SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 206
  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy cydewaze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Merry Land, USA
    Posts
    1,096
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    On my personal site, I have a black background, and at first I used white text. I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas (I would actually "see" the faint images of the text for a minute or so after reading the page) so I finally switched to a light grey text and it was a LOT better. For me. YMMV, which is why I allow the user to switch style sheets and offer a higher contrast choice.

    The problem with designing for "everyone" is that everyone likes something different.

  2. #27
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well it seems interesting to me that "MrMr" seems to be the only one citing any actual evidence. Everyone else seems to rely on the subjective "it looks better to me" approach, but do they only design pages for their sole use?

    I have a fairly new 22" lcd monitor. The cheapest newsprint exceeds it in quality by far. I notice that newspapers tend to use black on white. If they need it for newsprint why would we not need it for monitors?
    Ed Seedhouse

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophybronze trophy Stormrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    3,133
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The whole topic is subjective here, there is no evidence. Any evidence will also be based on people's opinions. I find it interesting that the majority of people here think that there is nothing wrong with it - I'd say that counts as a survey, and evidence for using it :P

  4. #29
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse View Post
    I have a fairly new 22" lcd monitor. The cheapest newsprint exceeds it in quality by far. I notice that newspapers tend to use black on white.
    None of the newspapers that I read are printed on pure white paper. Most use pulp which, by the time it gets to me, is definitely an off-white colour.

    I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text on a white background easier on the eye than the "maximum contrast" option of black on white.

    Just my thoughts.

    Rich

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,030
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse View Post
    Well it seems interesting to me that "MrMr" seems to be the only one citing any actual evidence. Everyone else seems to rely on the subjective "it looks better to me" approach, but do they only design pages for their sole use?

    I have a fairly new 22" lcd monitor. The cheapest newsprint exceeds it in quality by far. I notice that newspapers tend to use black on white. If they need it for newsprint why would we not need it for monitors?
    Evidence?? I would say MrMr proports to have evidence but I have yet to see any that is backed up by science.

    As mentioned earlier newsprint isn't white so there goes that theory however the reason you can take a shiny white piece of bond and slap black text on it via a printer for a high contrast good read is due to the fact that paper doesn't contain a light source. White on a monitor is caused by your eyes being bombarded by light. It is more evident with a CRT because the light source is stronger than the backlighting of an LCD but none the less you can light up a dark room with an LCD showing a white background... Try that with paper

    I read studies about white/black contrast problems more than ten years ago and have always used a #333 or darker text on white or a #F7F for my white. I'm with Stormrider on this topic... There seems to be much ado about nothing.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy ldcdc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Ploiesti
    Posts
    4,475
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you use a dark enough gray, the contrast can definitely be more than sufficient. I don't see how "gray" can be inherently bad, or pure black can be definitely good.
    HostPeek.com - budget hosts, compared
    CouponsNexus.com - web hosting coupons

    Ultra Cheap Hosts | Web Hosting Reviews Forums

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Kent
    Posts
    1,921
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I just measured the contrast ratio for the standard greyish text in a post here, and it's 13.29:1, exceeding the minimum recommended 10:1 for level 3 accessibility.

    For a quoted block of text here, it's 12.72:1, again exceeding the minimum.

    This box I'm editing the text in is 18.66:1 and thus totally acceptable.

    I also experimented on a site I'm working on just out of interest, and found that by changing the text to #333 (before I measured it here) on the existing background of #F6F6F6 gave a 12.33:1 result. It also enabled me to set h2 and h3 to #111 or #000, so they stand out, looking bold but without the thicker (and less readable) characters of a font set at bold.

    So all in all, I don't see (sic!) anything wrong with a little bit of grey here and there.

    The artistically-designed type of pages with very similar shades of grey on grey are a different matter of course. I was recently on a site and it was only after several minutes that I realised there was a "cleverly", subtly coloured grey on grey sub-menu below the main menu! Now that is BAD accessibility!

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,030
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr John View Post
    I just measured the contrast ratio for the standard greyish text in a post here, and it's 13.29:1, exceeding the minimum recommended 10:1 for level 3 accessibility.

    For a quoted block of text here, it's 12.72:1, again exceeding the minimum.

    This box I'm editing the text in is 18.66:1 and thus totally acceptable.

    I also experimented on a site I'm working on just out of interest, and found that by changing the text to #333 (before I measured it here) on the existing background of #F6F6F6 gave a 12.33:1 result. It also enabled me to set h2 and h3 to #111 or #000, so they stand out, looking bold but without the thicker (and less readable) characters of a font set at bold.

    So all in all, I don't see (sic!) anything wrong with a little bit of grey here and there.
    Nice... I particularly like the idea of varying the contrast to make h2, h3 stand out without thick bolding.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  9. #34
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Black black black
    Gray gray gray

    ^until doing that test, i didnt even realise the writing on this page was gray, do you have a problem reading this MrMr?

    I find it very difficult to tell the difference when its not bold:

    Black black black
    Gray gray gray

    but I have seen sites where the gray on white is something like this:

    Gray gray gray

    I can definately see this being a problem!

  10. #35
    SitePoint Addict Fre420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Leuven, Belgium
    Posts
    211
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ro0bear View Post
    Black black black
    Gray gray gray

    ^until doing that test, i didnt even realise the writing on this page was gray, do you have a problem reading this MrMr?

    I find it very difficult to tell the difference when its not bold:

    Black black black
    Gray gray gray

    but I have seen sites where the gray on white is something like this:

    Gray gray gray

    I can definately see this being a problem!
    your test isn't valuable, because the eye fools us with the surroundings of the text. Because you put #222 color beneath #000 color you will see the difference more.

    if you do more spacing it will become less obvious

    Another thing is the characters themselves, less of your space filled with characters is a big difference. So make the text the same





    Black black black








    Black Black Black






    you see, even less visual difference

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,030
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^ Actually shouldn't that be done unbolded for less visual difference between the two?
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  12. #37
    Non-Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    622
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fre420 View Post
    your test isn't valuable, because the eye fools us with the surroundings of the text. Because you put #222 color beneath #000 color you will see the difference more.

    if you do more spacing it will become less obvious

    Another thing is the characters themselves, less of your space filled with characters is a big difference. So make the text the same





    Black black black








    Black Black Black






    you see, even less visual difference
    I was just demonstrating how small the difference between the two are, although the gray is a little softer on the eye.
    I bet some people veiwing this thread cant see any difference at all!

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,030
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ro0bear View Post
    I was just demonstrating how small the difference between the two are, although the gray is a little softer on the eye.
    I bet some people veiwing this thread cant see any difference at all!
    True enough and it would probably be even less of an effect on a white background.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  14. #39
    SitePoint Evangelist
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    506
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    MrMr, they are doing it just for a different look.

    Period.

    I do it with my site too, but I make sure it is just with headlines, and the text is much bigger, and, it is in Georgia font.

    Gray, along with black, breaks up the monotony (same 'ol same 'ol) of a site, it gives it a bit of style.

    Is this the answer you were looking for?

  15. #40
    SitePoint Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    86
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What about gray text on a black background, which antagonates the heck out of me. Last week I told a vendor to just send me a printed catalog; their web site was just black with faint letterlike scratches. It was of course a very "designy" site.

    What are these people thinking? Especially when they think they want to sell you their product....

    MP

    PS: And Sony, you can just fix your black-on-black Voxengo plug-ins, too.

  16. #41
    Keep Moving Forward gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
    Shaun(OfTheDead)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Trinidad
    Posts
    3,746
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Is this really worth ranting about ?

    If you don't like grey text in websites... don't use grey text in your website! It's as simple as that.

    And if visiting a site hurts your eyes... don't visit that site. The end.




    Trying to fill the unforgiving minute
    with sixty seconds' worth of distance run.

    Update on Sitepoint's Migration to Discourse

  17. #42
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack32 View Post
    MrMr, they are doing it just for a different look.

    Period.

    I do it with my site too, but I make sure it is just with headlines, and the text is much bigger, and, it is in Georgia font.

    Gray, along with black, breaks up the monotony (same 'ol same 'ol) of a site, it gives it a bit of style.

    Is this the answer you were looking for?

    Well the majority of responders, in this thread, have claimed that it looks better. But not one of them cites their customers' or clients' feedback -- or better yet, a double-blind usability study.

    So yes, this is answered to my satisfaction until actual scientific evidence is obtained.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,030
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMr View Post
    Well the majority of responders, in this thread, have claimed that it looks better. But not one of them cites their customers' or clients' feedback -- or better yet, a double-blind usability study.

    So yes, this is answered to my satisfaction until actual scientific evidence is obtained.
    Actually the majority of responders cite a better visual experience for the visitor. This is not for some cool or trendy look it's for visibility hence usability.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  19. #44
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Actually the majority of responders cite a better visual experience for the visitor.
    Not true, at all. What thread are you reading?

    Here are all the quotes from the first page of this thread:

    "is generally considered to be too high a contrast..."

    "Personally, I just go with what looks 'right'..."

    "ill adjust the contrast till it just looks easy on the eyes..."

    "My site has a dark grey background colour..."

    "For me, and as others have noted..."

    "I haven't had any problems with contrast on sitepoint..."

    "I find any shade of gray darker..."

    "I agree on #333333 is perfectly readable..."

    "I think grey text on white backgrounds is fine...."

    "The reason dark grey is chosen over black as mentioned is because of to sharp..."

    "I think that some people think that a clean-style means blending all colors..."

    "That's what I think at least..."

    "I find it perfectly fine,..."

    "I agree with others that, against a white background..."

    "I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas..."

    "I find it interesting that the majority of people here..."

    "I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text..."
    ~~~

    Not ONE cited any opinion from users or any hard data.

    Face it, this fad has no justification except in the minds of "designers".

  20. #45
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    san diego
    Posts
    16
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    easy on the eyes that is all.....
    Brendan J. Smith | CEO and Founder
    MotiveInteractive.com | Motive CPA Network
    brendan@motiveinteractive.com
    http://twitter.com/brendansmith

  21. #46
    SitePoint Evangelist happyoink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    503
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have no problems at all reading various shades of grey text on a white background, and my vision is not 20/20. But imo, it's a subjective experience.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Posts
    2,030
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Perhaps we are at odds due to comprehension of the English language. I have commented beside each of the quotes you posted indicating whether they are for usability or stylistic taste. Half of your quotes are incomplete so it's hard to determine what they mean.

    6 - Went with Usability
    2 - Are clearly Style
    9 - Are fragments that don't have enough text to determine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMr View Post
    Not true, at all. What thread are you reading?

    Here are all the quotes from the first page of this thread:
    "is generally considered to be too high a contrast..." Usability

    "Personally, I just go with what looks 'right'..." Style

    "ill adjust the contrast till it just looks easy on the eyes..." Could be either easy on the eyes indicates to me Usability.

    "My site has a dark grey background colour..." N/A

    "For me, and as others have noted..." Means nothing fragment

    "I haven't had any problems with contrast on sitepoint..." N/A

    "I find any shade of gray darker..." N/A

    "I agree on #333333 is perfectly readable..." Readability indicates Usability

    "I think grey text on white backgrounds is fine...." Could be either but I'll go with Style

    "The reason dark grey is chosen over black as mentioned is because of to sharp..." Usability

    "I think that some people think that a clean-style means blending all colors..." N/A

    "That's what I think at least..." Opinion... About grey on white?

    "I find it perfectly fine,..." Could be either but I'll go with Usability

    "I agree with others that, against a white background..." Fragment.... what's the rest?

    "I got sick of the letters burning into my retinas..." Usability

    "I find it interesting that the majority of people here..." N/A Fragment.... what's the rest?

    "I also find black text on an off-white background or grey text..." N/A
    ~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMr View Post
    Not ONE cited any opinion from users or any hard data.

    Face it, this fad has no justification except in the minds of "designers".

    Well as noted the justification whether you like it or not, is for usability purposes... None of the above said "Gee, I just think it looks cool". Easy on the eyes isn't describing a guy/girl who just walked in the room. It's describing the text on the screen and how easy it is to read.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
    Principal / Internet Development

  23. #48
    SitePoint Evangelist Ed Seedhouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Victoria, B.C. Canada
    Posts
    592
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Even if you prove someone else's evidence is entirely wrong, that doesn't relieve you of the duty to base your own opinion on evidence, at least if you want to convince rational people that you are right.
    Ed Seedhouse

  24. #49
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    18
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Perhaps we are at odds due to comprehension of the English language. I have commented beside each of the quotes you posted indicating whether they are for usability or stylistic taste. Half of your quotes are incomplete so it's hard to determine what they mean.
    I agree. You also appear to have problems with logic, understanding of science, and staying on point.

    As for the partial quotes, they are straight down the thread so there is no excuse but laziness or incompetence for not being able to easily see the full context.

    Each quote was complete enough to prove the point I was making: That they are 100% opinion of the poster with no indication that users and customers were consulted.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    West Michigan
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There are just too many great minds around here. And when I say great minds, I mean "know-it-alls'.

    Why do so many people at SP here go so far out of their way to prove another person wrong? Let's just all agree that it's okay to disagree and spend time on developing websites to the best of our abilities instead of this whole, my Dad can beat up your Dad attitude.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •