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  1. #26
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    It's the worlds biggest scam.

  2. #27
    I meant that to happen silver trophybronze trophy Raffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Utopian I would not call what I propose I do not accept as valid any kind of government
    That's what the anarchists say too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura
    But I do I am sure about this, because I base my judgment on a philosophy that is anchored in reason. This system I am talking about is pretty much the only direction left to go. All else has been tried and has failed.
    Yes, but you can't be so sure that what you're advocating will not try and fail either! It could be a complete catastrophe, as I'm predicting, simply because people are selfish and greedy, particularly in an overpopulated world where wealth is very unevenly distributed.

  3. #28
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Raffles, you cling to the clichés of failed policies and slogans that have become quite tired. I do not think that I can add any more to what I have said here without going into politics big time, so I will let stand what I have said in all my previous posts and not comment any further
    Ulrike
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  4. #29
    SitePoint Addict ruby-lang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
    It could be a complete catastrophe, as I'm predicting, simply because people are selfish and greedy, particularly in an overpopulated world where wealth is very unevenly distributed.
    I think that if people were actually as selfish as we fear sometimes, from a game theory standpoint, the society would have collapsed long ago.

    Unhappily, it doesn't take many greedy, selfish individuals -- maybe one in a thousand -- to turn utopia into chaos.

  5. #30
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    If you want to understand the current economic events, nothing explains it as well as the movie Zeitgeist:Addendum.

    You can watch it free at Google Video. Just search for Zeitgeist Addendum

  6. #31
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
    It could be a complete catastrophe, as I'm predicting, simply because people are selfish and greedy, particularly in an overpopulated world where wealth is very unevenly distributed.
    Quite funny you say that because that's exactly what's happening in the current utopian system. The system which assumes everyone to be honest enough for not to use their 'special' powers to their advantage and smart enough for not to make crucial mistakes when making decisions. The system that assumes god-like power in a group of selected people, in other words.

  7. #32
    I meant that to happen silver trophybronze trophy Raffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Raffles, you cling to the clichés of failed policies and slogans that have become quite tired. I do not think that I can add any more to what I have said here without going into politics big time, so I will let stand what I have said in all my previous posts and not comment any further
    I'm not saying the status quo is OK though, far from it, so I think it's unfair to say that I'm "clinging" to something that I agree doesn't work

    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon
    Quite funny you say that because that's exactly what's happening in the current utopian system. The system which assumes everyone to be honest enough for not to use their 'special' powers to their advantage and smart enough for not to make crucial mistakes when making decisions. The system that assumes god-like power in a group of selected people, in other words.
    But it isn't utopian at all. It doesn't work properly because these "special powers" are abused. I think it all boils down to a fundamental flaw in human nature (or perhaps in a lot of humans but not all).

  8. #33
    SitePoint Enthusiast mikejay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Utopian I would not call what I propose I do not accept as valid any kind of government (even as sensible as you try to make it out to be ) to interfere with the markets. This is a fundamental difference we have in our view on how the world should be.

    But I do I am sure about this, because I base my judgment on a philosophy that is anchored in reason. This system I am talking about is pretty much the only direction left to go. All else has been tried and has failed. Moderation of the systems that have been tried will not work either, they would slide right back to where we are today. I think that I will not see this in my life, but it is very possible that you will, unless we are forced back into the dark ages by the threats that we are facing right now in the international realm by the fundamental mystics.
    If we take government out of business, then there can be NO lobbying, no private or corporate influence on law or trade. Elections would have to be free of financial influence. A purely unregulated system means no corporate welfare and no opportunities for industries to influence legislation in their favor.

    When that happens, I'll buy into laissez-faire economics. Even then, though, blocs will form, monopolies will emerge, corruption and deceit will go unstopped, and we still won't have a competitive or fair system.

  9. #34
    SitePoint Enthusiast mikejay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    I understand that for some reason we're in recession and that we don't have as much money as we used to, and businesses are closing because they've lost all of their money, but why?

    To put it easily, where did all the money go? If the banks had $900 Billion for example where did this money go? Did it disappear or does someone else have it?

    I'm just wondering where money actually goes, because surely it didn't just disappear. If you have all your physical money is it worth any less?
    In the 1970s, developed economies, such as that in the United States, started importing a growing portion of what they consumed while producing less. In subsequent decades, that intensified, and jobs began going overseas or to Mexico.

    In short, we don't really manufacture much in the developed world anymore - not enough to sustain our economy, anyway. Even if you do get a manufacturing or farming job, you probably won't earn enough to support yourself, so there's little incentive to do such work. As a result, we've needed asset bubbles to jolt our economy.

    In the 1990s, we had the dot-com bubble, in which people were getting rich (on paper, anyway) because stock prices were not in line with reality. Companies that couldn't even show profits were hailed as, "the next big thing", encouraging greed and herd behavior ("wow...I'd better get into the market before I miss my chance") as stock prices soared. Everyone wanted in, driving prices up further. People felt rich just by looking at their 401K statements, so they felt little need to save, and spent like drunken sailors.

    In this decade, the same thing happened to real estate. It wasn't actually worth so much more, but lax lending standards created more demand. It got preposterous when the cost of owning became 2 or 3 times that of renting the same property. Still, the hyperinflation persisted, and pundits of all stripes waxed on about how "real estate values NEVER go down" (of course they do, and there's plenty of evidence of that if you take the time to look).

    If you throw cheap money at a commodity, then more people will rush in to buy that commodity. Those who sell it will, naturally, raise the price. People will notice the rapid appreciation and feel they're either going to miss their chance to own that commodity or that they're going to get rich if they jump in. Prices spike and people risk financial ruin rushing to buy that commodity despite not really being able to afford it. Reason and logic go the wayside.

    The current financial crisis, in short, has to do with the "phantom wealth" that disappeared when the real estate bubble popped. The bubble had to pop, because even if you start charging zero interest on loans and giving them to anyone will a pulse, eventually prices will still reach an unsustainable upper limit. When that occurs, investors will leave the market, causing prices to begin falling.

    The "experts" had to know that property taxes, insurance, and other ownership-related costs were bound to increase as real estate values spiked. I'm no economist, but I always knew those things would end this party.

    Once property values plateaued, property flippers / speculators tried to sell en masse. Some got out in time, many did not. That caused desperation selling, which begin driving prices lower. As the property market cooled, many jobs in finance and construction started disappearing. Since that was what was holding up our economy (remember, we don't really manufacture or farm much in the developed world anymore), people became unemployed and increasingly destitute. That's caused a downward spiral, exacerbated as more and more people can't pay their mortgages or simply refuse to (why continue making payments when you owe a lot more than something is worth?).

    So, the wealth simply "evaporated". Among the things that made this such a calamity is that Wall Street firms began encouraging home ownership so that they could buy up mortgages, package them into mutual-fund-like investments, and sell them to buyers all around the world. Even though it became increasingly likely that borrowers would run into trouble making their payments, investment firms didn't care. After all, those firms were selling those mortgages to other investors. It became "somebody else's problem".

    Not for long, though.

    Anyway, this is a great listen if you want to grasp the how, what, and why of the current financial meltdown:

    http://audio.thisamericanlife.org/pl...ustomproxy.php

  10. #35
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
    But it isn't utopian at all. It doesn't work properly because these "special powers" are abused. I think it all boils down to a fundamental flaw in human nature (or perhaps in a lot of humans but not all).
    Yes it is utopian, if it wasn't utopian it worked, but it doesn't. "Special powers" only exist in fairy tales, and should stay there.

    I don't think it is a flaw in human nature. That doesn't really make sense. You can say the traffic problems are due to a flaw in human nature because humans can't fly, or that starvation is due to us having to eat. This is the same idea as saying it is browser's flaw to show a website incorrectly. It's quite otherwise.

  11. #36
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon View Post
    I don't think it is a flaw in human nature.
    That is true. Humans act by choices, not by nature. Action is not inborn -- innate nature to make choices does not exist.
    Last edited by Datura; Jan 11, 2009 at 21:24.
    Ulrike
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  12. #37
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    And they predict that the worst is still to come end of January 2009 beginning February!

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    I'm just wondering where money actually goes, because surely it didn't just disappear. If you have all your physical money is it worth any less?
    Where the money goes is obvious; while the poor get poorer, the rich get richer. In other words, it was effectively stolen. And it isn't just oilmen and bankers. How do you think Bill Gates got all his money? It wasn't through hard work and innovation.

    Is our "physical money" worth less? As I understand, the value of the U.S. dollar has declined considerably in relation to other currencies. At the same time, the services we get from government have also declined. So, yes, our money is worth less.

    I'm just glad I bought a MacBook Pro while I had the money. I'd hate to get bogged down in the next depression with a Windows PC!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sterman View Post
    And they predict that the worst is still to come end of January 2009 beginning February!
    I certainly believe the worst is yet to come, though I wasn't aware that particular time frame was being singled out. Do you know why January-February is supposed to be so bad?

    I can tell you that the industry I work in is going down the toilet fast. Fortunately, I was rescued by some freak weather - heavy snow, followed by record floods, which have had me working over 20 hours some days. Coincidentally, all my overtime is supposed to end about the first week of February.

  15. #40
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    Business talks. Only the businessmen knew their trade. We are mere spectators. The best we can do is just do our thing and if possible read only "good news". Often times, the media are just too keen on detailing even to the extent of "wrecking our nerves" with the way the deliver the news.

  16. #41
    Non-Member Ted Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULTiMATE View Post
    I understand that for some reason we're in recession and that we don't have as much money as we used to, and businesses are closing because they've lost all of their money, but why?

    To put it easily, where did all the money go? If the banks had $900 Billion for example where did this money go? Did it disappear or does someone else have it?

    I'm just wondering where money actually goes, because surely it didn't just disappear. If you have all your physical money is it worth any less?
    I think my physical money is worth any less, the most money of banks become house or others.

  17. #42
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    I certainly believe the worst is yet to come, though I wasn't aware that particular time frame was being singled out. Do you know why January-February is supposed to be so bad?
    It is expected that the reccesion will be still severe till mid 2009 when you read financial websites. What makes the time period of end Jan beginning Feb interesting that could have a futher inpact on the world economy is that President Bush will be leaving office on 20 Jan 09, Israeli elections on 10 Feb 09 and the likely possibility of a new Middle East war on the horizon. Any new Middle East war will cause Stock Markets to plunge, producing a further economic crisis. If such a war spreads to include Iran; and the flow of Persian Gulf oil is interrupted, even temporarily, the financial crisis will be most severe. But that is just as they say hypothetically speaking! LOL
    “We make a living by what we do,
    but we make a life by what we give.” - Winston Churchill -

  18. #43
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    Suppose a company was going well. Its stock value were 1 Million dollars. It is not the cash in hand. Based on these stocks, the company does some expenditures. Now the stock values comes down to 1000 $ only. Company has already spent that money and it cannot come back. Now company has no option but to get bank corrupt.

    This depression period will over when all companies will fire all unwanted / high paid employees (no fault of employees off course) and the companies will start moving in right direction. I assume this is going to happen till September 2011.
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  19. #44
    SitePoint Enthusiast icebreaker's Avatar
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    The global financial crisis may end by mid 2010 according to some economic analysts.
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  20. #45
    SitePoint Enthusiast Alzbeta's Avatar
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    For some reason graft is a big factor why this financial crisis happening, resources should be divided equally but fortunately they are some people who wants to takes all of them, that a lots group people will be sharing what is left.


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