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  1. #226
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    I think every WYSIWYG is faulty and can never replace the experience of a skilled XHTML/CSS guru...

    That being said, depending on what your developing/devliering DreamWeaver would probably speed up the process.
    The only constant in software is change itself

  2. #227
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    Across the span of 3 monitors, I have a minimum of 6 windows open ( so i can look at the source for all 6 at once ) so if I'm working with front end apps, I can edit the ecmascript/css/markup and the logic on the backend all at once by jumping between the windows instead of ctrl tabbing through silly tabs.
    You are a god. I am not worthy.
    Back to regex compilation, I can define my own functions for common regexes. I have a function to convert all literal symbol characters to their entity / references instead, so a literal bullet sign would turn into • et cetera, I have around 50 or so right now and I can keep on adding them. I can do this across directories, files, sections with *one* function call.
    Could you share your code for replacing html entities? I had no idea there was a way to recognize bullets and replace them. I actually paste crap in notepad before moving it to vi just to get rid of them.
    primary-about|About
    primary-contact|Contact

    Then I record my keyboard combos ( which I'm pretty fast with now ) for the first list element ( adding the <li id=" before the attribute value, jumping to the | and adding the end quote, removing the | and adding the span around the text.. so if I had 15 or so items I would record myself doing the first, and do 14@a which applies the same combination for the next 14 lines, and from then on I'm pretty much done ( unless its adding some logic for current state, et cetera ).
    How are you doing the keyboard combos?

    Feel free to start a new thread and link to it. This is probably going to be a whole thread/education in itself.

    i've got the OReilly vi manual somewhere around here. Need to go look at it some more.

  3. #228
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    All this discussion is great, but what I'm looking for is a good editor that handles:

    • PHP formatting/indenting
    • HTML formatting/indenting
    • Tag/code/quote "closure" (not sure of the exact term). Want to be able to see if a <div>, brace, or quote is missing.
    • Easy switch to a WYSIWYG for a visual check.


    A lot of my work involves fixing other people's code. I also find myself taking snippets for reuse and fixing them. I'd like to have a way to instantly reformat the code to a consistent convention - 4 character tabs, etc.

    I mostly use VI, but I'm open to something with the above.

    Any recommendations?

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I have to agree with your co-workers. Nothing better than 10 fingers and notepad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I love it when people say they hand code all the time. Then I look at their websites and shake my head in disbelief.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren884 View Post
    You need to be an *** and start doing your work slower because having Dreamweaver saves a lot of time. Tell your co-worker she needs to loosen up a little bit and she needs to take in account that shes working with a designer. Dreamweaver in most areas produces good code and is great for editing programming files.

    Also for the people that tout they use only Notepad try using it when you have to work on over 50 different sites per day.
    Yes, Dreamweaver is fast and nice... but also expensive.
    If you want a few adobe products, like photoshop and dreamweaver, and maybe illustrator or fireworks or something like that, you can better get the Creative Suite, but that's like 1600 $$$.

    I'm not going to pay that on my own just to make a couple of websites.

    I'm not a pro webdesigner, I work fulltime in a st00pid admin job that has nothing to do with this... but maybe some day I'll work as a webdesigner.

    Let's say I'm just a webdesign amateur as hobby. I'm doing this for around 8-9 years now, just for fun.
    First I learned HTML, CSS, in notepad.
    First learned coding wrong, with frames and table designs etc...
    Anyway, I had the opportunity to work with Dreamweaver for an hour at my borther's, and that software put all the code on the wrong places, it put lots of code in where it wasn't necessary,... So I returned to my basic Notepad.
    Some time ago, learned how to code right, xhtml, learned the basics of php too. Just ordered some books to learn the basics of javascript and ajax.
    Still coding in notepad at the moment.

    Well... It's not that I can't afford it, but for a hobby, it's not worth spending that money on too expensive software like Dreamweaver etc...
    Also, there are not much courses to get you work decent with that software here in my neighbourhood, so it would be learning it by myself again, probably in the wrong way. Also, for Illustrator or other software, no courses available here... unless for big prices I won't afford.
    You also don't learn it in a second... it takes a lot of time, time that I haven't.

    That's actually the main reason why I stick coding in Notepad 2.0
    It's quite slow, I know. But I also learn how to code right, where I make mistakes etc...
    I also have other hobbies like playing guitar, photography,...
    When learning webdesign in my free time, I don't have time for all of this.
    In a few months we'll have a baby here, and than I guess... I won't even have time for webdesign. So I guess I'll never be a pro webdesigner.... or a webdesigner that codes with fancy soft like DW.

    You have to understand some people still code manually in Notepad.
    And there's a difference between people who do it all by theirselves and website teams with different skilled people: a guy for design, a girl who writes content, another guy who implements scripting and behaviours or databases,...

  5. #230
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    Is this thread still going?

    What follows is not meant to offend, it is just my opinion...

    Two things. One never trust a machine/program/someone else to do what you can and should be able to do for yourself, and second stop whining.

    If your boss says you can't use it then that is what you have to live with, unless you can convince them otherwise. 6 pages of bemoaning the loss of a tool that you should be using to enhance your work flow, not supplement it, seems to be far too many.

    So to sum up my comment, as a "Web Designer" you should know at least the following: HTML, CSS. You should know them well enough that you don't need a tool, DW = glorified text editor/FTP client, to do all of your code writing for you. If you are so reliant on a tool that your work flow will be brought to a stand still without it, then maybe you don't really know enough about your job in the first place to do it effectively and should look for another line of work.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by funktifyknow View Post
    Two things. One never trust a machine/program/someone else to do what you can and should be able to do for yourself, and second stop whining.
    I agree. I usually whip out my hex editor and just start coding leet style straight in machine code.

  7. #232
    SitePoint Member cymrojazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. .
    What sort of errors? non w3c compliance issues?

    You can always W3C validate your code using Dreamweaver ( to some extent) any number of sites or products- after a while you start checking in code view and spot the mistakes before you even have to validate and you remember the common repeated Dreamweaver omissions.

    Also re hand coding - there's little difference in using code view in Dreamweaver and using Notepad - oh apart from the handy drop down menus, line numbers, tag selector menu, snippets, 'colour coded' code / tags... ... ... actually come to think of there's quite a bit of help but doing it in code view keeps you in control and with instant multiple browser preview etc etc etc

  8. #233
    SitePoint Evangelist IJoeR's Avatar
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    Question1:
    Have you talked to your boss about what you heard? Did your boss in fact say that he wanted everyone to stop using DW?

    Question2:
    How does the workflow work at your job? You are a designer correct? Do you spend most of your time in Photoshop and other graphics programs?

    Comments:
    I read one comment that said something to the effect of if your boss took away your DW then it should be ok because u should be able to use any program to code your sites with.

    I completely disagree. I, of course, can make a website using notepad. But what's the point of it? Bragging rights? I'm not in the business for bragging rights. My goals as a programmer are always to write good, clean code and to expedite websites as quickly as possible. I can achieve these goals using dreamweaver. I could also achieve the same goals using notepad, but it would take alot longer to accomplish and i feel like i would be miserable throughout the entire process.

    You might disagree with me, but I look at it this way. I work at a company that is 99&#37; mac. I am one of three people in the company that gets to use a PC. If my boss were to tell me that I had to use a mac instead of a PC to do my job, well that would put a serious crux in my workflow because i would have to learn all of the things about the mac and its workflow. In addition to my PC, i have a mac mini -- The computers aren't created equally. I like the PC way of things much better but that is entirely because I am very familiar with it. So, i can see why it would suck if one day they just said "no DW, u have to use VS". The two programs might look similiar or whatever but they aren't the same. DW has a very distinct way of doing things that i like alot and after doing things a certain way for 4 yrs, i don't want to change. I've never used VS before.

    With that said, I think you do need to change how u use DW. I only use the code view and i preview my webpages in multiple browsers while i code the CSS.

    I think the fact that you are learning how to do front end development is great. I think every designer should learn how to do front end development so they understand what options they have when they build the website. Definitely don't rely on the visual view in DW. It will write bloated code just like frontpage would if you relied on it too much.

  9. #234
    SitePoint Evangelist IJoeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funktifyknow View Post
    Is this thread still going?

    What follows is not meant to offend, it is just my opinion...

    Two things. One never trust a machine/program/someone else to do what you can and should be able to do for yourself, and second stop whining.

    If your boss says you can't use it then that is what you have to live with, unless you can convince them otherwise. 6 pages of bemoaning the loss of a tool that you should be using to enhance your work flow, not supplement it, seems to be far too many.

    So to sum up my comment, as a "Web Designer" you should know at least the following: HTML, CSS. You should know them well enough that you don't need a tool, DW = glorified text editor/FTP client, to do all of your code writing for you. If you are so reliant on a tool that your work flow will be brought to a stand still without it, then maybe you don't really know enough about your job in the first place to do it effectively and should look for another line of work.
    Hmm, if you were building a house and i took the hammer away from you and told you to make it by hand, are you any less of a carpenter because now you can't drive the nails into the walls as fast?

    This is the problem i have with what you guys are saying. Tools like DW offer mini-tools inside of the programs designed specifically to make the workflow go faster. If I used DW and i wasn't getting any speed bonuses, then why should i use it? Of course removing DW from the equation and using notepad instead is going to slow you down -- and it will bring production to a stand still. Try it once. Build 2 websites, build 1 website where you use DW. Build another website where you use notepad or something barebone like that, you'll see you can't accomplish the same thing in the same time using a text editor.

    The first time you type <p> and it doesn't auto close for you, you'll be like, what the heck i have to type in all of that stuff?! You'll hate it.

  10. #235
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    ...this thread is a bit old, but why do some people still act like there are only 2 options for a text editor? seriously. in this day and age you have to be productive, and notepad.exe is not productive.... dreamweaver is a bloated, slow, memory hog of a text editor - please explore other text editors that are out there.
    Cross browser css bugs

    Dan Schulz you will be missed

  11. #236
    SitePoint Evangelist IJoeR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    ...this thread is a bit old, but why do some people still act like there are only 2 options for a text editor? seriously. in this day and age you have to be productive, and notepad.exe is not productive.... dreamweaver is a bloated, slow, memory hog of a text editor - please explore other text editors that are out there.
    I think u miss the point when we say "notepad" and "DW". These are two opposite ends of the spectrum. One is complete barebone. Like all it can do is write text - it can't handle images, it can't handle anything. DW on the other hand is a fully robust website tool. I think calling DW a text editor is also a bit of a gross generalization. DW is at its very core a text editor, but it is also soooo much more then that. FTP, Template System, WYSIWYG, CSS Builder, all of those handy dandy helpful shortcuts for tags, ability to use Coldfusion/PHP/ASP right in DW is something no text editor can do. Let's stop calling DW a text editor.

  12. #237
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    One is complete barebone. Like all it can do is write text - it can't handle images, it can't handle anything
    and notepad.exe is not productive
    Template System, WYSIWYG, CSS Builder
    dreamweaver is a bloated, slow, memory hog of a text editor
    I think you're misinterpreting my statements. I would still call DW a text editor, as it's features are only a fraction of what vim or emacs can provide ( you could argue the latter is an OS ).

    My whole argument being: If the only text editor you're familiar with, the one you've mastered is Dreamweaver, you're still at the tip of the iceberg.
    Cross browser css bugs

    Dan Schulz you will be missed

  13. #238
    SitePoint Evangelist IJoeR's Avatar
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    i see you are making a comparison between vim and emacs to DW and saying these other programs are light years ahead of DW, thus reducing it to nothing more then a text-editor in comparison. Gotcha.

    What OS is vim and emacs for? Are they linux?

  14. #239
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IJoeR View Post
    i see you are making a comparison between vim and emacs to DW and saying these other programs are light years ahead of DW, thus reducing it to nothing more then a text-editor in comparison. Gotcha.

    What OS is vim and emacs for? Are they linux?
    emacs is strictly Linux, vi/vim is pretty much available on all *nix distros ( most servers in the world ) - there's a Windows version of vim at vim.org.
    Cross browser css bugs

    Dan Schulz you will be missed

  15. #240
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    emacs is strictly Linux, vi/vim is pretty much available on all *nix distros ( most servers in the world ) - there's a Windows version of vim at vim.org.
    Not quite true. Emacs runs on just about any platform/os you'd care to mention. Discussion is going on right now about whether to continue support of over 70 obsolete platform/os machines. As Richard Stallman put it:
    In Emacs 23 we are thinking of deleting Emacs support for the systems and computers listed below, because we think they are obsolete and not useful.

    If you know of a reason to keep support for any of those platforms, please send an explanation to emacs-obsolete-p...@gnu.org. We will try to keep the support for platforms that people actually want.
    Vi/m is required for all Unix/Linux platforms. *nix is a network os, and this guarantees that no matter which machine you log into, you will have a common editor. Vim is ported to Win and OSX.

    cheers,

    gary
    Anyone can build a usable website. It takes a graphic
    designer to make it slow, confusing, and painful to use.

    Simple minded html & css demos and tutorials

  16. #241
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    Google for "notepad plus" or "Geany" for some nice tools that are productive replacements for Notepad. Auto code completion, customizable color highlighting, etc...

  17. #242
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary.turner View Post
    Not quite true. Emacs runs on just about any platform/os you'd care to mention. Discussion is going on right now about whether to continue support of over 70 obsolete platform/os machines. As Richard Stallman put it:

    cheers,

    gary
    Huh wow, excuse my ignorance then as I only have used it on Debian and did not look too far into a Windows version, but it's a DAMN powerful editor.
    Cross browser css bugs

    Dan Schulz you will be missed

  18. #243
    Resident curmudgeon bronze trophy gary.turner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    <snip>, but it's a DAMN powerful editor.
    Debian is my production and server platform, too. I, at one time, kept experimenting with editors other than Emacs, but got frustrated when I couldn't do the things I take for granted in Emacs.

    cheers,

    gary
    Anyone can build a usable website. It takes a graphic
    designer to make it slow, confusing, and painful to use.

    Simple minded html & css demos and tutorials

  19. #244
    SitePoint Zealot Wynnefield's Avatar
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    Too much to read through on this thread, so if I am repeating, my apologies. However, I have used DW for 10+ years and the first few I relied heavily on the visual editor. Actually, my first thought after reading your initial post was the embedded "style1, style2, etc." when I used the visual editor to make presentational changes, like color a phrase red or blue. Then one day DW added some code I did not understand well enough to tweak and got pissed (upset, not drunk -- for the brits in the crowd) ...

    I decided if I was to be effective at all I needed to understand the code being generated, bought a book on HTML, later learned CSS and JavaScript. So now my primary focus is in the code view, occasionally using the visual window to see how well the code renders. Creating CSS templates for two, three or four column grids and/or semantically marked up XHTML pages also help speed up the process when I am asked to produce a large number of projects in a short period of time (like always). I also tend to submit my pages to the W3 validators, although DW has its own validation options.

    I find I am much more effective than before understanding the markup, CSS and scripting languages. This gives me much greater control as to what DW produces for pages that are passed along to a development team. I have even experimented with the template feature of DW with some degree of success; however, this runs the risk of creating similar site layouts for several customers if the CSS is not adjusted accordingly.

    Anyway, by now I suspect you have received whatever feedback and/or answer you were seeking. Good luck and I wish you the best, as I just left a most similar situation using DW with a team of .NET developers in MS Visual Studio. It was a great learning experience for me, as i got to take away a new found appreciation for XML and its flexibility for creating multiple configuration files and interfacing with the YUI library.

  20. #245
    SitePoint Member cymrojazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IJoeR View Post
    I think every designer should learn how to do front end development so they understand what options they have when they build the website. Definitely don't rely on the visual view in DW. It will write bloated code just like frontpage would if you relied on it too much.
    I have to agree and disagree, - using the code view primarily is good practice, after you've decided on paper or illustrator or photoshop etc what you want your page to look like.

    But even in Design View Dreamweaver doesn't produce nearly as much bloated code / proprietorial nonsense as Front Page.
    I took over maintenance and revamping of some sites that had clearly been designed in Front Page and I had a lot of mess to clear up - or was it just the designers who didn't know what they were doing and just happened to have used Front Page?

  21. #246
    SitePoint Zealot nepalsites's Avatar
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    no dreamweaver = no design?

  22. #247
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    You should have static roughs before you move to Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver isn't meant to be used to design a site. You should accomplish that in a vector or raster package before scripting the front-end of the site.

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by IJoeR View Post
    The first time you type <p> and it doesn't auto close for you, you'll be like, what the heck i have to type in all of that stuff?! You'll hate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by hirtman View Post
    Google for "notepad plus" or "Geany" for some nice tools that are productive replacements for Notepad. Auto code completion, customizable color highlighting, etc...
    Indeed, I use Notepad 2.0 with auto code completion and color highlightings, ... Works fine for me. And it's free.

    But DW seems more complicated to me, more menu's, buttons, ... you'll first spend a few hours to get to know how everything's working. And it costs a lot, unless you download it illegally.

    But IJoeR has a good point of the housebuilder's boss who takes away the hammer from it's housebuilders. If you're used to something and have to step back... it's always pain

  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    You should have static roughs before you move to Dreamweaver, Dreamweaver isn't meant to be used to design a site. You should accomplish that in a vector or raster package before scripting the front-end of the site.
    Something like Fireworks?

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