some sites than others. Just as no-one cares whether your car's brake lights work as long as you're only driving it in your backyard, amateur web sites should be given some leeway. If you venture out on public roads (or make a commercial or government web site), you should be under obligation to ensure that it's safe (comply with standards and be accessible).

    Of course even amateur web sites should be valid and accessible, but we're not living in Shangri-La. In the real world everything is a compromise. Isn't it better to have forgiving browsers and let 'anyone' make themselves heard, than to require almost superhuman strictness and reserve that right to a select &#233;lite?

    Do you think the web would have been anything remotely as successful as it's been if there had been draconian error handling from the start? Not a chance.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  6. #331
    SitePoint Member zbatia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am an XHTML fanatic since it has established rules of usage and does not allow to mess with the script hoping that IE will read the page correctly anyway.

    All these conversations about HTML 4 vs HTML 5 remind me the conversations like "XP does this ...but Vista does that".
    No matter what you think (I don't exclude myself), the HTML 5 is a way to go. Google just announced the "Google I/O 2009" developer conference where it promotes HTML 5 because it intends to use it for web applications. I believe (also did not check) that Chrome 2.0 will be adopting a new standard better than IE 8. Just watch...

  7. #332
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I used to like the 'strictness' of XHTML, but there is nothing stopping you putting the closing tags into HTML if you wanted to. The scaffolding analogy is a bit rubbish to be honest - the page doesn't fall apart because you miss out closing </li> or </p> tags, it is allowed in the spec. You could say that XHTML is overengineered (A friend of mine says there is no such thing as over-engingeering - it is really under-engineering, because they didn't think about it properly).

    I do also partly agree with the 'web development should be left to web professionals' - I think it should be enforced in so far as company / public service websites go. They should be made to adhere to the standards, and be accessible etc as well. Hobbyist sites, or personal sites or whatever could be exempt, meaning anyone can still publish what they like, but proper company and service websites meet a standard.

    Nothing is stopping a hobbyist learning these standards and becoming a professional anyway, that is how most people here started I'm willing to bet. Unlike with car repair, where you'd need a formal qualification before being allowed to do the work professionally (at least I imagine you would), there is no such barrier for the web - but that doesn't mean any old rubbish for official sites should be tolerated.

  8. #333
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    1,432
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I doubt (real)xhtml will ever hit the corporate world. It goes against everything a corporation stands for (rapid development being a major one)...

    Corporations will do everything in their power to make sure html is still the working standard, thus jumping on the html5 bandwagon

  9. #334
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Stormrider, I am of the opinion that businesses or organisational websites should be forced to adhere to standards (accessibility law et al), I doubt they would ever do it but it would be nice if WaSP or W3C started up a system for "registered web designers" who adhere to best practices so good professionals could be easily identified (I mean it does not take much to inspect a website to see under the hood how good they really are).

  10. #335
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Georgia, United States
    Posts
    4,194
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    All these aside,footer.nav,etc elements just seem like over glorified divisions. I'm not really fan. However, if I must learn to use them I will. I think keeping it simple with one section element and using a nl element for navs would work well. I also, really like to be able to add a href attribute to any element. Something HTML5 should surely think of implementing. In my opion HTML5 just needs to scrap everything and look to XHTML2 for guidance. The enhancement to definitions lists is something I would really like to see also.

  11. #336
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Georgia, United States
    Posts
    4,194
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Two things I would be very pleased to see in HTML5.

    Navigation Lists
    HTML Code:
    <nl>
    	<legend></legend>
    	<li href="#">home</li>
    	<li href="#">products</li>
    	<li href="#">cart</li>
    </nl>

    Enhancement To Definitions Lists
    HTML Code:
    <dl>
    	<di>
    		<dt></dt>
    		<dd></dd>
    	</di>
    	<di>
    		<dt></dt>
    		<dd></dd>
    	</di>
    </dl>
    However, this will probably happen when pigs fly.

