SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 76 to 99 of 99
  1. #76
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tuxus View Post
    Alex, since I don't feel the need to type an essay that has already been typed please read http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/prog.html.
    Nice article, but like I said... I never said it WAS a programming language, I simply said that it is (what I referred to as) pseudo-programming (to a point). By this I meant that despite its differences and relationships with programming, I just feel it should be grouped under the job description for backend-programmers rather than front-end designers, especially when languages such as PHP and JavaScript can be so easily integrated to make use of this mark-up.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Addict tuxus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    254
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I just wanted to make sure we were on a similar page so to speak. I feel it depends on the project and the team as to who does the html/css. It's nice to have a designer whom can do css and has a grasp of the backend language your working with (just knowing syntax will do) as it can take some load off the developer or developers on large projects as he/she writes classes for other parts of the site etc. I don't feel job descriptions really fit this sector to be totally honest. I have a CS degree, I worked at a hardware manufacturer writing drivers than moved to a open source software development and support company, from there I went into security consulting, after that I pretty much made my little side business of what I'll call "web presence creation and modification" into more of a full time job. If theirs going to be a job description applied to those whom have a broad range of experience it's going to need to be on a per person basis as we've seen from this thread that it's hard to nail down just who does what, it's never clear cut.
    Last edited by tuxus; Mar 1, 2009 at 01:32.

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,037
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexDawson View Post
    Nice article, but like I said... I never said it WAS a programming language, I simply said that it is (what I referred to as) pseudo-programming (to a point). By this I meant that despite its differences and relationships with programming, I just feel it should be grouped under the job description for backend-programmers rather than front-end designers, especially when languages such as PHP and JavaScript can be so easily integrated to make use of this mark-up.
    Alex,
    Doesn't it make more sense to group html/css under front end developer rather than back end? I mean that's what they are working on... The client side, the UI or AKA, the front end. Back end is usually reserved for server side programming.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  4. #79
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Alex,
    Doesn't it make more sense to group html/css under front end developer rather than back end? I mean that's what they are working on... The client side, the UI or AKA, the front end. Back end is usually reserved for server side programming.
    I agree with tuxus, html/css really does fall into the "grey" area... It is useful for a designer to be aware of HTML and CSS if not for any reason other than knowing the limitations of designing for the web however when it comes down to producing the HTML and CSS, I do feel that it should be a case where the developer should be the ones to step in and produce the end code (please note that I am all for designers producing “mock-up’s” of design through HTML/CSS to help out developers).

    My reasoning for this is that designers whom spend their time within Photoshop or are only interested in the design / end result aspects of HTML/CSS become confused by browser quirks, but my main reason for developers being the primary source for coding mark-up is due to the fact that it is those back-end developers who are going to be writing the JavaScript (which may require special "hooks" within the mark-up to manipulate certain components) and serverside languages such as PHP (which will need to be embedded within the document flow and therefore need to retain semantic awareness of parent elements) and no-one will ever understand the mark-up requirement of an interactive website as the person whom codes the behavioural elements.

    The problem with defining job roles is exactly how tuxus put it across.

    I don't feel job descriptions really fit this sector to be totally honest
    Web Design and Development has become both an art and a science with many "micro-sectors" which all overlap each other. For instance there are typography professionals whom will be experienced also in Psychology of color. There will be usability specialists whom have knowledge of UX design. There are so many different "roles" in the field of web development and design it is no longer possible to be an expert in everything. The best we can do is get communication between all members of the team (specialists and those whose skills fall in between the lines) and distribute the share of work as reasonably as possible.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,037
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think we're on the same page about the process Alex but I always get a bit weary of referring to something like html/css as backend coding. I feel that it does discredit the front end coder somewhat because it doesn't really address to the front end development process (but that's just my opinion). If I write up a web proposal and there is some sort of dynamic backend involved, I generally provide descriptions for front end development and back end development in the proposal.

    I am of the opinion that you have the designer who may also be the information architect organizing the flow of information and processes. Then once the design is achieved, a developer of some sort steps in and creates some master files for basic page layout (html/xhtml) and structure (css). This developer may then take the next step and start writting code for the back end or... They could hand it off to a back end developer who does the business logic. In any case there is a divide between front and back end development.

    Off Topic:


    I also cringe when a client refers to me as a web master when I do very little in the way of administering the servers of their website and everything to do with the databases, code and business logic.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  6. #81
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    While I agree that the designer may well take on an information architect position and take into account the natural flow of a document when choosing how best to lay out the information, I must disagree with the part of your post where you referred to CSS in terms of structure. HTML itself is the structural mark-up language because it (alike to a human bone structure) connects all of the elements together in a meaningful way. While CSS can affect the visual layout of a document, its purpose is simply for style and does not affect the structural position of elements in the document flow. (I know it’s slightly picky but I just wanted to emphasise the difference between structure (HTML) and style (CSS) for anyone else reading the thread who might get confused).

    PS: In reference to clients referring to you as a web master, I do agree that even a backend programmer should not be classed as a web master as that specific title is alone for those whom are involved directly in the setting up and maintaining of servers, server software and the setting up of hosting accounts and domain control. Of course we to some extent have control over our own (and our clients) websites, but it is one of the few related professions which rarely overlaps with designers and backend developers. In fact I would go as far to say that it is in itself a different industry altogether, like someone fixing PC's against someone fixing an OS (in terms of reinstalls and tune-ups).

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    10,287
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    I wasn't trying too hard to be obtuse, clearly HTML/CSS is "front-end" work, as is Javascript and Flash (or any of that other stuff plug-in wise), not back-end work (programming or not). It just gets a bit under my skin if the only options are "designer" and "developer" if "developer" only refers to the back end. Front end simply encompasses more than "design" (visual design, I should say).

  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,037
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    I wasn't trying too hard to be obtuse, clearly HTML/CSS is "front-end" work, as is Javascript and Flash (or any of that other stuff plug-in wise), not back-end work (programming or not). It just gets a bit under my skin if the only options are "designer" and "developer" if "developer" only refers to the back end. Front end simply encompasses more than "design" (visual design, I should say).
    Hence, the term front end developer

    Alex, CSS is structural as it can describe the placement of containers within a document. ie: I find it helpful to break up very complex layouts into several categories; boilerplate, structure, navigation, markup.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  9. #84
    Follow: @AlexDawsonUK silver trophybronze trophy AlexDawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England, UK
    Posts
    8,111
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Alex, CSS is structural as it can describe the placement of containers within a document. ie: I find it helpful to break up very complex layouts into several categories; boilerplate, structure, navigation, markup.
    Again, I am not sure I agree entirely, while I understand your point that CSS can describe sections of a website in its names. They are just that, names... they hold no structural value, they simply equate a relationship with that markup by applying a descriptive label which humans can understand and associate meaning too.

  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,037
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh man we're off topic but oh well

    We're probably getting lost in semantics. You're talking about document structure like a properly structured XML doc? I'm talking about layout/visual structure using CSS. If that's the case then of course CSS has nothing to do with document structure but if you're talking layout front-end visual structure...

    HTML (no tables) without css is nothing but a run-on list of hypertext and perhaps links. Even applying styles to html, body, paragraph and header tags can give the page some structure where you can seperate elements and naming containers (divs, spans, ul/ol, h1-h6, p, etc...) of course gives you absolute control. Markup is only a fraction of the CSS realm as is structure but how else would you structure a document if not with css.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  11. #86
    SitePoint Addict dnordstrom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    337
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Without reading any of the other replies (don't slap me for it):

    Development is development and design is design. My agency does them both. By development, I mean XHTML development, CMS integration, module building and that sort of cool stuff. Design is scribbling some boxes on paper, doing requirements and scenarios, making a Fw prototype or some pixel-pushing.

    There, I'm done repeating what a million people have probably already replied.
    Daniel Nordstrom. of. Nintera(ctive)
    -- Featured post: Part 2. Writing NI.JS JavaScript
    ----- Follow me on Twitter. Got project? Contact me.
    -------- SitePoint: Community GuidelinesBe A Great Member

  12. #87
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    455
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Web Design: How the sight looks
    Web Development: How the sight works.

  13. #88
    SitePoint Evangelist webchalkboard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Bristol, UK
    Posts
    494
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Unfortunately I haven't got all day to read the previous responses, but my immediate opinion is if you compare to house building:

    Web Design = Interior Design
    Web Development = Architect and builder

    The better everyone's understanding is of the other people they have to work with the better. I think anyone involved in the web building process (including project managers) need to have a basic understanding of what HTML is, what Server Side Scripting and Client Side Scripting is, and what a database is and for. Beyond that you can leave the really technical stuff to the techies.
    Websites for Sale - Sell websites in a purpose built marketplace
    Then do some Shopping

  14. #89
    Django Jedi neron-fx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Bristol/Bath, UK
    Posts
    274
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ahhh, not this old chestnut again!
    Neron-Fx
    Everytime a user opens Internet Explorer, a web developer dies...
    http://www.savethedevelopers.org/

  15. #90
    Non-Member adstiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by neron-fx View Post
    ahhh, not this old chestnut again!
    what do you mean to say?

  16. #91
    SitePoint Zealot planewalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Somewhere witty
    Posts
    124
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When people ask what my job is, I say "Web Developer"...

    What do I do?

    I create the design, then break it up (CSS/HTML), apply php where I can (I am not a programmer) and integrate our CMS (again, I'm not a programmer, but I can manipulate the DB as needed and am familiar with the code of our CMS).

    I started out only doing designs (1999) but moved into the other areas as time went on... Now, I find I enjoy production (as we refer to it - the CSS/HTML aspect) the most and my designs (for some time now) have taken into consideration the production phase and restrictions that go along with it.

    At our company, I'm the only one doing the tasks listed above. We have a few programmers and a project manager - and that's our web team.

    So... can I call myself a "Web Developer"?
    witty comment here...

  17. #92
    SitePoint Addict antirem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    292
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You will need to know how to add/delete/move database as a CMS web designer/developer.

    You wont have to dork out on why things work.. but its good to know anyways

  18. #93
    SitePoint Addict tuxus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    254
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by antirem View Post
    You will need to know how to add/delete/move database as a CMS web designer/developer.

    You wont have to dork out on why things work.. but its good to know anyways
    Unless you want to do real custom work and then knowing how the CMS in question works will be needed.

  19. #94
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    971
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you want to be a designer, I would recommend getting really good at css and HTML and stopping there.

    There is a danger in spreading yourself to thin. Jack of all trades master of none.

    You can work with Web developers to build the back end of the site. All the designers I work with have me do the HTML as well.

    I think in the end, you'll get more work if you're good at what you do, and produce high end work. Rather than being able to produce a poor quality product yourself.

  20. #95
    Non-Member adstiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by planewalker View Post
    When people ask what my job is, I say "Web Developer"...

    What do I do?

    I create the design, then break it up (CSS/HTML), apply php where I can (I am not a programmer) and integrate our CMS (again, I'm not a programmer, but I can manipulate the DB as needed and am familiar with the code of our CMS).

    I started out only doing designs (1999) but moved into the other areas as time went on... Now, I find I enjoy production (as we refer to it - the CSS/HTML aspect) the most and my designs (for some time now) have taken into consideration the production phase and restrictions that go along with it.

    At our company, I'm the only one doing the tasks listed above. We have a few programmers and a project manager - and that's our web team.

    So... can I call myself a "Web Developer"?
    You are a web developer according to me.

  21. #96
    SitePoint Evangelist jonbey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    508
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by webchalkboard View Post
    Unfortunately I haven't got all day to read the previous responses, but my immediate opinion is if you compare to house building:
    Web Design = Interior Design
    Web Development = Architect and builder
    Hey, that's what I said in post 53.

    dnordstrom sums it up well - Designers design, developers develop.

    I guess if we wanted to be really pedantic, then no sole trader/self employed/freelancer can call themselves a "web designer". However, that is what our customers like to call us, so be it.

    To add to it further - there must be levels of development. I could call myself a designer, developer, usability consultant, SEO advisor, database manager, hosting consultant and domain name / branding expert. However, I am not great at any of these - more a jack of all trades (master of none). To an expert in any of these fields I am probably seen as an amateur, but to the average small business / trader / bloke up the road who needs a website, I am an expert in all.

    Definitions just cloud reality.
    Last edited by jonbey; Mar 7, 2009 at 17:50. Reason: fancied a bit more of a ramble
    My site: My Extension

  22. #97
    Non-Member adstiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    True, Designers Design and Developers Develop

  23. #98
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am going through this exact situation. I am primarily a visual person and have a BFA in photography, but also enjoy technical things and have been trying to learn web design in order to get a job doing it.

    Currently, I am becoming quite comfortable with HTML and CSS, and would prefer to concentrate purely on those (like many designers I would imagine) along with usability and SEO. I would be ok with learning basic Javascript and Actionscript as well if necessary. But, every job posting I see seems to list PHP, MYSQL and other programming in addition to "superb design skills" and mastery of every graphics program known to man. Who are these people getting these jobs? Are these job ads realistic? In my experience, no such creature exists as I tend to agree with those who say that people usually lean either toward the visual or the technical (leaning, by definition is directional).

    It seems mostly to be about separating yourself from the crowd. So, I have decided to concentrate on HTML/CSS until I know it inside and out. I am also going to formally study usability and information architecture (as best I can on my own) as I think this is good knowledge that many other designers ignore and it can really take a design to the next level. And finally, I feel SEO is a very interesting skill to have on a resume. It adds a bit of hard business value to an otherwise arty endeavor. And...I will reluctantly order basic Javascript, CMS and Flash books if the above qualifications do not get me hired. But I am NOT a programmer, so I'll just have to accept the consequences of that limitation.

    In short, I want to study and practice web design, raising it to an art form in terms of visual excellence, elegant HTML/CSS code, supreme architectural function and findability on the major search engines. Would this not be enough to get hired?

  24. #99
    Non-Member adstiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    348
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^You will get a job definately.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •