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View Poll Results: Should legal citizens be allowed to own guns?

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33. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, all guns are evil!

    4 12.12%
  • Only government agencies should own guns!

    6 18.18%
  • With strict regulation people can own guns

    8 24.24%
  • Doesn't really matter to me

    1 3.03%
  • Everyone that is NOT A CRIMINAL should own a gun

    14 42.42%
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  1. #76
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I have no fences in my backyard. I just put four little metalic pieces with a orange sign saying "private property - no trespassing".

    I guess this little boy, the neighbors behind, didn't see or did't read the sign when he came to get his football, that his older brother threw away, to high for him.

    Oh well, he was on my property. I just shoot him in the head. After all, I have the right to shoot somebody in my property if I feel attacked, as it was truly the case in my mind. After all he was in the bush. I really thought the person hidden in that bush was willing to hurt my family.


    What's wrong in the text above?
    It is the thinking of an irrational person.
    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    What would you do?

    1) I shoot and kill. Then I ask what's going on.
    2) I ask what's going on. Then I shoot and kill.
    3) I call the omnipotent government agents number:911
    4) None of the above
    1) I certainly would not shoot.
    2) I might ask what is going on. But it is pretty self evident.
    3) Why would I call the agent, I have evaluated the situation?
    4) None of the above.


    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Last night, I saw somebody in that bush, probably the same pervert that is attacking people in the neighborhood.
    I would not think that. Always assume innocence first. Then act. To be paranoid about situations is a very bad habit. A rational person thinks before acting.
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I agree. Plus, criminals will kill than rob, afraid of the victims intentions or victims gun whererabout. If not allow, criminals have no reason to kill because the victims is harmless, no matter what. Does this might reduce deaths, I guess so. Does this might increase easy robberies and little violence (with no death), I guess so as well...
    Have any statistics to back that up? Cause I seriously doubt that is the case.

  3. #78
    ✯✯✯ silver trophybronze trophy php_daemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I agree. Plus, criminals will kill than rob, afraid of the victims intentions or victims gun whererabout. If not allow, criminals have no reason to kill because the victims is harmless, no matter what. Does this might reduce deaths, I guess so. Does this might increase easy robberies and little violence (with no death), I guess so as well...
    You assume that he who doesn't abide by law will rely on others to abide by it and act accordingly. I don't think so. The criminal will shoot anyone in sight if he is ready to do that. And he will always assume everyone to have a gun regardless the law, he wouldn't take any risk. Law is irrelevant here as it is in any decision that a criminal makes.
    Saul

  4. #79
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Very interesting, guys. But way to rational here to have a good picture of this debate.
    So, I guess a good way to keep guns in rational people, not talking about outlaws who will do whatever it takes, will be the European way.
    -Go to your city hall for gun permit application.
    -City hall investigate any background and deny/allow
    -If allowed, go to your police officers shooting training warehouse.
    -Get your 6 months training using on-site guns, trained by police officers trainers.
    -Pass your shooting exams
    -Ask your gun permit at your city hall with your exam paperworks.
    -Buy your gun at the location indicated on your permit presenting your city hall permit.
    -Registered your guns number and amunition.
    -Enjoy your guns

    I guess it makes sense...

  5. #80
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Very interesting, guys. But way to rational here to have a good picture of this debate.
    So, I guess a good way to keep guns in rational people, not talking about outlaws who will do whatever it takes, will be the European way.
    -Go to your city hall for gun permit application.
    -City hall investigate any background and deny/allow
    -If allowed, go to your police officers shooting training warehouse.
    -Get your 6 months training using on-site guns, trained by police officers trainers.
    -Pass your shooting exams
    -Ask your gun permit at your city hall with your exam paperworks.
    -Buy your gun at the location indicated on your permit presenting your city hall permit.
    -Registered your guns number and amunition.
    -Enjoy your guns

    I guess it makes sense...
    Well that's just a bit silly (of the government that is)

    We have background checks in the US. In PA every time you buy a gun from dealer (or have to transfer a handgun from person to person via a dealer - 'long guns' are exempt) they do what's called a PICS check. It's a phone call to the state police db .. and they either approve the sale, deny it or put it into 'discovery' (which means you can't have the gun until they call back)

    To get a LTCF (license to carry firearms) you go through your county sheriff, they do a background check on you through the FBI and you have to have two character references.

    To get an FFL (federal firearms license) you have to go through the ATF with an extensive background check

    Finally to be able to buy a "Class 2" weapon (fully auto machine gun, short barreled rifle or suppressors) you have to be fingerprinted, approved by your local police chief or sheriff, submit all that to the ATF along with a $200 'stamp tax' (been the same fee since the 1920's BTW) and wait 6 months while they do an exhaustive background check ... and you have to do this each and every time you buy one of these items.

    So it's not like you just walk into a store and walk right out with a gun.

  6. #81
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Very interesting, guys. But way to rational here to have a good picture of this debate.
    So, I guess a good way to keep guns in rational people, not talking about outlaws who will do whatever it takes, will be the European way.
    -Go to your city hall for gun permit application.
    -City hall investigate any background and deny/allow
    -If allowed, go to your police officers shooting training warehouse.
    -Get your 6 months training using on-site guns, trained by police officers trainers.
    -Pass your shooting exams
    -Ask your gun permit at your city hall with your exam paperworks.
    -Buy your gun at the location indicated on your permit presenting your city hall permit.
    -Registered your guns number and amunition.
    -Enjoy your guns

    I guess it makes sense...
    I do not agree with this. Just take the possibility of the government trying to curb and eventually eliminating your personal freedom and with that the defense against it. You would be helpless in case you need to form a militia to fight for your rights as an individual. That is a very important part of gun ownership. It is the way in the US. It keeps the government and its over-bearing power in check.

    Europeans on the whole do not think the way the Americans do, they are thinking more of government being the big nanny and the institution to dole out rights. (I am by the way German, just living in the States)
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    I do not agree with this. Just take the possibility of the government trying to curb and eventually eliminating your personal freedom and with that the defense against it. You would be helpless in case you need to form a militia to fight for your rights as an individual. That is a very important part of gun ownership. It is the way in the US. It keeps the government and its over-bearing power in check.
    Yuppers and since no one commented (which means they didn't go look) this video tells the WHOLE story:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

    The last minute of the video adds to you're argument BIG TIME

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    (I am by the way German, just living in the States)
    Ach mein Gott!!, she's German too!

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    Even in states where carrying a weapon (like PA) is legal (with a license for concealed carry, none for open) the law states you MUST attempt to flee before firing upon your attacker. Only when you have no ability to flee are you then allowed to use your weapon ....
    That's not true in all states. Here in Florida, where we have the "Stand Your Ground" law, you are not required to attempt to flee.

    And of course, in states with a Castle Doctrine law, you're not required to flee when you're in your own home.

    For the record: I like guns. I own several, and I enjoy target shooting. I also have a carry permit, and carry regularly. None of my guns has ever shot a person, and owning guns has not transformed me from a non-violent person into a violent one.

  9. #84
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonjay View Post
    owning guns has not transformed me from a non-violent person into a violent one.
    Could this be the same for everybody?

  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonjay View Post
    That's not true in all states. Here in Florida, where we have the "Stand Your Ground" law, you are not required to attempt to flee.

    And of course, in states with a Castle Doctrine law, you're not required to flee when you're in your own home.
    Yes I do realize that it varies state to state, was just giving an example. We do not have a "Castle Doctrine" in PA but we are also not required to attempt to flee. Plain and simple, in PA, someone breaks in you have every right to defend yourself and that includes using deadly force.

  11. #86
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Very interesting, guys. But way to rational here to have a good picture of this debate.
    So, I guess a good way to keep guns in rational people, not talking about outlaws who will do whatever it takes, will be the European way.
    -Go to your city hall for gun permit application.
    -City hall investigate any background and deny/allow
    -If allowed, go to your police officers shooting training warehouse.
    -Get your 6 months training using on-site guns, trained by police officers trainers.
    -Pass your shooting exams
    -Ask your gun permit at your city hall with your exam paperworks.
    -Buy your gun at the location indicated on your permit presenting your city hall permit.
    -Registered your guns number and amunition.
    -Enjoy your guns

    I guess it makes sense...
    So now the government knows every person who has a firearm except for those that are holding them illegally. Where exactly is the sense in that? Do you realise where that could leave you?
    There are three kinds of men:
    The ones that learn by reading.
    The few who learn by observation.
    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  12. #87
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    Yuppers and since no one commented (which means they didn't go look) this video tells the WHOLE story:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

    The last minute of the video adds to you're argument BIG TIME
    Yes it does. The founding fathers were very wise, they never wanted to have an overreaching government again.

    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    Ach mein Gott!!, she's German too!
    hahaha
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

  13. #88
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Could this be the same for everybody?
    It applies to all rational people, even semi rational people.

    Irrationality should not be fought with irrationality, which is always the case if you give the authority over your actions away to the almighty powers that try to rule you.
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

  14. #89
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    There really isn't a good choice for me to pick.

    I believe citizens should be able to own guns. I would like to pick "Everyone that is NOT A CRIMINAL should own a gun" however I don't agree with it. There are a few people I would be scared to see holding a gun. Being in the military I have no issue with them and feel comfortable with them, however not everyone has experience with guns and some just don't feel comfortable around them. Those that don't feel comfortable or have little to no experience I think are more liable to have an accident when dealing with them.

    I had a friend who died when we were 15ish because a friend and him were playing "cops and robbers" with real guns and neither were experienced enough to know ALWAYS check if they are loaded when handling them at all. One of them was and its a tragic thing.

    I think owning guns are good for protection and sport. However if you own a gun I think everyone (reasonable age) in the household should feel comfortable with how to shoot a gun and how it (the one(s)) you own function.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Evangelist bals28mjk's Avatar
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    Not necessarily into the face, but the hand perhaps or the foot. I would first threaten him back of course, trying to avoid a shot. But if the guy insists, and if it turns out to be his face that gets the bullet, I would not be sorry.
    What if he was too quick and snatched while you weren't looking, would you chase and try shooting the hand or foot? The bum is just trying to feed himself and his bum family, he doesn't want harm you.

    Also, once I become president or ruler of the world Datura I'm going to make a small requirement of a self defense and firing class. I will also consider replacing bullets with strong tranquilizing darts so misfires and accidents won't cause lasting results like a shot to the face would.

  16. #91
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkecho View Post
    I would like to pick "Everyone that is NOT A CRIMINAL should own a gun" however I don't agree with it.
    I actually screwed that choice up when I entered it. I meant it to say "Everyone that is NOT A CRIMINAL should be able to own a gun"

    My bad

  17. #92
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    What if he was too quick and snatched while you weren't looking, would you chase and try shooting the hand or foot? The bum is just trying to feed himself and his bum family, he doesn't want harm you.
    Again most people would in fact let them go and in MOST states you would have to by law. Using a gun is not a choice anyone has to make unless it is absolutely necessary in the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    Also, once I become president or ruler of the world Datura I'm going to make a small requirement of a self defense and firing class. I will also consider replacing bullets with strong tranquilizing darts so misfires and accidents won't cause lasting results like a shot to the face would.
    Well good thing there's no chance of you becoming president anytime soon! Legal gun owners would have darts while criminals would have bullets!

    That's a point I just don't understand why 'anti' gun people don't understand (ok that may have been the worst sentence I ever put together). They don't understand criminals could care less about the law, that's why they are called CRIMINALS. They could care less if every potentially dangerous thing was banned .. they would STILL get it illegally!

  18. #93
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    What if he was too quick and snatched while you weren't looking, would you chase and try shooting the hand or foot?
    Really, that would not happen. I am very alert at all times. I would not shoot a fleeing guy, the danger to my life is over at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    The bum is just trying to feed himself and his bum family, he doesn't want harm you.
    His action against me is an act of violence, no matter his motivation. This very act is intent to harm me, his interpretation does not make a bit of difference. Violence is violence. Theft is theft.
    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    Also, once I become president or ruler of the world Datura I'm going to make a small requirement of a self defense and firing class. I will also consider replacing bullets with strong tranquilizing darts so misfires and accidents won't cause lasting results like a shot to the face would.
    Your shot to the face is a strawman Mr.-want-to-be-ruler

    Truly, I would not mind the idea of having a tranquilizer gun. But the laws can be twisted so that a surviving attacker would then turn around and you, as the victim, will be violated again, this time by the courts who will find you the guilty party because you defended yourself against this bum who has a sob story of some kind to get the pity vote…
    Ulrike
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  19. #94
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobyme View Post
    So now the government knows every person who has a firearm except for those that are holding them illegally. Where exactly is the sense in that? Do you realise where that could leave you?
    That seems correct.
    It seems useful when an act has been done with firearms and when these firearms have been taken by authorities. It seems useful for the investigation.
    This could be used the same way with cars and VIN number i guess.

    It is important to mention that the freedom to have guns shouldn't be an issue here. I'd like to see what could have be done when a rational gun owner uses it as part of other liberties he was granted to have.
    IMO, there are quite a lot of action from rational gun owners that does not fit into everyday life...
    Now, I guess it will depend where we put the rationality line. That something discutable as well...

  20. #95
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    It is important to mention that the freedom to have guns shouldn't be an issue here. I'd like to see what could have be done when a rational gun owner uses it as part of other liberties he was granted to have.
    That presupposes that a right has to be given by authority. We, all humans, have a right to use whatever means we have to defend ourselves against any attack, may it be a criminal or a ruler/government.

    I do not quite understand your question
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

  21. #96
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Truly, I would not mind the idea of having a tranquilizer gun. But the laws can be twisted so that a surviving attacker would then turn around and you, as the victim, will be violated again, this time by the courts who will find you the guilty party because you defended yourself against this bum who has a sob story of some kind to get the pity vote…
    There is an EXCELLENT POINT that hasn't been touched on yet. When I first got my LTCF back in the 80s I talked to a few cops I knew and asked them all the 'what if' questions. I was told point blank by a PA State Police Officer "Don't wound them, Kill them" .. when I asked why he said 9 times out of 10 when someone wounds a criminal they usually have to go through years of litigation FROM THE CRIMINAL. Most often than not the litigation doesn't succeed BUT the costs just to defend yourself can bankrupt you.

    They have a saying in this state "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" ... Meaning if your life is threatened shoot and shoot to kill. There MAY be an investigation but your chances are better than dying.

  22. #97
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    That presupposes that a right has to be given by authority. We, all humans, have a right to use whatever means we have to defend ourselves against any attack, may it be a criminal or a ruler/government.

    I do not quite understand your question
    Oh no, it wasn't a question. I just wanted to point the line between what can be rational and irrational for a gun owner who uses his gun. But I guess we also have courts of law to debate these situations...

  23. #98
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    There is an EXCELLENT POINT that hasn't been touched on yet. When I first got my LTCF back in the 80s I talked to a few cops I knew and asked them all the 'what if' questions. I was told point blank by a PA State Police Officer "Don't wound them, Kill them" .. when I asked why he said 9 times out of 10 when someone wounds a criminal they usually have to go through years of litigation FROM THE CRIMINAL. Most often than not the litigation doesn't succeed BUT the costs just to defend yourself can bankrupt you.

    They have a saying in this state "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" ... Meaning if your life is threatened shoot and shoot to kill. There MAY be an investigation but your chances are better than dying.
    Great thread you started dc

    Yes, that is a very important consideration when you defend yourself. It is really a shame that the court system is being so abused with the help of inverted morality. And the power of this inversion is given through the sanctioning by the victims themselves. They support the mushy laws, they support the legislature that creates monsters, such as you mentioned dc, against them. Perhaps only through ignorance, perhaps from laziness to think, perhaps through discarding morality as inconsequential. Moral agnosticism has its victory and with that its toll, we pay for it.

    The willingness of the good to suffer at the hands of the evil is a self abasement, an abdication to serve ones highest value: life itself. There is no question in my mind that using a weapon in defense is moral and can not be denied by any pragmatism that seems a good solution to the people who like to control all things we do.
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

  24. #99
    SitePoint Evangelist bals28mjk's Avatar
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    Truly, I would not mind the idea of having a tranquilizer gun. But the laws can be twisted so that a surviving attacker would then turn around and you, as the victim, will be violated again, this time by the courts who will find you the guilty party because you defended yourself against this bum who has a sob story of some kind to get the pity vote…
    Assuming he was a rational bum, not a thug bum, I think he would understand why you darted him.

    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton
    Well good thing there's no chance of you becoming president anytime soon! Legal gun owners would have darts while criminals would have bullets!
    Well, one of the islands I own has a pretty decent navy, which is the better than the amount of countries you have, which is none.

    Point being I would have regular law abiding citizens with non-bullet guns to prevent accidents and have the law do what they want with the robbers. I would also encourage criminals to rob with the tranquility guns.

  25. #100
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I just wanted to point the line between what can be rational and irrational for a gun owner who uses his gun. But I guess we also have courts of law to debate these situations...
    That is the point of this discussion I would say most people who own a gun are very responsible in how they handle them. Only the press likes to fear monger, they are also on the side of the makers of laws that like to control us, and therefor it is in their interest to only report on things that fit their agenda.

    Courts and makers of laws are as corrupt or reasoned as the population itself. So I do not have great hopes for rationality to be the arbiter at this time.
    Ulrike
    TUTs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10


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