  12. #337
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Stormrider, I am of the opinion that businesses or organisational websites should be forced to adhere to standards (accessibility law et al), I doubt they would ever do it but it would be nice if WaSP or W3C started up a system for "registered web designers" who adhere to best practices so good professionals could be easily identified (I mean it does not take much to inspect a website to see under the hood how good they really are).
    Yup, this is what I think should happen as well. Every other industry has some kind of qualification to show you are able to do it, why doesn't web design?

  13. #338
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Especially when we are making business decisions that can impact peoples lives... we follow standards to allow people with disabilities access to the web, we are also the people who ensure support for methods of accessing services and we are also the people who research behavior (alike psychologists) and implement technologies and breakthroughs in computer science... yet anyone can call themselves a professional, make decisions and end up damaging businesses. Crazy

  14. #339
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Georgia, United States
    Posts
    4,194
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Totalitarian rule isn't the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    Especially when we are making business decisions that can impact peoples lives...
    Web development isn't brain surgery. There isn't a need to enforce strict rules. I haven't heard of anyone dieing lately or being injured due to the fact that a website is terrible.

    As much as I agree that there should be a set of standards I don't believe that freedom should be sacrificed.

    Yup, this is what I think should happen as well. Every other industry has some kind of qualification to show you are able to do it, why doesn't web design?
    Design in general is a very subjective field. There wouldn't be any reasonable or relaistic way to enforce such qualifications.

  15. #340
    bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    2,670
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    All these aside,footer.nav,etc elements just seem like over glorified divisions. I'm not really fan. However, if I must learn to use them I will.
    You don't have to use them if you don't want to.

    However, once implemented in browsers and assistive technology, if you use them and use them correctly, users will be able to more easily navigate around in the document e.g. skip to the navigation section or skip past it. Well, at least for <nav> -- the others have less clear practical benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    I think keeping it simple with one section element and using a nl element for navs would work well.
    The navigation might not necessarily be a list. <nav> is more flexible than <nl> because you can mark up the navigation either as a list (<nav><ul>) or in some other way if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    I also, really like to be able to add a href attribute to any element. Something HTML5 should surely think of implementing.
    It was implemented by allowing <a href> around blocks. Allowing href on every element was rejected for various reasons. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#HTML...any_element.21

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    In my opion HTML5 just needs to scrap everything and look to XHTML2 for guidance.
    That's pretty much what was done back in 2003. HTML5 started from a clean slate. I think at this point there is nothing in XHTML2 that hasn't been considered several times for HTML5.

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    The enhancement to definitions lists is something I would really like to see also.

    Enhancement To Definitions Lists
    HTML Code:
    <dl>
    	<di>
    		<dt></dt>
    		<dd></dd>
    	</di>
    	<di>
    		<dt></dt>
    		<dd></dd>
    	</di>
    </dl>
    http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/wh...ay/019694.html

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Navigation Lists
    HTML Code:
    <nl>
    	<legend></legend>
    	<li href="#">home</li>
    	<li href="#">products</li>
    	<li href="#">cart</li>
    </nl>
    Use
    HTML Code:
    <nav>
     <!-- <h1> instead of <legend> -->
     <ul>
      <li><a href="#">home</a></li>
      <li><a href="#">products</a></li>
      <li><a href="#">cart</a></li>
     </ul>
    </nav>
    Simon Pieters

  16. #341
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    990
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrider View Post
    Every other industry has some kind of qualification to show you are able to do it, why doesn't web design?
    No, they don't. Industries that have "certification" or licensing, have it for the sole purpose of limiting entry into the field. Look at barbers and doctors. Have you ever had a bad haircut? My cleaning lady can cut hair as well as maybe 75% of all barbers. Doctors and their hospitals are the third largest cause of death in the U.S..

    "Is US Health Really the Best in the World?", published in the Journal of the American Medical Association and written by Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH. In this paper Dr. Starfield gives the following statistics:
    • 7,000 deaths occur each year due to medication errors in hospitals
    • 12,000 deaths occur each year due to unnecessary surgery
    • 20,000 deaths occur each year due to other hospital errors
    • 80,000 deaths occur each year due to nosocomial infections in hospitals
    • 106,000 deaths occur each year due to adverse effects to properly prescribed medications


    This equals 225,000 deaths due to what are known as iatrogenic causes. That's 4˝ times the number of traffic fatalities each year, and 4˝ times per year the number of Americans killed in ten years of the Vietnam war, and just 75,000 short of Americans killed in four years of WWII fighting. This would place them as the third leading cause of death - just above cerebrovascular diseases at 162,672 deaths.

