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  1. #76
    SitePoint Addict dgroves's Avatar
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    Personally, I hate dreamweaver, XHTML and CSS is much faster

    I've used both for long periods of time.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgroves View Post
    Personally, I hate dreamweaver, XHTML and CSS is much faster
    These are the comments I don't understand. Dreamweaver produces XHTML and CSS. If it doesn't, that's only because you don't let it.
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  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Centauri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgroves View Post
    I hate dreamweaver, XHTML and CSS is much faster
    I hate Toyotas, driving is much better .......

  4. #79
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    Another Designer, I would highly recommend reading Design with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman. He goes into great detail about transitioning from table-based websites and the benefits.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Evangelist Scott.Botkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bals28mjk View Post
    Let me start by this, knowing how to hand code or knowing how to code with general languages you use is obviously very important, which I think every good web developer takes upon themselves to learn. With that said..

    Tell me you're one of those who thinks their brave for using notepad; those guys crack me up. Text editors aren't like training wheels, more like sitting in a comfortable chair, you don't have to sit in one but why wouldn't you?

    I don't see advantages, you only gain features.

    I didn't state any where in my response that I feel "brave" about using notepad, any 14 year old kid can open up an editor and build a website. I don't believe a company would hire someone and pay them $60k+ a year to depend on an editor to get things done, any web developer should be able to code simple html and css by hand.

  6. #81
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    Do you know your boss' reason for wanting to make the switch? It could be financial, like license costs, etc. Or it could be political, who knows, I've seen one company switch from Oracle to SQL Server simply because the boss is in good terms with Microsoft people and is cold to Oracle. Or maybe your boss just doesn't know any better. If you can write down the advantages of using dreamweaver in clear and clarifying manner, maybe it will help.
    Last edited by Plumber; Dec 18, 2008 at 07:04.

  7. #82
    SitePoint Addict mason.sklut's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like you guys need better collaboration tools.

    Look into investing in that first , then talk to your boss....

  8. #83
    SitePoint Evangelist bals28mjk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri
    I hate Toyotas, driving is much better .......
    Quit being a moron, toyotas are the way to go, driving sucks.

  9. #84
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I have to agree with your co-workers. Nothing better than 10 fingers and notepad...
    I dont even need all 10 fingers! or notepad!



    http://xkcd.com/378/

  10. #85
    SitePoint Addict mason.sklut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peach View Post
    I dont even need all 10 fingers! or notepad!

    http://xkcd.com/378/
    Love the comic. Haha.
    Last edited by mason.sklut; Dec 17, 2008 at 17:33.

  11. #86
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I doubt it would matter. I think my programming coworker is incompetent! I really doubt he was a programmer inn the past like he claims he was.
    Don't take this the wrong way (or personal, for that matter ), I haven't read the whole thread and maybe I am missing part of the information, but by the way you have explained your case, he doesn't seem to be incompetent... They way I "heard" it, it sounds as a fault on your part for speeding the process but not paying enough attention to the quality of HTML/CSS that DW creates.

    DW can be configured to create a minimum amount of rubbish but you still need to "debug" it to create clean and nice code.

    If you are responsible for the HTML code, you should be the one, in my humble opinion, to create good, quality code and not him. A programmer is not a HTML.

    I would aslo like to point out that there is a difference between being a programmer and knowing how to use JavaScript. Many back-end programmers are great in their jobs, but they don't know JavaScript. People that know JavaScript are more worried about front-end and how things happen in the browsers that how the data flows in the server and from/to the server.

    With this I mean not understanding JavaScript (or a particular programming language), it doesn't make you an incompetent programmer.

    Now, in your case, of course, you work with him, so you know if he is truly incompetent and I take your word for it.

