Separating Structure and presentation

[cooper.semantics]

at times it's just necessary to step outside what's ideal and have a presentational element in your code if it makes the project a success and the solution a solid, reliable one. Pragmatism can be the difference between your project succeeding or failing.

Explain what presentational elements you are referring to....

[Alex]

Explain what presentational elements you are referring to....

I'm not referring to any in particular. I'm just stating that I deal with cases where best practice is to avoid something and use a slightly different, but much more efficient alternative - but the boss/client/etc steps in and says no.

In such cases, it's not possible to maintain best practice and do your job properly. I was about as strong of a standard compliant and semantic markup supporter as anyone when I started working for people other than myself. I quickly realized that front-end development is so visual and presentational, when you have others deciding on the results, you sometimes lose the power to control how it's achieved.

In addition to all of that, when you try to explain to a boss/client that you need more time to make their site efficient/compliant/semantic/accessible and they tell you they don't care because it works on their monitor - you move do what you have to.

The point comes back to what was originally stated by the ever-accurate Mr. AutisticCuckoo:

we may still have to bloat our markup a little bit with extra IDs or classes. That's where we need to be pragmatists, rather than zealots.

So, in the end, I'm saying that we have to do our best as web developers to maintain these principles and promote them in our own work with extraordinary precision; but we have to be pragmatic with our work at the same time.

Alex

[cooper.semantics]

I can understand

I work in a large publishing company as a web developer and all of the designers think the web is a piece of paper

It just takes a little more work and planning out a nicely semantic schema

[Alex]

I can understand

I work in a large publishing company as a web developer and all of the designers think the web is a piece of paper

It just takes a little more work and planning out a nicely semantic schema

I'm familiar with the paper-media-minded client, that's for sure! No lack of relation there my friend.

Indeed with enough planning and time you can often overcome these issues, but my boss just plain refuses to allow for the development time. They don't consider accessibility/usability/content or semantics much of an issue or to be of much importance.

This is not always the case, but has been quite frequent for me.

Alex

[Stomme poes]

Same here, I work for an insurance company. They don't know what teh interwebz is, a sort of money tree I guess. Luckily, I get almost all the time in the world and I usually get to Just Say No to stuff like full flash sites etc.

[Aken]

Not true... Have you looked into Microformats

I looked into it a bit while enjoying the semantics article on the microformatique site. To be honest, it went a bit over my head when trying to understand its purpose. I'd have to do a bit more research to learn how it becomes a practical use to someone like myself. Feel free to PM me some information if you have something that might help explain it better, I'm always intrigued by new stuff.

But, I'm sure you understand that 9 out of 10 average web designers don't use microformats, and such classes would be pointless.

This discussion obviously outreaches the simple "should I use a class or not" debate, though. I'm a bit outside of my qualifications when it comes to perfect semantics or microformatting reasons, so I won't pretend to be 100% correct or an expert. But I still enjoy discussing.

[AlexDawson]

Same here, I work for an insurance company. They don't know what teh interwebz is, a sort of money tree I guess.

Stomme poes, didn't you know? The Interwebs are a get rich quick scheme

[Stomme poes]

Yes, they are.

When all of your competitors have the ability to let customers (and potential customers) get quick quotes online, or complete a policy purchase (I can't think of the English word for this, we call it "closing a policy"), and you don't, you're losing money.

So luckily several years ago my colleague convinced someone in the directie to have our scooter stuff online, and it became a nice success, so now teh interwebs is a permanent part of our business. Not always done correctly, but still, we're online. I suspect it's similar for many smaller companies who aren't technical companies, but need an online presence more than just "a website" but something that does stuff. Stuff with forms and products etc.

[Alex]

Yes, they are.

When all of your competitors have the ability to let customers (and potential customers) get quick quotes online, or complete a policy purchase (I can't think of the English word for this, we call it "closing a policy"), and you don't, you're losing money.

So luckily several years ago my colleague convinced someone in the directie to have our scooter stuff online, and it became a nice success, so now teh interwebs is a permanent part of our business. Not always done correctly, but still, we're online. I suspect it's similar for many smaller companies who aren't technical companies, but need an online presence more than just "a website" but something that does stuff. Stuff with forms and products etc.

Indeed you're absolutely correct. Those jobs don't make for very rewarding ones sometimes, though.

Alex

[Stomme poes]

Yeah, my zealotry makes one of my colleague try to "work from home" as often as possible... cause if he needs a quick fix, the <center> tags start appearing... immensely frustrating. Actually worse than bosses wanting something that doesn't actually make sense... they seem to listen pretty well, or their satisfied with not having the flashiest sites around, or something like that.