    Yeah, licensing doctors, nurses, and barbers really shows us how qualified they are.

    cheers,

    gary
    Anyone can build a usable website. It takes a graphic
    designer to make it slow, confusing, and painful to use.

    Simple minded html & css demos and tutorials

  17. #342
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Web development isn't brain surgery. There isn't a need to enforce strict rules. I haven't heard of anyone dieing lately or being injured due to the fact that a website is terrible.
    The fact that you would even use such a comparitive is enough to throw that comment out of the window. Just because peoples lives aren't at risk does not mean that they could not suffer as a result of sloppy development.

    As an example: What if a blind person needs to have access to their financial records 24/7 as they run a business and need to be aware of all income and outgoing expenses, unfortunately for them their banks website has been coded in such a way that their screen reader cannot view the information. People use the Internet to make all sorts of important decisions from where to go on holiday (hidden costs may be an issue - as in hidden in the page where it is not visible unless you have 20/20 vision), contacting businesses and government services to the extent that a poorly created website could severely intefere with their lives.

    I guess you just do not see the bigger picture (or at least are not aware of the extent and importance that accessibility holds - I have spent time with people who aren't lucky enough to be able to browse like the rest of us and they tend to be rather fraustrated). Creating websites is a professional career and for those of us who actually care about our work, we don't want to make people suffer any more than they have too. (Most of us aren't sadists )

    Plus: With the amount of developers out there charging a fortune for a 12th rate service, it is pretty much the equilivent of defrauding the customer and I don't like the idea of the web industry (and its professionals) images being tarnished for the sake of the thousands of corrupt individuals who would happily take someones cash and hand them back some p00p covered in glitter.

  18. #343
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gary.turner View Post
    No, they don't. Industries that have "certification" or licensing, have it for the sole purpose of limiting entry into the field. Look at barbers and doctors. Have you ever had a bad haircut? My cleaning lady can cut hair as well as maybe 75% of all barbers. Doctors and their hospitals are the third largest cause of death in the U.S..

    "Is US Health Really the Best in the World?", published in the Journal of the American Medical Association and written by Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH. In this paper Dr. Starfield gives the following statistics:
    • 7,000 deaths occur each year due to medication errors in hospitals
    • 12,000 deaths occur each year due to unnecessary surgery
    • 20,000 deaths occur each year due to other hospital errors
    • 80,000 deaths occur each year due to nosocomial infections in hospitals
    • 106,000 deaths occur each year due to adverse effects to properly prescribed medications


    This equals 225,000 deaths due to what are known as iatrogenic causes. That's 4˝ times the number of traffic fatalities each year, and 4˝ times per year the number of Americans killed in ten years of the Vietnam war, and just 75,000 short of Americans killed in four years of WWII fighting. This would place them as the third leading cause of death - just above cerebrovascular diseases at 162,672 deaths.

    Yeah, licensing doctors, nurses, and barbers really shows us how qualified they are.

    cheers,

    gary
    You have to have a licence to cut hair? Maybe in the US...

    As for the doctors/hospitals thing, what a ridiculous comparison. Of course they have a high death rate in hospitals, they are hospitals, full of injured/ill/dying people!

    The trouble is, most companies or whatever buying someone's web services has no idea what the difference between a well coded and badly coded site is, and who can offer each. With a haircut, you know if you've been ripped off and can just not go there again.

    I'm not saying totalitarian rule or anything, nothing should stop hobbyists publishing sites, but I think there should be some kind of qualification for those wanting to charge for web development services, and I think accessibility/standards should be more strictly enforced for public service websites.

  19. #344
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I again agree with stormrider, if money is exchanging hands in most countries under law you are entitled to recieve what you pay for, and no-one in their sane mind would pay for a piece of workmanship which was poorly constructed (if they were aware of it), we do not want to end up like used car salesmen who claim things that simply arent true and after purchasing the car the buyer finds out the thing breaks down just past the 30 day return point.

    Someone who proclaims themself a professional and charges as such should be what they say, how do we determine who is a professional, that is the matter we were discussing and having a simple system in place where people can proove their skills would help keep the snake oil salesmen away.

  20. #345
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Georgia, United States
    Posts
    4,194
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    s an example: What if a blind person needs to have access to their financial records 24/7 as they run a business and need to be aware of all income and outgoing expenses, unfortunately for them their banks website has been coded in such a way that their screen reader cannot view the information. People use the Internet to make all sorts of important decisions from where to go on holiday (hidden costs may be an issue - as in hidden in the page where it is not visible unless you have 20/20 vision), contacting businesses and government services to the extent that a poorly created website could severely intefere with their lives.
    Like any other service its the institutions responsibility to hire a qualified individual or company. If they would like to sacrifice quality due to a low budget or some other reason then that is their concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    I guess you just do not see the bigger picture (or at least are not aware of the extent and importance that accessibility holds - I have spent time with people who aren't lucky enough to be able to browse like the rest of us and they tend to be rather fraustrated). Creating websites is a professional career and for those of us who actually care about our work, we don't want to make people suffer any more than they have too. (Most of us aren't sadists )
    People should have options like any other service. If they want to hire someone who isn't all that great then that is their choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    Plus: With the amount of developers out there charging a fortune for a 12th rate service, it is pretty much the equilivent of defrauding the customer and I don't like the idea of the web industry (and its professionals) images being tarnished for the sake of the thousands of corrupt individuals who would happily take someones cash and hand them back some p00p covered in glitter.
    Again, like any other service its up to customer.

    Web development isn't the only industry that hacks exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson
    Someone who proclaims themself a professional and charges as such should be what they say, how do we determine who is a professional, that is the matter we were discussing and having a simple system in place where people can proove their skills would help keep the snake oil salesmen away.
    Your proclaiming a form of government rule over the internet. That doesn't seem practical or reasonable. Who decides? – you? ,lol. I mean… how would this be judged? Its just not practical and goes against the openness of the web.

  21. #346
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Like any other service its the institutions responsibility to hire a qualified individual or company. If they would like to sacrifice quality due to a low budget or some other reason then that is their concern.
    I disagree, when we are talking about accessibility it is a matter that disabled people have the right not to be discriminated against, you would not see a shop tell a wheelchair user to get out, why should the web be any different

    The problem isn't it's their choice, most people aren't aware they are getting a bad designer which IS the problem. Who would choose to go with a poor quality professional? I understand people going with a cheap person, but no-one intentially chooses bad service.

  22. #347
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The law in this country, and several others, quite rightly requires companies to make reasonable adjustments in terms of accessibility and for disabled people. For the web, these adjustments really aren't difficult, so it is very hard to see how it could be 'unreasonable' to make an accessible website.

  23. #348
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Stormrider, exactly... our industry has legal implications as well as psychological ones, the Internet is vastly becoming the hub of commerce as we are the people who keep the cogs turning it just makes sense to me that perhaps some basic level of quality assurance should be made. The only people I know who would object to a scheme that encourages professional development are ironically the ones who have been getting away with low quality workmanship.

  24. #349
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Georgia, United States
    Posts
    4,194
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    How would a qualified professional be determined? The design industry is subjective. You can validate mark-up but not visual communication. It seems very arrogant to me for anyone to say that others work is inferior. Especially based on such subjective principles of design. Maybe not mark-up, but design surely one "qualified" individual has a differing opinion then another.

  25. #350
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    How would a qualified professional be determined? The design industry is subjective. You can validate mark-up but not visual communication.
    I'm not talking about design. Obviously there are some aspects you can measure - colour contrast, clarity etc, but it is mostly subjective. I'm not suggesting those should be regulated. If a company wants a bad looking website, that is their call.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •