Why are so many sites using gray text?

[cydewaze]

On my personal site, I have a black background, and at first I used white text. I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas (I would actually "see" the faint images of the text for a minute or so after reading the page) so I finally switched to a light grey text and it was a LOT better. For me. YMMV, which is why I allow the user to switch style sheets and offer a higher contrast choice.

The problem with designing for "everyone" is that everyone likes something different.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Well it seems interesting to me that "MrMr" seems to be the only one citing any actual evidence. Everyone else seems to rely on the subjective "it looks better to me" approach, but do they only design pages for their sole use?

I have a fairly new 22" lcd monitor. The cheapest newsprint exceeds it in quality by far. I notice that newspapers tend to use black on white. If they need it for newsprint why would we not need it for monitors?

[Stormrider]

The whole topic is subjective here, there is no evidence. Any evidence will also be based on people's opinions. I find it interesting that the majority of people here think that there is nothing wrong with it - I'd say that counts as a survey, and evidence for using it :P

[bulletproofpoet]

I have a fairly new 22" lcd monitor. The cheapest newsprint exceeds it in quality by far. I notice that newspapers tend to use black on white.

None of the newspapers that I read are printed on pure white paper. Most use pulp which, by the time it gets to me, is definitely an off-white colour.

I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text on a white background easier on the eye than the "maximum contrast" option of black on white.

Just my thoughts.

Rich

[awasson]

Well it seems interesting to me that "MrMr" seems to be the only one citing any actual evidence. Everyone else seems to rely on the subjective "it looks better to me" approach, but do they only design pages for their sole use?

I have a fairly new 22" lcd monitor. The cheapest newsprint exceeds it in quality by far. I notice that newspapers tend to use black on white. If they need it for newsprint why would we not need it for monitors?

Evidence?? I would say MrMr proports to have evidence but I have yet to see any that is backed up by science.

As mentioned earlier newsprint isn't white so there goes that theory however the reason you can take a shiny white piece of bond and slap black text on it via a printer for a high contrast good read is due to the fact that paper doesn't contain a light source. White on a monitor is caused by your eyes being bombarded by light. It is more evident with a CRT because the light source is stronger than the backlighting of an LCD but none the less you can light up a dark room with an LCD showing a white background... Try that with paper

I read studies about white/black contrast problems more than ten years ago and have always used a #333 or darker text on white or a #F7F for my white. I'm with Stormrider on this topic... There seems to be much ado about nothing.

[ldcdc]

If you use a dark enough gray, the contrast can definitely be more than sufficient. I don't see how "gray" can be inherently bad, or pure black can be definitely good.

[Dr John]

I just measured the contrast ratio for the standard greyish text in a post here, and it's 13.29:1, exceeding the minimum recommended 10:1 for level 3 accessibility.

For a quoted block of text here, it's 12.72:1, again exceeding the minimum.

This box I'm editing the text in is 18.66:1 and thus totally acceptable.

I also experimented on a site I'm working on just out of interest, and found that by changing the text to #333 (before I measured it here) on the existing background of #F6F6F6 gave a 12.33:1 result. It also enabled me to set h2 and h3 to #111 or #000, so they stand out, looking bold but without the thicker (and less readable) characters of a font set at bold.

So all in all, I don't see (sic!) anything wrong with a little bit of grey here and there.

The artistically-designed type of pages with very similar shades of grey on grey are a different matter of course. I was recently on a site and it was only after several minutes that I realised there was a "cleverly", subtly coloured grey on grey sub-menu below the main menu! Now that is BAD accessibility!

[awasson]

I just measured the contrast ratio for the standard greyish text in a post here, and it's 13.29:1, exceeding the minimum recommended 10:1 for level 3 accessibility.

For a quoted block of text here, it's 12.72:1, again exceeding the minimum.

This box I'm editing the text in is 18.66:1 and thus totally acceptable.

I also experimented on a site I'm working on just out of interest, and found that by changing the text to #333 (before I measured it here) on the existing background of #F6F6F6 gave a 12.33:1 result. It also enabled me to set h2 and h3 to #111 or #000, so they stand out, looking bold but without the thicker (and less readable) characters of a font set at bold.

So all in all, I don't see (sic!) anything wrong with a little bit of grey here and there.

Nice... I particularly like the idea of varying the contrast to make h2, h3 stand out without thick bolding.

[ro0bear]

Black black black
Gray gray gray

^until doing that test, i didnt even realise the writing on this page was gray, do you have a problem reading this MrMr?

I find it very difficult to tell the difference when its not bold:

Black black black
Gray gray gray

but I have seen sites where the gray on white is something like this:

Gray gray gray

I can definately see this being a problem!

[Fre420]

Black black black
Gray gray gray

^until doing that test, i didnt even realise the writing on this page was gray, do you have a problem reading this MrMr?

I find it very difficult to tell the difference when its not bold:

Black black black
Gray gray gray

but I have seen sites where the gray on white is something like this:

Gray gray gray

I can definately see this being a problem!

your test isn't valuable, because the eye fools us with the surroundings of the text. Because you put #222 color beneath #000 color you will see the difference more.

if you do more spacing it will become less obvious

Another thing is the characters themselves, less of your space filled with characters is a big difference. So make the text the same





Black black black








Black Black Black






you see, even less visual difference

[awasson]

^ Actually shouldn't that be done unbolded for less visual difference between the two?

[ro0bear]

your test isn't valuable, because the eye fools us with the surroundings of the text. Because you put #222 color beneath #000 color you will see the difference more.

if you do more spacing it will become less obvious

Another thing is the characters themselves, less of your space filled with characters is a big difference. So make the text the same





Black black black








Black Black Black






you see, even less visual difference

I was just demonstrating how small the difference between the two are, although the gray is a little softer on the eye.
I bet some people veiwing this thread cant see any difference at all!

[awasson]

I was just demonstrating how small the difference between the two are, although the gray is a little softer on the eye.
I bet some people veiwing this thread cant see any difference at all!

True enough and it would probably be even less of an effect on a white background.

[Jack32]

MrMr, they are doing it just for a different look.

Period.

I do it with my site too, but I make sure it is just with headlines, and the text is much bigger, and, it is in Georgia font.

Gray, along with black, breaks up the monotony (same 'ol same 'ol) of a site, it gives it a bit of style.

Is this the answer you were looking for?

[Mr pseudonym]

What about gray text on a black background, which antagonates the heck out of me. Last week I told a vendor to just send me a printed catalog; their web site was just black with faint letterlike scratches. It was of course a very "designy" site.

What are these people thinking? Especially when they think they want to sell you their product....

MP

PS: And Sony, you can just fix your black-on-black Voxengo plug-ins, too.

[Shaun(OfTheDead)]

Is this really worth ranting about ?

If you don't like grey text in websites... don't use grey text in your website! It's as simple as that.

And if visiting a site hurts your eyes... don't visit that site. The end.

[MrMr]

MrMr, they are doing it just for a different look.

Period.

I do it with my site too, but I make sure it is just with headlines, and the text is much bigger, and, it is in Georgia font.

Gray, along with black, breaks up the monotony (same 'ol same 'ol) of a site, it gives it a bit of style.

Is this the answer you were looking for?

Well the majority of responders, in this thread, have claimed that it looks better. But not one of them cites their customers' or clients' feedback -- or better yet, a double-blind usability study.

So yes, this is answered to my satisfaction until actual scientific evidence is obtained.

[awasson]

Well the majority of responders, in this thread, have claimed that it looks better. But not one of them cites their customers' or clients' feedback -- or better yet, a double-blind usability study.

So yes, this is answered to my satisfaction until actual scientific evidence is obtained.

Actually the majority of responders cite a better visual experience for the visitor. This is not for some cool or trendy look it's for visibility hence usability.

[MrMr]

Actually the majority of responders cite a better visual experience for the visitor.

Not true, at all. What thread are you reading?

Here are all the quotes from the first page of this thread:

"is generally considered to be too high a contrast..."

"Personally, I just go with what looks 'right'..."

"ill adjust the contrast till it just looks easy on the eyes..."

"My site has a dark grey background colour..."

"For me, and as others have noted..."

"I haven't had any problems with contrast on sitepoint..."

"I find any shade of gray darker..."

"I agree on #333333 is perfectly readable..."

"I think grey text on white backgrounds is fine...."

"The reason dark grey is chosen over black as mentioned is because of to sharp..."

"I think that some people think that a clean-style means blending all colors..."

"That's what I think at least..."

"I find it perfectly fine,..."

"I agree with others that, against a white background..."

"I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas..."

"I find it interesting that the majority of people here..."

"I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text..."
~~~

Not ONE cited any opinion from users or any hard data.

Face it, this fad has no justification except in the minds of "designers".

[bmotive]

easy on the eyes that is all.....

[happyoink]

I have no problems at all reading various shades of grey text on a white background, and my vision is not 20/20. But imo, it's a subjective experience.

[awasson]

Perhaps we are at odds due to comprehension of the English language. I have commented beside each of the quotes you posted indicating whether they are for usability or stylistic taste. Half of your quotes are incomplete so it's hard to determine what they mean.

6 - Went with Usability
2 - Are clearly Style
9 - Are fragments that don't have enough text to determine.

Not true, at all. What thread are you reading?

Here are all the quotes from the first page of this thread:

"is generally considered to be too high a contrast..." Usability

"Personally, I just go with what looks 'right'..." Style

"ill adjust the contrast till it just looks easy on the eyes..." Could be either easy on the eyes indicates to me Usability.

"My site has a dark grey background colour..." N/A

"For me, and as others have noted..." Means nothing fragment

"I haven't had any problems with contrast on sitepoint..." N/A

"I find any shade of gray darker..." N/A

"I agree on #333333 is perfectly readable..." Readability indicates Usability

"I think grey text on white backgrounds is fine...." Could be either but I'll go with Style

"The reason dark grey is chosen over black as mentioned is because of to sharp..." Usability

"I think that some people think that a clean-style means blending all colors..." N/A

"That's what I think at least..." Opinion... About grey on white?

"I find it perfectly fine,..." Could be either but I'll go with Usability

"I agree with others that, against a white background..." Fragment.... what's the rest?

"I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas..." Usability

"I find it interesting that the majority of people here..." N/A Fragment.... what's the rest?

"I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text..." N/A
~~~

Not ONE cited any opinion from users or any hard data.

Face it, this fad has no justification except in the minds of "designers".

Well as noted the justification whether you like it or not, is for usability purposes... None of the above said "Gee, I just think it looks cool". Easy on the eyes isn't describing a guy/girl who just walked in the room. It's describing the text on the screen and how easy it is to read.

[Ed Seedhouse]

Even if you prove someone else's evidence is entirely wrong, that doesn't relieve you of the duty to base your own opinion on evidence, at least if you want to convince rational people that you are right.

[MrMr]

Perhaps we are at odds due to comprehension of the English language. I have commented beside each of the quotes you posted indicating whether they are for usability or stylistic taste. Half of your quotes are incomplete so it's hard to determine what they mean.

I agree. You also appear to have problems with logic, understanding of science, and staying on point.

As for the partial quotes, they are straight down the thread so there is no excuse but laziness or incompetence for not being able to easily see the full context.

Each quote was complete enough to prove the point I was making: That they are 100% opinion of the poster with no indication that users and customers were consulted.

[Lavinco]

There are just too many great minds around here. And when I say great minds, I mean "know-it-alls'.

Why do so many people at SP here go so far out of their way to prove another person wrong? Let's just all agree that it's okay to disagree and spend time on developing websites to the best of our abilities instead of this whole, my Dad can beat up your Dad attitude.