  12. #87
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Morris View Post
    I've heard this stated out many times without the reasoning behind it so I'll provide that reasoning for those who may still disagree with this statement.
    Off Topic:

    I think that you jumped to conclusions a bit too fast, knowing DC for a long time as I know... Tables are WRONG for layouts, but not for tabular data

  13. #88
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    I've heard many htings about Dreamweaver, but I use it everyday and I can write 100% valid XHTML code on the first try combining design and code view. If someone in the company complains about the quality of Dreamweaver output, the problem is:

    1 - You still have stuff to learn on Dreamweaver.
    2 - These dudes out there don't know what they are talking about
    3 - They are trying to make Dreamweaver responsible for their own lack of skills.

  14. #89
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    I used to use tables.. as most of us did... I never hand-coded. Over the last year I have forced myself to use CSS and XTML and am now not only completely table less, but I also never use Dreamweaver's 'Design' view, as it does generate some ugly code. But I still use Dreamweaver every day, but I'm in the code view.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I use Dreamweaver nearly every day... but I also hand-code everything. I never flip into design view, ever. If I want to see how it looks, I open it up in a browser and take a look. WYSIWYG editors will never be able to create code as well as experienced hand coders can.

    Dreamweaver has a number of advantages other than the design view, and in my opinion, the design view is not worth using (that goes for any WYSIWYG editor, not just Dreamweaver).

    How I read this the programmer is getting upset about all of the random bits of code Dreamweaver adds. I'd say this is a legitimate complaint. One HTML file is no different from any other HTML file, if created properly. If they are complaining because there is an issue, then you probably aren't doing your pages that well.

    After a bit of practice you can produce pages a lot faster hand-coding then you can with the WYSIWYG editors. It's a lot quicker to hit a few keys then to drag your mouse all over the screen. If you use the excuse that design view is faster, you'll never get better with hand-coding.

    Also, if you don't understand the code you are handing over to the programmers... how the heck do you expect them to understand them? If you're creating the HTML, it's your job to understand it as well.

  16. #91
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    If I don't use tables (which I finally feel I have mastered), what do you suggest I do? I started using Layers (yes, in Dreameaver), and they never staid in the same place in different browsers.
    So where do you work? Are they looking for a new HTML/CSS/Flash/Layout guy? Too bad I do not live closer, or I could apply. (or maybe they need a poet)

    Na just kidding? Though seriously, if you do not know what to do other than use tables/DW layers it is really time to get a little more modern.

    Read the Jeffery Zeldman book mentioned above, or read the Sitepoint HTML(beta)/CSS reference(s)! It's time to come into the world of <divs>, <spans> and semantic markup, typed by hand in whatever editor is available.

  17. #92
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    the only time you want DW to auto generated code is when you cut up an email design in photoshop and then export it as html/images. When you edit the template in DW you still need to edit the premade table code.

    DW is not an essential tool. There are plenty of open source IDE's available. I recommend ****ing with Eclipse.

  18. #93
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Sounds like you don't know what your doing in the simplest of forms and for that I would probably get rid of you and find someone who does have that knowledge and would be able to work well with the programmers. Unless your a spectacular/one in a million designer…

    Using Dreamweaver to create table layouts and modifying them is inefficient and shows you know very little about the html and css aspect without a crutch. If your employer is willing to keep you while having you learn these things then you should take that opportunity and quit whining.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelvarWorld View Post
    People still charge clients for tables generated from Dreamweaver? Really? Is that ethical?

    I would argue that you're mixing design and implementation a little too closely in what you're saying. "Designs" are things done in Photoshop, Illustrator, pen and paper, etc. What if you designed mockup sites and passed them off to a coder to implement by hand? That's a pretty standard industry workflow, and it means the designers can focus on design and the coders can focus on code. There is definitely a stigma against using Dreamweaver to generate actual pages for websites. Most professors and all employers that I have had shun its use and stress the importance of hand coding. I'm with your boss 100% even if the reasoning is a little fuzzy. Making sites in DW instead of hand coding is a little 1990's.


    Drawing on the ground with a stick is better than notepad :P. At the very least get an editor with code colorization.
    Amen to that. Dreamweaver is not a designtool, Photoshop is. The design process of a website can and should be no more than creating an image. Skilled coders can easily make a valid (X)HTML layout from this image.

    It also allows you to implement your own SEO tricks. You might think Dreamweaver and such create SEO optimized pages, but when everyone optimizes their stuff in the same way - it's not optimized anymore!

    I'm not saying you should use Notepad, but you should be able to - if it were to be the only program you could use. Generally, HTML coders and programmers don't need anything more than an editor like CrimsonEditor.

    Plain text with colors and tabs are all you need.

  20. #95
    SitePoint Evangelist jonbey's Avatar
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    My approach is:

    1. Find an open source template that is close to the design I want - ideally one that has good feedback regarding neatness of code
    2. Open the files in PSPad
    3. Play with CSS, change headers, add images etc. until I get the desired result.


    Probably not the best approach re design, but ensures that the code is kept clean. I tried using NVU when I first built a page, and that created a ton of bad code. Once you have designed one page, then all you need is a text editor anyway.

    No doubt there are some good things in Dreamweaver, but is it really needed now that there are so may free templates that can be modified to suit your own needs?

  21. #96
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    Boss is always right. You have to learn another tool!

  22. #97
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    vim = emacs > textmate > any other text editor created on earth

    Much props to gurus like AutisticCuckoo who keep using it to this day, I'm forever thankful for this ancient yet modern godly piece of technology which is far more productive and efficient when taken the time to learn than anything else thanks to the power of modal editing, and 100&#37; customizability, as well as native unix compatability so I can hook it up with unix methods for even greater efficiency. Oh I remember the times when I was a sad, slow, unproductive coder using programs such as e, DW, et cetera suffering on Windows.

    I recommend it for anyone who's already a speed demon typist (130ish here), as dropping the mouse makes you so much more efficient and after a couple years, or maybe even a couple months depending on how fast you learn if you show this off to anyone they'd be amazed at the godlike speed with which you edit text files

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulScratch View Post
    vim = emacs > textmate > any other text editor created on earth

    Much props to gurus like AutisticCuckoo who keep using it to this day, I'm forever thankful for this ancient yet modern godly piece of technology which is far more productive and efficient when taken the time to learn than anything else thanks to the power of modal editing, and 100% customizability, as well as native unix compatability so I can hook it up with unix methods for even greater efficiency. Oh I remember the times when I was a sad, slow, unproductive coder using programs such as e, DW, et cetera suffering on Windows.

    I recommend it for anyone who's already a speed demon typist (130ish here), as dropping the mouse makes you so much more efficient and after a couple years, or maybe even a couple months depending on how fast you learn if you show this off to anyone they'd be amazed at the godlike speed with which you edit text files
    I've never been able to use vi very well. In my Uni classes, we were supposed to use vi, but even after 3 weeks of trying to learn it, I got frustrated trying to do the simplest of tasks. I use Textpad and DW both, and I am very, very fast with them. I don't understand how you can work without a mouse!

    I am constantly working with multiple documents opened at once (in a tabbed interface), and reusing code between them. Also, search and replace across selected text, selected document, open documents, selected directories and defined "sites" is huge sometimes. Creating one time use regular expressions in the command line is ridiculous definitely not an efficient use of time (but if ever needed, may text editors still offer that).
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  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard
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    I would suggest you ask her to show you examples of bloated/bad code she is referring to that she got from you. Then you would know exactly what she is talking about. You'll be able to see if you can spot more such areas and hand-code those areas before they get to her. Then you'll get to use DW and she'll get her code the way she likes it.

  25. #100
    SitePoint Guru
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    Yes I am talking about ASP.NET.....
    If your shop has switched to ASP.net, you're screwed.

    Visual Studio uses .aspx file extensions and the programmers have full control. Your work is either Visual Studio compliant or your work is a liability.

    Once a shop has invested in, (is infected by), Visual Studio, it's only a matter of time before use of other IDE's die.

    If you persist in taking a stand on using Dreamweaver, your next stand will likely be in the unemployment line.


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