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View Poll Results: Should legal citizens be allowed to own guns?

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33. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, all guns are evil!

    4 12.12%
  • Only government agencies should own guns!

    6 18.18%
  • With strict regulation people can own guns

    8 24.24%
  • Doesn't really matter to me

    1 3.03%
  • Everyone that is NOT A CRIMINAL should own a gun

    14 42.42%
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  1. #51
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937 View Post
    bullsh1t

    the arsenal you showed on page 1 of this thread is ~WAY~ more than a single fire extinguisher, you have enough arms to start a major battle of significant size

    so that was lousy analogy

    you are a gun nut, full stop
    Maybe he expects a big fire?

  2. #52
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937 View Post
    bullsh1t

    the arsenal you showed on page 1 of this thread is ~WAY~ more than a single fire extinguisher, you have enough arms to start a major battle of significant size

    so that was lousy analogy

    you are a gun nut, full stop
    The 'arsenal' as you call it is part of my collection. Most are locked away and only taken out to go shooting, some have never been shot. Quite a few of those I consider investments, if you know anything about what happened in 1995 in the US (and more than likely what will happen this coming year) you would know several of those guns will more than likely double, if not triple in value. SO you see there IS more than one reason to own some guns

    And BTW, in that comment you quoted? I was talking about carrying a handgun.

  3. #53
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    good point about the investments

    in case it matters (and i know that the topic is supposed to be about guns, not law) as a non-american, i admire your 2nd amendment

    what bothers me is that people who like guns seem to feel the need to justify it with all sorts of reasons like self protection, civil rights, guns don't kill people, et cetera

    what's wrong with just liking guns?

    no i am not asking to be informed about what might be wrong -- it was a "theoretical" question

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  4. #54
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r937 View Post
    what's wrong with just liking guns?

    no i am not asking to be informed about what might be wrong -- it was a "theoretical" question

    First off I 'get' the rhetorical question

    BUT

    really there's nothing wrong with it and I will admit I like guns and love shooting them, as does my wife. Heck when the weather is better we go to the range twice a month just as a 'stress reliever' ... nothing like 30 rounds out of an AK-47 to puts your stress to bed! (they really are fun to shoot)

    The reason (IMO) most people tend to make justifications for it is probably because they are constantly being bombarded by those that tell them they shouldn't be allowed to own them and / or 'like' them.

    The real 'justification' here in this thread and usually the 'hot topic' of any argument is carrying weapons. That never fails to get 'both sides' hot an bothered. In PA right now the 'hot and bothered' topic is Open Carry, meaning you don't try to conceal your weapon. Some friends of mine run a group to educate people about the laws and the fact it is 100% legal in this state. Normally I refrain from the practice but once in a blue moon I have.


    BTW, I just wanted to mention how freaking proud I am of the people in this forum. That a subject like this CAN be discussed in a logical and open minded way .... WAY TO GO SITEPOINT!

  5. #55
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    So if you were carrying a loaf of bread home from the market, and a bum tried to snatch it from you, you'd want to shoot him in the face? Without hesitation?
    Not necessarily into the face, but the hand perhaps or the foot. I would first threaten him back of course, trying to avoid a shot. But if the guy insists, and if it turns out to be his face that gets the bullet, I would not be sorry.

    It is the unprincipled behavior of the thug, the total disregard of how money is earned to buy this loaf of bread or any other thing that would make me want to shoot him in defense of what is mine. He has by this very act of wanting to steal from me shown that he has no regards for my rights. A thug gets no mercy from me.

    In a home invasion I would shoot without question. Nobody has the right to just walk into my place. The intent of the intruder is very clear.

    In post #32 I delineated clearly how I think about this
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  6. #56
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    In a home invasion I would shoot without question. Nobody has the right to just walk into my place. The intent of the intruder is very clear.
    That's a given, no if ands or buts ... and unfortunately that type of crime is on the rise, even up here in the 'sleepy' Poconos. I'm pretty sure that and the entire rise in crime is a product of the struggling economic times, as things get tougher more and more people tend to get desperate.

  7. #57
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    That's a given, no if ands or buts ... and unfortunately that type of crime is on the rise, even up here in the 'sleepy' Poconos. I'm pretty sure that and the entire rise in crime is a product of the struggling economic times, as things get tougher more and more people tend to get desperate.
    I think the rise in crime has little to do with bad economic times. The cause I think goes much deeper than that. It is the corrupt way to look at life, the underlying philosophy being that of entitlement, no matter if you work for it or not. If your leaders think that way, why not you? It is a given now that the people who have what others want–only wish to have–are forced to share, and I might add: at the end of the gun (law). This theft is claimed as a virtue and an obligation to your fellow man, no matter how worthy or unworthy that man is.

    It is taught to all by almost all. It is no wonder that the thug, who does not bother to think, adapts this in his own little version and goes out and commits crimes. He feels entitled.

    Bad economic times might drive some people to steal, but they were barely restrained before. They are the same people who see nothing wrong with stealing cracked software, who steal music, who would not return a lost wallet. Bad times only enforce the basic values or non-values a person has. And yes, in times like these, it is good to have that little insurance of a defense weapon
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  8. #58
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton View Post
    A gun is nothing but a tool just like anything else, its the person behind it that may or may not be the problem.

    A gun is also a sporting 'tool', it is enjoyed by millions that love anything from target shooting to hunting and only one of those involves killing. Why do we have Olympic shooting teams etc?

    I own archery equipment too .. can you apply the same logic to that?
    Yes, same logic.
    You're right it's the person behind the tool.
    What I'm saying is even if you can break a skull with a hammer, therefore kill somebody, the idea of owning a hammer is to use it with nails at the first place.
    If I have a gun under my pillow at night, what would be the first idea of its use? Rabbit hunting? Target shooting? or maybe shooting an intruder coming inside my home at night? You tell me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Yes, that is the intended purpose of this tool, or at least inflict enough harm to incapacitate the attacker. A weapon to defend yourself against harm, harm that might come to you otherwise.

    We are not all equally nice and rational. Why would I let somebody harm me and not do all I can to stop this thug?

    Pleading would not do then, now would it?
    I agree. You should have the right to defend yourself. Then, let be all the people resonable enough to just use it for defense. Not to let it on the table in front of a son with his friends, not to let it on the chimney with bullets in, not to let it in teenager's hands, not to use it when your neighbors make too much noise that evening, etc...etc..etc...

    I stand by my verbage: Human beings are not responsible enough for a tools that is made only to hurt at the first place...

  9. #59
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    A
    In my book, when a person attacks you or tries to steal from you, they have forfeited their rights. I would use a gun against such people. I also would use a gun against a government and their agents at a point where they try to take all rights away from me. Human rights and property rights are indivisible. Man can not exist without either of them.
    Woaw...What about a government agent that "attack" you for a good reason that you do not know yet? Do you kill the dude first and ask what happens later?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest
    I stand by my verbage: Human beings are not responsible enough for a tools that is made only to hurt at the first place...
    Okay.

    So you're generalising that ALL humans are not responsible enough to own a tool to "hurt" ?




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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Woaw...What about a government agent that "attack" you for a good reason that you do not know yet? Do you kill the dude first and ask what happens later?
    That's not what she's talking about.

    This is what she's talking about.




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  12. #62
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I stand by my verbage: Human beings are not responsible enough for a tools that is made only to hurt at the first place...
    Speak for yourself please. You do not speak for a rational person here.

    A careless person who uses a gun on a whim because he is bothered by something, would, if he did not have a gun, use something else to hurt the person that bothers him. Irrationality is there without a gun or with a gun. He can make himself some homespun bombs to use instead of a gun.

    I find that the arguments to outlaw guns for all because of the thugs is really missing the point of making thugs more responsible. You can not "make" people think, and because of that injuries to innocent people will happen. But guns are not the only things that hurt people. Guns are used as a convenient and visible explanation why people act violently.

    Guns do not make a person violent, irrational emotions do. Guns are not violent, only if they are used by a violent person they are. Defense, a retaliatory act, is not violence
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  13. #63
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Woaw...What about a government agent that "attack" you for a good reason that you do not know yet? Do you kill the dude first and ask what happens later?
    What would you call a good reason?

    What makes you think a government is omnipotent or even should be?

    What makes you think some arm of the government can threaten me?
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  14. #64
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    Consider this.

    You make guns illegal.

    No one can legally own a gun.

    Do you think that the "thugs" go out and license their firearms ?

    Do you think the gang-bangers legally own their weapons ?

    By making it illegal to bear arms, you're effectivly disarming the law-abiding citizens, while those who will prey upon them retain their claws.




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  15. #65
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post


    This is what she's talking about.




    Thanks for posting this
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  16. #66
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    Okay.

    So you're generalising that ALL humans are not responsible enough to own a tool to "hurt" ?



    No. I just generalising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    That's not what she's talking about.

    This is what she's talking about.



