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  1. #251
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Tailslide's Avatar
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    Yes PSPad is very nice - it's my main alternate editing package.
    Little Blue Plane Web Design
    Blood, Sweat & Rust - A Land Rover restoration project

  2. #252
    SitePoint Evangelist jonbey's Avatar
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    I have been using PSPad for a while now. It is all I have! Why have WYSIWYG when you have "save, refresh browser, look"?

    OK. If someone gave me Dreamweaver for my birthday, I find it useful, but until that happens, PSPad is doing a good job.

  3. #253
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    Tried Aptana yesterday (looks bit like DreamWeaver), but it's full of windows, options and buttons, not my cup of tea. You first need a manual to set everything.
    There normally is a php function to debug that didn't work, and view php pages in a local server area, didn't work that good too as on my own webspace. Perhaps lots of properties to set in the options of the software. But I don't like setting all stuff I don't know about.

    But, PSPad is great also. Less menus

    I like using Notepad 2.0 also.

  4. #254
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Wow, this is quite a thread.

    Well I started using Visual Studio and I can honestly say there is no difference between is and Dreamweaver CS3. It works just the same, at least for web design. As others have stated a tool is a tool. It might work better for back end functions, but I am not a back end programmer.

    I do agree that hard coding is the way to go and I have been doing that for the most part.

    I am also sorry to say that my company made some drastic layoffs and I am one of them. They let go 11 people. Ironically, they are keeping two of the most incompetent in our division. Oh well, kissing up to the boss can get a person far in life.

    Onwards and upwards.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailslide View Post
    Yes PSPad is very nice - it's my main alternate editing package.
    i'm gonna try it asap.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue. The issue is that my programming coworker does not understand fully what I am giving him/her! My coworker even has arguments with the other programmer because she does not understand the JavaScript! So it's not my problem, it's his/here lack of understanding!

    One responder is right. By having me as a designer switch from Dreamweaver to Visual Studio, it will throw a big wrench in the productivity of the jobs I do. I am NOT about to hand code this stuff when I can do the work twice as fast with Dreamweaver. This is so unfair! They are leveraging these two designers and throwing me out to dry! This is being done out of pure ignorance!

    ASP can just as easily be done in Dreamweaver as it can be in Visual Studio, can it not? So why not do it in Dreameaver. After all, Dreamweaver works smoother with the entire Abobe family of products.

    I can see I have a war ahead of me.
    well your co worker is right if you create your html code throught design mode, but if you create html using dreamweaver because what you seek is autocomplete from dreamweaver your co worker is wrong

  7. #257
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirie View Post
    well your co worker is right if you create your html code throught design mode, but if you create html using dreamweaver because what you seek is autocomplete from dreamweaver your co worker is wrong
    What do you mean by autocomplete?

  8. #258
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    AKA if you type a tag such as <div> it will create </div> for you as to ensure validated code.
    Twitter-@Ryan_Reese09
    http://www.ryanreese.us -Always looking for web design/development work

  9. #259
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    AKA if you type a tag such as <div> it will create </div> for you as to ensure validated code.
    Oh, are you referring to auto complete?

  10. #260
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    I assume thatis waht they mean by auto complete. I don't use WYSIWYG editors: overrated peices of sh1t.(imo)

    Notepad=me.
    Twitter-@Ryan_Reese09
    http://www.ryanreese.us -Always looking for web design/development work

  11. #261
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    I assume thatis waht they mean by auto complete. I don't use WYSIWYG editors: overrated peices of sh1t.(imo)

    Notepad=me.
    Do you consider Dreamweaver a WYSIWIG editor? I don't.
    What do you use?

  12. #262
    billycundiff{float:left;} silver trophybronze trophy RyanReese's Avatar
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    Notepad=me

    I use regular Notepad that comes with windows.

    You don't consider Dreamweaver a WYSIWYG? I think about 90&#37; of the people here will disagree with you.
    Twitter-@Ryan_Reese09
    http://www.ryanreese.us -Always looking for web design/development work

  13. #263
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    oh the design mode mean WYSIWYG, but it was pretty bad in generating code,

    I know it first when I create website template with notepad++ and then give it to my friend so he can put dummies data, but when the template come to me again the code is became so terrible it takes a lot of time just to read entire code, even after that I still got confused dreamweaver put to many properties on html which can easily created with css

    so I just leave it like that it was not my problem, since I already tell him dont depend on dreamweaver to much

  14. #264
    SitePoint Addict SilentBobSC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    Notepad=me

    I use regular Notepad that comes with windows.

    You don't consider Dreamweaver a WYSIWYG? I think about 90&#37; of the people here will disagree with you.
    Well Ryan, you may have CSS chops, but Comic Sans? Really?! Bleargh!

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanReese View Post
    Notepad=me

    I use regular Notepad that comes with windows.

    You don't consider Dreamweaver a WYSIWYG? I think about 90% of the people here will disagree with you.
    There are tools that help with your HTML that are way better than Notepad but that are still not WYSIWYG editors.

    Dreamweaver now has a Code View that is much like the HTML editor HomeSite. So you can do all raw code in Dreamweaver . . . and I have done it at jobs that had Dreamweaver as their only web page editing tool.

  16. #266
    SitePoint Guru bronze trophy Slackr's Avatar
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    Dang I started reading this thread and it soon turned into a geek fest. Have to say I am disappointed by the lack of vision of many of the hard core programmers here. Code code code it is all about the code...must be pure....must know it all...must cram so many things inside my head...must abuse anyone who thinks otherwise...it's all about the purity of the code.

    I have nothing against good code and learning hand coding. But let's not kid ourselves people. There are hideous non compliant websites out there that make money, fulfil the companies desire for an online presence, have insanely bloated and terrible code but still work.

    DW is a tool. Editpad/Notepad is a tool. There is no sustitute for knowledge, but using a tool is just that - using a tool. It won't replace knowledge. I use tools that make me more efficient and faster to achieve what I need to in a shorter amount of time. What works for me and makes me faster might not work for you. If you don't believe me then try teaching a co-worker or letting a co-worker show you their methods.

    BTW anyone else find it funny that people who say they are hand coders usually have pre-stored libraries of code or run other time saving applications in the background? They're not just using Notepad and if they are - why would you not use some of these other tools?

    Have to say I was disappointed in this tread that the advice for someone seeking it was pointing out his supposed short comings in coding, blaming his reliance on a tool, and turning it all into a Notepad vs DW debate.

  17. #267
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    So on one hand you don't like people talking about the purity of the code but on the other hand you don't understand why "hard core coders" don't just stick to Notepad so they can remain pure?

    I haven't seen a Notepad vs. Dreamweaver debate here. What you see in something like HomeSite and what you see in the code view of DW is very similar to what you see in Notepad with some helpful color coding added and things like auto-suggest and auto-complete there to save you some typing and some carpal tunnel syndrome.

  18. #268
    SitePoint Guru bronze trophy Slackr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MauiMan2 View Post
    So on one hand you don't like people talking about the purity of the code but on the other hand you don't understand why "hard core coders" don't just stick to Notepad so they can remain pure?
    Yep I find it dumb that most of the 'I only use Notepad'-ers are typically using other techniques to enhance their productivity ie. using tools. But somehow using a different tool that might combine multiple functions is somehow inferior? Even if that product is called something like Dreamweaver. Doesn't make sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiMan2 View Post
    with some helpful color coding added and things like auto-suggest and auto-complete there to save you some typing and some carpal tunnel syndrome.
    Agreed. That's my point, why would you not use these things? They save time and visually help you read code.

  19. #269
    SitePoint Zealot
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    I use them. You still need to know HTML in a non-WYSIWYG way to take advantage of them yet their presence helps.

  20. #270
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    Wow this thread got side tracked. Ultimately, code is code and no one likes change, but you might find if you try the change you will have learned something new that can actually be quite useful. Dreamweaver is a very useful application, but there are many other applications that do virtually the same thing.

  21. #271
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    Why don't you start using wysiwyg editor. Its a best option if your boss is saying not to use dreamweaver.

  22. #272
    SitePoint Evangelist Pixelateur's Avatar
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    I think your boss is completely right. Dreamweaver is for beginners, not for pros. I remember a few years back I built my first site in Dreamweaver. But then I quickly realised how silly this is. Since Dreamweaver automatically writes the HTML for me, I never had to learn the language which put me in a lot of trouble later on. Sometimes, ugly browser bugs would occur, I couldn't tell why, couldn't even read the HTML behind it. I then starting learning HTML properly, and today I am using TextMate, i.e. just a simple text editor, to code my site by hand. This gives me far better results, and it's more reliable because I know exactly what my HTML code does and why.

  23. #273
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Centauri's Avatar
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    I don't know why this argument keeps cropping up.... Whilst Dreamweaver has a lot of junk in it that seems to target beginners, it's price certainly doesn't. Dreamweaver will only produce garbage code if you tell it to do so, and inserting anything in the design view window is the surest way to do this. If you keep to the code view window, there is no reason why you cannot produce valid, semantic code using Dreamweaver - failure to do so is simply operator error....

  24. #274
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri View Post
    I don't know why this argument keeps cropping up.... Whilst Dreamweaver has a lot of junk in it that seems to target beginners, it's price certainly doesn't. Dreamweaver will only produce garbage code if you tell it to do so, and inserting anything in the design view window is the surest way to do this. If you keep to the code view window, there is no reason why you cannot produce valid, semantic code using Dreamweaver - failure to do so is simply operator error....
    This is spot on. Dreamweaver is also a magnificent all around web based application since it can do such a wide variety of things. It is not the best in any one category such as PHP (PHPDesigner is much better) for example, but it keeps all these options plus TONS more right at your finger tips. It can be used from beginners all the way up to the expert level. It is best to use Dreamweaver in code view. Only use design view if you have to do a quick insert or edit, view your layout, or find a certain spot within your code (ex: to fix a broken complex table). I personally cannot think of a better way to edit someone else's super complex table (a thousand lines of just table code for example). In DW if I need to do a right align on a bunch of cells I can select all the cells at once from the design view and hit "right align". This would take forever in notepad especially if the table is complex. Of course CSS is the best way to do table editing. But if it is a quick edit for some else's site, you do not have time to go through the entire site and create a CSS document for it when all you want to do is a simple right align for X-amount of cells. The benefits do not of course end with tables. It really just depends on the operator.

  25. #275
    Theoretical Physics Student bronze trophy Jake Arkinstall's Avatar
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    Heck, it's programs like Dreamweaver that are the major reason behind some (what many may call undereducated or disillusioned) developers from using tables in the first place!

    Sure, it was a good way to layout pages way back in the day, but that's no longer the case. Still, new developers do a 'website' in DreamWeaver and may decide to learn HTML - not off a decent tutorial, but off DreamWeaver!

    If you're ever going to learn how to do something the right way, don't look at how software does it. DreamWeaver cuts corners so that the page looks right to browsers. Personally, if I can't get a good understanding of the page and content by looking at the HTML, I'd call it badly formed.
    Jake Arkinstall
    "Sometimes you don't need to reinvent the wheel;
    Sometimes its enough to make that wheel more rounded"-Molona


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