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  1. #151
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Thank goodness for that! The one thing I do hate about DW is, precisly, its FTP feature. I find other tools more convenient.

    Having said that, it is obvious that each should use whatever suits him/her best as long as he/she knows and controls what he/she's doing.
    Couldn't agree more!

    I just don't get the FTP on save thing and in one way that scares me somewhat. It could mean you are building / making changes live to a site without first properly testing them on a local machine. Especially if you are doing any kind of dynamic work.

    I've seen it a million times where someone is working 'live' on a server and screws something up big time, then its OH S**T time.

    I build and test everything 100% locally on xampp and only when I am 100% sure everything is perfect do I then FTP files to the server ....

  2. #152
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailslide View Post
    Here we go - back to the "it's either Dreamweaver or Notepad" argument.

    Many HTML editors will do exactly what you've quoted and are free!
    Yeah, but do they also ftp (upload on save), save snippets, close open tags, etc.? maybe some do. I have not found one that does yet. It's just my opinion, but I think DW is much better for coders in code view.

    What is your experience with DW? I know i put it off for years because it seem too complicated at first. Once I learned it in College, I kicked myself in the butay for not learning it sooner.

  3. #153
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo3120 View Post
    Code:
            
                     
                     
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2 >email 
    us:</FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2><STRONG>&nbsp;</STRONG><A HREF="mailto:aymen5567@aol.com"> <FONT size=3><STRONG><EM>aymen5567@aol.com</EM>
    </STRONG></FONT></A></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></td> 
    </tr> 
    </table>
    Here's an example of a block of code generated by Dreamweaver....no thanks
    How did you come up with that?

  4. #154
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo3120 View Post
    I used DW for years solely for the code color coding and built in ftp (which was a terrible ftp client anyway), wouldn't dare switch to design view. I've since found that Ultraedit (very similar to EditPad) can do everything I used DW for on a much smaller footprint. I'm using TortoiseSVN to checkout my code from an svn repository now, but UE's built in ftp client works great the few times I do need to use it.
    Thanks for the tip. I'll note that.

    What kind of issue do you have with DW's ftp? I have used wsftp for years until I learned DW. ws just became completely unnecessary.

    A common mistake with the ftp issue, is many people forget to chnage to "remote view" in DW to set permissions and see the other remote options available. If you leave it on "Local view' you will only ever be able to upload and download.

  5. #155
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    Yeah, but do they also ftp (upload on save), save snippets, close open tags, etc.? maybe some do. I have not found one that does yet. It's just my opinion, but I think DW is much better for coders in code view.

    What is your experience with DW? I know i put it off for years because it seem too complicated at first. Once I learned it in College, I kicked myself in the butay for not learning it sooner.
    I would advise you to check out an earlier, more lengthy reply that I made about how vim has unlimited features, really. The only editor I can think of that comes close or may surpass it in features is emacs.. which has a plugin to have a browser, irc chat, command line/REPL/interpreters, et cetera.. its like a whole godamn OS but it's a text editor.

  6. #156
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    I would advise you to check out an earlier, more lengthy reply that I made about how vim has unlimited features, really. The only editor I can think of that comes close or may surpass it in features is emacs.. which has a plugin to have a browser, irc chat, command line/REPL/interpreters, et cetera.. its like a whole godamn OS but it's a text editor.
    I'll check it out.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    Notepad does not ftp on save.
    You shouldn't perform edits on files residing in a live environment, so that's sort of a moot point. You should rather use version control (svn, git, mercurial, cvs, etc.) and develop on your own machine. Then you can checkout (or export) a stable and tested version to your production environment. You wouldn't want your users to see verbose error messages or see debugging output while browsing your website. The latter will make you stand out as an amateur, the former will be a security issue. You wouldn't tamper with software running on hospital equipment keeping an ICU patient alive either. You'd develop it somewhere else, test it and make sure it works and then update the software (okay, in this instance you'd probably wait with the software update until the equipment had been detached from a patient, but you get the point I'm sure).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    Adobe products are also what most Colleges teach with these days.
    You should learn to program/code independently of a particular editor/IDE, so in terms of learning how to program/code, the choice of editor/IDE is largely irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    When you master [Dreamweaver], there is no alternative.
    That's subjective. I prefer Zend Studio for prolonged programming sessions where I will, for minor edits, use vim in a GNU/Linux environment and Notepad++ in a Windows environment.


    I'm quite sure that when people say you should learn how to code with notepad that they mean you should learn how to code of independently any assisting features. Notepad is probably just used as an example because it's likely the most minimalistic editor that exists (and as you pointed out, too minimalistic for real world usage in the sense that it lacks many useful productivity features such as those in e.g. vim or a full-fledged IDE).

  8. #158
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel0 View Post
    That's subjective. I prefer Zend Studio for prolonged programming sessions where I will, for minor edits, use vim in a GNU/Linux environment and Notepad++ in a Windows environment.
    How come you don't use vim/gvim on Windows?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    How come you don't use vim/gvim on Windows?
    Good question. To be honest, I don't really know...

  10. #160
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel0 View Post
    You shouldn't perform edits on files residing in a live environment, so that's sort of a moot point. You should rather use version control (svn, git, mercurial, cvs, etc.) and develop on your own machine. Then you can checkout (or export) a stable and tested version to your production environment. You wouldn't want your users to see verbose error messages or see debugging output while browsing your website. The latter will make you stand out as an amateur, the former will be a security issue. You wouldn't tamper with software running on hospital equipment keeping an ICU patient alive either. You'd develop it somewhere else, test it and make sure it works and then update the software (okay, in this instance you'd probably wait with the software update until the equipment had been detached from a patient, but you get the point I'm sure).



    You should learn to program/code independently of a particular editor/IDE, so in terms of learning how to program/code, the choice of editor/IDE is largely irrelevant.



    That's subjective. I prefer Zend Studio for prolonged programming sessions where I will, for minor edits, use vim in a GNU/Linux environment and Notepad++ in a Windows environment.


    I'm quite sure that when people say you should learn how to code with notepad that they mean you should learn how to code of independently any assisting features. Notepad is probably just used as an example because it's likely the most minimalistic editor that exists (and as you pointed out, too minimalistic for real world usage in the sense that it lacks many useful productivity features such as those in e.g. vim or a full-fledged IDE).
    I love the way you tell me what I should and should not do. Pretty bossy and judgmental. You have no clue who I am, how long I've been developing for, what my education level is and what I do and do not know.

    If you read me previous posts, you would already know that I do hand-code with other programs. And that I know more than Adobe products. I bet you wasted 20 minutes of your life carefully instructing on what I "should" do.

  11. #161
    SitePoint Member wew's Avatar
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    notepad vs dreamweaver

    this is apples to oranges -

    there are plenty of very nice text editors built to code, like HTML-kit and notepad++ and pspad just to name a few out of the thousands - people say notepad to make a point but i think anyone really using notepad to code is just stupid -

    use and editor thats built for writing web pages, one that color codes tags and has macros and editable libraries -

    Dreamweaver is great for people that don't know how to code and are the only ones working on a site, but it is hell on real programmers who have to deal with the garbage it spews. I spend a lot of time fixing problems that were created by our designers using dreamweaver, then we try to incorporate minimal back-end functinality and you have a huge mess on your hands - design should be done in photoshop or illustrator not a WISYWIG HTML editor

    build your site, slice it with imageready and add your links and image maps with HTML-kit - you get clean code and much simpler files to deal with

    and the people above are right, dreamweaver is not faster, once you get a nice HTML editor and a decent code library you can make sites much faster than using a drag and drop editor that creates so much uncessecary CSS it makes me cringe every time i open a dreamweaver file

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I can assure you I know what I'm doing! Although I do admit I have some more learning with CSS and even clean HTML
    You cant say you know what you are doing and then say in the next breath you need to learn something. That just doesn't make sense.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by wew View Post
    build your site, slice it with imageready and add your links and image maps with HTML-kit
    E-Commerce Development
    www.andrewstallings.com

  14. #164
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    ^^and on that note....everyone be sure to check out http://shouldiusetablesforlayout.com/
    E-Commerce Development
    www.andrewstallings.com

  15. #165
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    I love the way you tell me what I should and should not do. Pretty bossy and judgmental. You have no clue who I am, how long I've been developing for, what my education level is and what I do and do not know.

    If you read me previous posts, you would already know that I do hand-code with other programs. And that I know more than Adobe products. I bet you wasted 20 minutes of your life carefully instructing on what I "should" do.
    I would pretty much second Daniel 0 on all of the points he stated. I don't really think he was bossing you around but just providing useful information, as I find this to be the most informative and knowledgeable post in this thread yet.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    I love the way you tell me what I should and should not do. Pretty bossy and judgmental. You have no clue who I am, how long I've been developing for, what my education level is and what I do and do not know.
    It has nothing to do with being bossy. It's just best practice. I don't think it's judgmental either. I think it's fair to assume that the reason why you say a feature lacks from something is because you want to use it. Therefore, when you say that notepad lacks the ability to auto FTP your edits to the site, then I think it's fair to assume that it's what you do.

    It's not like I'm forcing you or going to beat you with a stick if you don't change coding practices. Would you jump in and call somebody bossy and judgmental if he suggested to another person that he should validate his HTML as well?

    "I think you should ... instead of ..." is called a suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavinco View Post
    If you read me previous posts, you would already know that I do hand-code with other programs. And that I know more than Adobe products. I bet you wasted 20 minutes of your life carefully instructing on what I "should" do.
    How did I say you did not hand-code? How did I say that's not possible with Dreamweaver or that Dreamweaver is a bad product? Finally, how did I suggest that your knowledge of Adobe products is inferior to mine?

    I don't think I've wasted any time posting here. In fact, I'd probably "waste" more time if I had to check the post history of every single person I'm responding to. I also "love the way you" expect me to remember the contents of all posts and who made them in a seven page long thread.

    As I said, I don't think I'm wasting my time here. If I post a response to somebody's topic and that helps him/her, then I've not wasted my time. If what I said was incorrect and somebody came and corrected me, then I will have learned something new and thus not wasted my time. If it was correct and the person disregarded my advice then there is a chance somebody else might read it and therefore I still do not think I have wasted my time.

    If you regard participation in this forum as a waste of time, then it might perhaps be worth reevaluating how you dispose over your time?

    Quote Originally Posted by WavyDavy View Post
    You cant say you know what you are doing and then say in the next breath you need to learn something. That just doesn't make sense.
    I think it makes sense. Learning is a continuous process and doesn't really ever stop. If you stop your learning then your skills will eventually become archaic and useless. This is the reason why many people will find their old code really bad when they look back at it. This is a good sign, because it's a sign of progression.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by wew View Post
    Dreamweaver is great for people that don't know how to code and are the only ones working on a site, but it is hell on real programmers who have to deal with the garbage it spews. I spend a lot of time fixing problems that were created by our designers using dreamweaver, then we try to incorporate minimal back-end functinality and you have a huge mess on your hands - design should be done in photoshop or illustrator not a WISYWIG HTML editor

    build your site, slice it with imageready and add your links and image maps with HTML-kit - you get clean code and much simpler files to deal with

    and the people above are right, dreamweaver is not faster, once you get a nice HTML editor and a decent code library you can make sites much faster than using a drag and drop editor that creates so much uncessecary CSS it makes me cringe every time i open a dreamweaver file
    You're instantly assuming that people use Dreamweaver for WYSWYG, and not hand coding in it... I can at least say for myself, and all designers I talk to: we all hand code.

    If you are spending time to fix errors your designer has in his code because he uses dreamweaver: get a new designer, he doesn't know what he's doing, or he's lazy.

    Honestly, speediness of a designer depends entirely on the designer, and their work ethic. I'm honestly tired of everyone labeling anyone that uses dreamweaver to be a WYSWYG designer. I'm also tired of people constantly saying it creates unncessary code: Hey, guess what, thats the designers fault, either because he didn't handcode with code view, or that he lacks the training to design valid sites.

    Seriously, you all need to stop trying to push your ideal program on everyone, and let people use what they wish. Make suggestions, but berating people for a program they use, or blaming that program for every miniscule error, when its all dependent on how thorough a designer is in their coding.

  18. #168
    Non-Member Musicbox's Avatar
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    you can use free html editor like 1stpage which can be downloaded from http://www.evrsoft.com

  19. #169
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    Real men don't WYSIWYG

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I am upset. Someone told me my boss said he doesn't want us to use Dreamweaver anymore! That is insane! Dreamweaver is an important designing tool, and a powerful one at that! I have been having problems with my programmers all because of the issues between an HTML Dreamweaver file and a Microsoft Visual Studio ASP file. The problem is NOT Dreamweaver, the problem is what we are doing with the files. Do you agree that saying a designer can't use Dreamweaver anymore is a gross error? Or does it really matter? I hate to have to fight him on this. But I don't want anyone making decisions out of ignorance either! By illuminating Dreamweaver would be to slow down the design process significantly!
    It's not an error. If your job is to work with HTML, CSS and Javascript, you should be able to work with them with or with out a tool. Granted it may slow down productivity, but if your boss understands that then its on him. I wouldn't sweat it too much. I hand code ever thing and I don't really notice much of a problem. I kind of like the melody of my keystrokes :3

    Quote Originally Posted by wkdown View Post
    Real men don't WYSIWYG
    If your using windows you have no right to be proud... If your using linux, you may continue >.>
    Creativity knows no other restraint than the
    confines of a small mind.
    - Me
    Geekly Humor
    Oh baby! Check out the design patterns on that framework!

  21. #171
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by imaginethis View Post
    If your using windows you have no right to be proud... If your using linux, you may continue >.>
    Promoting your favorite operating system by mocking whomever doesn't use it isn't likely to have any good conversion rate, you know. In fact, I'd imagine quite the opposite to be true. If you present yourself as representing something in an elitist manner then you will give whatever you represent a bad image.

  22. #172
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    i will still use Dreamweaver....its so easy

  23. #173
    SitePoint Zealot Lavinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel0 View Post
    It has nothing to do with being bossy. It's just best practice. I don't think it's judgmental either. I think it's fair to assume that the reason why you say a feature lacks from something is because you want to use it. Therefore, when you say that notepad lacks the ability to auto FTP your edits to the site, then I think it's fair to assume that it's what you do.

    It's not like I'm forcing you or going to beat you with a stick if you don't change coding practices. Would you jump in and call somebody bossy and judgmental if he suggested to another person that he should validate his HTML as well?

    "I think you should ... instead of ..." is called a suggestion.



    How did I say you did not hand-code? How did I say that's not possible with Dreamweaver or that Dreamweaver is a bad product? Finally, how did I suggest that your knowledge of Adobe products is inferior to mine?

    I don't think I've wasted any time posting here. In fact, I'd probably "waste" more time if I had to check the post history of every single person I'm responding to. I also "love the way you" expect me to remember the contents of all posts and who made them in a seven page long thread.

    As I said, I don't think I'm wasting my time here. If I post a response to somebody's topic and that helps him/her, then I've not wasted my time. If what I said was incorrect and somebody came and corrected me, then I will have learned something new and thus not wasted my time. If it was correct and the person disregarded my advice then there is a chance somebody else might read it and therefore I still do not think I have wasted my time.

    If you regard participation in this forum as a waste of time, then it might perhaps be worth reevaluating how you dispose over your time?



    I think it makes sense. Learning is a continuous process and doesn't really ever stop. If you stop your learning then your skills will eventually become archaic and useless. This is the reason why many people will find their old code really bad when they look back at it. This is a good sign, because it's a sign of progression.
    Merry Christmas

  24. #174
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    SEO/SEM folks finally talked some sense into the Dreamweaver dreamers.

  25. #175
    SitePoint Addict zipperz's Avatar
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    I don’t play in code that often I do mostly design/graphics.

    But I started playing around with PHP a little and when you get an error on line 345 how long will that take to find in note pad?

    Or find and replace 100 different objects, have fun doing that in notepad.

    Unless you have a better version then me, my note pad has almost no tools.. tools are nice.


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