    Thanks for posting this. I agree with the video. I even agree for "justice and freedom for all", something that we might have soon or later in the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Guns do not make a person violent, irrational emotions do. Guns are not violent, only if they are used by a violent person they are. Defense, a retaliatory act, is not violence
    I agree. If everybody own a gun when born, like a SSN, I truly believe that violence will be everywhere, everytime. Guns will be used for a no or for a yes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    What would you call a good reason?

    What makes you think a government is omnipotent?

    What makes you think some arm of the government can threaten me?
    Where did you see I think governemnt is onmipotent?

    Park on a hotel parking lot, waiting my wife, I sit in my blue truck reading a magazine. Concentrated in my reading, a police officer open the passenger door with his left hand, holding his gun in his right hand. No time to react, another one open my door and push me in the ground, putting handcuff.
    If I was fast, could I use my gun and kill them for invasion of private property?
    I didn't. I ask first what's going on and it's when a third one came and say: "He's not our guy, the plate doesn't match. Sorry for the inconvenience, have a nice day".

    A robbery had taken place 5-10 minutes earlier at the hotel and witnesses said he ran away in a blue truck!

    Can I just kill these police officers and go home free and clear?

    I'm a partisan of freedom, even for "guns for everyone". I just believe it's crazy to allow everyone to have a gun in hands...

  17. #67
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    I have no fences in my backyard. I just put four little metalic pieces with a orange sign saying "private property - no trespassing".

    I guess this little boy, the neighbors behind, didn't see or did't read the sign when he came to get his football, that his older brother threw away, to high for him.

    Oh well, he was on my property. I just shoot him in the head. After all, I have the right to shoot somebody in my property if I feel attacked, as it was truly the case in my mind. After all he was in the bush. I really thought the person hidden in that bush was willing to hurt my family.
    Last night, I saw somebody in that bush, probably the same pervert that is attacking people in the neighborhood.

    What's wrong in the text above?
    What would you do?

    1) I shoot and kill. Then I ask what's going on.
    2) I ask what's going on. Then I shoot and kill.
    3) I call the omnipotent government agents number:911
    4) None of the above

  18. #68
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    I think the whole no-no for legal guns is due to misunderstanding the idea whatsoever.

    By making something illegal you don't magically make it disappear from the surface of earth. But you do take it away from those who abide by law.

    Anyone who missuses a gun to harm someone does that against law and no law can stop them. They will use all tools possible to commit their crimes.

    Leaving the right to own a gun doesn't mean handing out free guns to everyone. It means the right to protect your own life as well as those of your close.

    The purpose of a gun is not to kill, but to protect life. And as such it's the most valuable tool you can have, because it protects the most valuable thing - life. Just as knife helps to serve you food, so does a gun to protect your life, and just because it's possible to misuse either it doesn't make them wrong.

    Knife is freely available to everyone, but you don't see everyone running around with knifes and killing each other. Nor you do where guns are legal. But crime is always there regardless.

    If you're not certain if they should be legal, think of what does it serve. Forbid guns and you help criminals by making their victims easier. Allow having guns and you make criminals wary about attacking someone whenever they wish to. Is it so hard to choose?
    Saul

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I have no fences in my backyard. I just put four little metalic pieces with a orange sign saying "private property - no trespassing".

    I guess this little boy, the neighbors behind, didn't see or did't read the sign when he came to get his football, that his older brother threw away, to high for him.

    Oh well, he was on my property. I just shoot him in the head. After all, I have the right to shoot somebody in my property if I feel attacked, as it was truly the case in my mind. After all he was in the bush. I really thought the person hidden in that bush was willing to hurt my family.
    Last night, I saw somebody in that bush, probably the same pervert that is attacking people in the neighborhood.

    What's wrong in the text above?
    What would you do?

    1) I shoot and kill. Then I ask what's going on.
    2) I ask what's going on. Then I shoot and kill.
    3) I call the omnipotent government agents number:911
    4) None of the above
    I wonder, what's all that to do with legally owning a gun. Just because you own one doesn't mean a license to kill and go around shooting everyone. That only means such person has mental problems.
    Saul

  20. #70
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post

    Where did you see I think governemnt is onmipotent?
    Here is a quote from you. It implies that government has omnipotence.
    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Woaw...What about a government agent that "attack" you for a good reason that you do not know yet? Do you kill the dude first and ask what happens later?
    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Park on a hotel parking lot, waiting my wife, I sit in my blue truck reading a magazine. Concentrated in my reading, a police officer open the passenger door with his left hand, holding his gun in his right hand. No time to react, another one open my door and push me in the ground, putting handcuff.
    If I was fast, could I use my gun and kill them for invasion of private property?
    I didn't. I ask first what's going on and it's when a third one came and say: "He's not our guy, the plate doesn't match. Sorry for the inconvenience, have a nice day".

    A robbery had taken place 5-10 minutes earlier at the hotel and witnesses said he ran away in a blue truck!

    Can I just kill these police officers and go home free and clear?
    No, I would not use the gun in that case. This is different from coming to your house and barging in. I would not shoot at an officer if he came to the door and ask to speak to me. If it was in the context of a political setup, I might. It depends on the political situation in the country

    Yes, the car is private property, but you are in a semi public place. It also is part of the price we pay for a justice system to protect us. Humans are fallible, police officers are humans. I have this thought of course all along, so I would not act on an impulse and shoot because I feel unjustly detained and handled. I would expect an apology, but no compensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I'm a partisan of freedom, even for "guns for everyone". I just believe it's crazy to allow everyone to have a gun in hands...
    There is not a single thing in life that has no danger to it. So you might as well give the innocent at least a way to defend themselves. I too do not like that thugs have guns and bombs. But they do. If you outlaw them they manufacture them themselves and there would be nothing you would have in your defense.
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  21. #71
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by php_daemon View Post
    If you're not certain if they should be legal, think of what does it serve. Forbid guns and you help criminals by making their victims easier. Allow having guns and you make criminals wary about attacking someone whenever they wish to. Is it so hard to choose?
    I agree. Plus, criminals will kill than rob, afraid of the victims intentions or victims gun whererabout. If not allow, criminals have no reason to kill because the victims is harmless, no matter what. Does this might reduce deaths, I guess so. Does this might increase easy robberies and little violence (with no death), I guess so as well...

  22. #72
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun(OfTheDead) View Post
    Consider this.

    You make guns illegal.

    No one can legally own a gun.

    Do you think that the "thugs" go out and license their firearms ?

    Do you think the gang-bangers legally own their weapons ?

    By making it illegal to bear arms, you're effectivly disarming the law-abiding citizens, while those who will prey upon them retain their claws.

    BINGO, we have a winner ..... this my friend is EXACTLY the point.

    I mentioned it before but maybe some missed it.

    Many drugs are illegal ... NO ONE can possess them except authorized people. Does that stop the drug trafficking? Nope!

    Think bag to the US prohibition on alcohol ... did it stop people that wanted to drink from drinking? Nope!

    You can make anything illegal but those that don't care about the law will still get whatever you make illegal if they really want it.

  23. #73
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    Every right comes with a responsibility.


    Classic example... you have a right (in some countries) to "Freedom of Speech".

    Does that mean it's okay for you to falsely yell, "OH MY GOD! FIRE!" inside a crowded theatre ?


    Of course not. Because if you set off a panic inside there, and people begin trampling each other to get to the doors, you'd be responsible for all those people who got hurt. And you're responsible for the money the theatre-owner lost. And responsible for all the people who didn't get to see the show they paid for.


    For every right and freedom you have, you also have a responsibility to use that right properly.


    A six-year old kid is not responsible enough yet to own a gun.

    Neither is the irrational person whom codythebest described up there.


    But it is a big mistake to generalise and drop a catch-all regulation which takes away the rights of individuals who are responsible enough.

    It'd be like you and your siblings getting grounded for a weekend because of something stupid that your older brother did.




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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    Park on a hotel parking lot, waiting my wife, I sit in my blue truck reading a magazine. Concentrated in my reading, a police officer open the passenger door with his left hand, holding his gun in his right hand. No time to react, another one open my door and push me in the ground, putting handcuff.
    If I was fast, could I use my gun and kill them for invasion of private property?
    I didn't. I ask first what's going on and it's when a third one came and say: "He's not our guy, the plate doesn't match. Sorry for the inconvenience, have a nice day".
    Nope, in fact you would be criminally negligent there. Even in states where carrying a weapon (like PA) is legal (with a license for concealed carry, none for open) the law states you MUST attempt to flee before firing upon your attacker. Only when you have no ability to flee are you then allowed to use your weapon ....

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I have no fences in my backyard. I just put four little metalic pieces with a orange sign saying "private property - no trespassing".

    I guess this little boy, the neighbors behind, didn't see or did't read the sign when he came to get his football, that his older brother threw away, to high for him.

    Oh well, he was on my property. I just shoot him in the head. After all, I have the right to shoot somebody in my property if I feel attacked, as it was truly the case in my mind. After all he was in the bush. I really thought the person hidden in that bush was willing to hurt my family.
    Last night, I saw somebody in that bush, probably the same pervert that is attacking people in the neighborhood.
    None of your scenarios warrant the use of deadly force ... not a one. Now had someone burst into your home then the whole story changes


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