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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Angry Boss say "No More Dreamweaver?"

    I am upset. Someone told me my boss said he doesn't want us to use Dreamweaver anymore! That is insane! Dreamweaver is an important designing tool, and a powerful one at that! I have been having problems with my programmers all because of the issues between an HTML Dreamweaver file and a Microsoft Visual Studio ASP file. The problem is NOT Dreamweaver, the problem is what we are doing with the files. Do you agree that saying a designer can't use Dreamweaver anymore is a gross error? Or does it really matter? I hate to have to fight him on this. But I don't want anyone making decisions out of ignorance either! By illuminating Dreamweaver would be to slow down the design process significantly!

  2. #2
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    First make sure that someone is correct...ask your boss.

  3. #3
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    What is this issue about? Does your boss want you to switch from Dreamweaver to Visual Studio?

  4. #4
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Not using DW is not a gross error.
    Using DW is not a gross error.

    Is your boss part of the development team?
    If he is not you should have some say in this.

    What exactly is the issue between how DW handles files and your ASP files?
    Can you talk to your programmers about this and sort it out? Maybe they have some concerns that you do not know about yet.

  5. #5
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    There is nothing that can be done in any other web editor that can't be done in Dreamweaver and so all that ceasing to use Dreamweaver will do is to slow work down while everyone learns the replacement editor.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue. The issue is that my programming coworker does not understand fully what I am giving him/her! My coworker even has arguments with the other programmer because she does not understand the JavaScript! So it's not my problem, it's his/here lack of understanding!

    One responder is right. By having me as a designer switch from Dreamweaver to Visual Studio, it will throw a big wrench in the productivity of the jobs I do. I am NOT about to hand code this stuff when I can do the work twice as fast with Dreamweaver. This is so unfair! They are leveraging these two designers and throwing me out to dry! This is being done out of pure ignorance!

    ASP can just as easily be done in Dreamweaver as it can be in Visual Studio, can it not? So why not do it in Dreameaver. After all, Dreamweaver works smoother with the entire Abobe family of products.

    I can see I have a war ahead of me.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    ASP and HTML Horror?

    Hello,
    I am having a nightmare of a time working with a programmer. I am giving him .html files from Dreamweaver and he is editing them in Visual Studio ASP. He is saying that the Dreamweaver is putting unnecessary code inn the html. I agree that there might be some unneeded html tags, as well as embedded css tags, but I truly feel it's the person's lack of knowledge of html.

    Are there known issues with taking html code from dreamweaver and copying and pasting it into ASP Visual Studio? Will the problem stop if I code HTML in Visual Studio? Or is HTML just HTML? I don't want to hand code. I am a a designer and know HTML pretty darn well. But to not use Dreamweaver it insane.

    Would it be too much to program the ASP in Dreamweaver?

    Do you see a solution to this?
    Thanks

  8. #8
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue.
    I'm going to assume that this is the issue
    Dreamweaver is fully capable of writing error 'free' code, it's up to you. The generated code is *very* customizable. Try to listen to your coworker. I don't say this to be a smartass, but sometimes it helps if you try to understand where people are coming from.

    She might not be directly opposed to Dreamweaver, but more so towards invalid code. You can't blame DW for this. To me it sounds like this would be a geat opportunity to learn how to handcode HTML/CSS.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    I have to agree with your co-workers. Nothing better than 10 fingers and notepad...

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    I'm going to assume that this is the issue
    To me it sounds like this would be a geat opportunity to learn how to handcode HTML/CSS.
    Like I said, I would have no problem at all learning to hard code, just as long as my superiors don't mind the prolonging of the completion of the projects!
    I son don't see the hard me me creating the tables in Dreamweaver and edititing the HTML like I always have.

    Are you saying that it would not matter if we did this work stricktly in Dreamweaver, that is it my HTML skills that are the problem?

    Don't forget, Adobe Dreamweaver is already built to handle the transactions with Adobe Photoshop, Flash etc.. much easier than any other application. So why not use Dreamweaver to begin with if we are going to use the others aw well.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    Not using DW is not a gross error.
    Using DW is not a gross error.
    Oh man that's FUNNY! true but FUNNY!

    Personally if I were the boss there would be non of EITHER of those IDEs, don't know which is worse

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Like I said, I would have no problem at all learning to hard code, just as long as my superiors don't mind the prolonging of the completion of the projects!
    Once you do it for a while and build up a library of code snippets you can bang out sites even faster than you do now, trust me I do it every day.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Member
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    He's correct and there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.

    "but I truly feel it's the person's lack of knowledge of html."
    sounds more like your lack of knowledge to me. He's the programmer, not you, listen to him
    E-Commerce Development
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  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard Darren884's Avatar
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    You need to be an *** and start doing your work slower because having Dreamweaver saves a lot of time. Tell your co-worker she needs to loosen up a little bit and she needs to take in account that shes working with a designer. Dreamweaver in most areas produces good code and is great for editing programming files.

    Also for the people that tout they use only Notepad try using it when you have to work on over 50 different sites per day.
    Have a good day.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Wizard
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    An IDE is a productivity tool. It should never replace skills; that is, you should always be able to hand-code the exact same html/css as you use DW to generate for you. Many developers/designers who never used DW (or just used it casually) see it as a point'n'click and drag'n'drop code generation tool. While you can certainly use it that way the real power of DW comes from the powerful feedback, visualizations, code completion etc.

    But going to Visual Studio may not be such a big deal for you. I think that you'll find that many of the latest additions to DW CS3 and CS4 have been shamelessly borrowed from Visual Studio 2005 and 2008, such as JavaScript intellisense, the CSS rules blotter etc.

    Visual Studio definately have better integration with ASP.NET (even though you wrote ASP i assume you didn't mean classic ASP as nobody should use that anymore). Especially if your site leverages advanced features such as navigation, master pages, and/or themes/skins. Also the resusability/component features are much better supported.

    With VS2008 I have found that I practically never feel compelled to use DW any more, even for the more html and css centric work.

  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren884 View Post
    Also for the people that tout they use only Notepad try using it when you have to work on over 50 different sites per day.
    That's actually an area where DW shines. Once you've set up the sites correctly, editing, uploading etc. is a breeze.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren884 View Post
    You need to be an *** and start doing your work slower because having Dreamweaver saves a lot of time. Tell your co-worker she needs to loosen up a little bit and she needs to take in account that shes working with a designer. Dreamweaver in most areas produces good code and is great for editing programming files.

    Also for the people that tout they use only Notepad try using it when you have to work on over 50 different sites per day.
    You make an excellent point! And you have to see the ugly primitive websites these two "programmers" were putting out. They were horrendous! Ugly as hell, and I kid you NOT! At least I am putting out half way decent designed websites. I am sure to improve my coding skills. But not at the expensive of hand coding in notepad or Visual Basic! I love it when people say they hand code all the time. Then I look at their websites and shake my head in disbelief.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue. The issue is that my programming coworker does not understand fully what I am giving him/her! My coworker even has arguments with the other programmer because she does not understand the JavaScript! So it's not my problem, it's his/here lack of understanding!
    I have to agree with your programming colleague here. I use Dreamweaver too. So I am familiar with this issue she is referring to. Dreamweaver is not a replacement for good coding. If you are building pages entirely through the WYSIWYG, it will create tons of garbage CSS code. The Javascript it puts in is also excessive and overloaded. It sounds like you are relying on Dreamweaver far to much. Its OK if you lay out the framework in code view and use the wysiwyg a little as a formatting guide. It can be helpful. The file management tools can also be helpful, etc...

  19. #19
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    <removed />
    Last edited by DaveMaxwell; Dec 17, 2008 at 08:41. Reason: removed tasteless joke....

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard
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    If I was working with you, the only thing I would accept is 1 zip file. In this zip file, you have html/css/maybe javascript. When I open up index.html, I expect to see the entire layout and where things go and the color scheme from your css.

    As a developer, I will not use any of your files but use it as a reference. When coder takes your code it will be split among different files and what not. So, my point is that I don't care what you use to create those files. I think if the developers are using your stuff "as is" may need to re-evaluate their skills.

  21. #21
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    If you truly like building websites learn to code by hand. If I were the other person I would probably not like it either. Use notepad for a few months then go back to dreamweaver code view. You will be faster than the design view crap.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Evangelist bals28mjk's Avatar
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    She might have gotten fed up with all the poor code being generated by dreamweaver. I don't use any of dreamweaver's pre-built code (or design view), but rather as a syntax highlighter amongst other things. It's more of a convenience than anything else, but if too many of your co-workers are producing errors with its pre-built code, I guess one way to go about it would be to cut all ties.

    If she's already made up her mind that dreamweaver is evil, it's probably best not to argue. Tell her you don't like the generated code either and you mostly use it for the interface. Then say you would say you would never use the generated code unless you customized it and it was error free. Then do it.

  23. #23
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darren884 View Post
    Also for the people that tout they use only Notepad try using it when you have to work on over 50 different sites per day.
    Not a major issue.But times have changed I have to admit.
    Coding my first sites in 1995, I had only books and notepad to do so. In fact, I never used anything else, even when software came out. I was just comfortable typing...

    The advantage (at least for me) is I know where and when I do a mistake and can correct it in no time just by viewing the site. Which might not be the case for people who do not have the code in mind, as I had to correct sites years ago from people making sites with softwares...
    But I guess we are all getting familiar with our way of having things done...

    Now, I'm not in the field anymore. The younger kids do a site for grand'pa for a couple of bucks and 3 candy bars.
    But when I need a site for myself, I still code by hand and can have a site in 1-2 hours...

  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I love it when people say they hand code all the time. Then I look at their websites and shake my head in disbelief.
    Coders are not designers...
    Some ugly sites are making more money than some nice ones because well coded and high in SERP. An example: beautifull flash presentations that goes nowhere in SERP...

    Well, all this to say that I'm a fervent supporter of hand coding :-)

  25. #25
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    I use dreamweaver but barely use the wysiwyg editor. I only use it as a reference to make sure my code is looking the way it should graphically.

    For those saying it's a handicap, because you should be able to code in notepad... that's ridiculous. Why would you ever code c++, java, or anything in notepad? Notepad is expedient for making quick edits but not a valid alternative.

    So for those that keep dropping "notepad"... seriously... come on.

    My 2 cents.


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