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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Angry Boss say "No More Dreamweaver?"

    I am upset. Someone told me my boss said he doesn't want us to use Dreamweaver anymore! That is insane! Dreamweaver is an important designing tool, and a powerful one at that! I have been having problems with my programmers all because of the issues between an HTML Dreamweaver file and a Microsoft Visual Studio ASP file. The problem is NOT Dreamweaver, the problem is what we are doing with the files. Do you agree that saying a designer can't use Dreamweaver anymore is a gross error? Or does it really matter? I hate to have to fight him on this. But I don't want anyone making decisions out of ignorance either! By illuminating Dreamweaver would be to slow down the design process significantly!

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    First make sure that someone is correct...ask your boss.

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    What is this issue about? Does your boss want you to switch from Dreamweaver to Visual Studio?

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    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Not using DW is not a gross error.
    Using DW is not a gross error.

    Is your boss part of the development team?
    If he is not you should have some say in this.

    What exactly is the issue between how DW handles files and your ASP files?
    Can you talk to your programmers about this and sort it out? Maybe they have some concerns that you do not know about yet.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue. The issue is that my programming coworker does not understand fully what I am giving him/her! My coworker even has arguments with the other programmer because she does not understand the JavaScript! So it's not my problem, it's his/here lack of understanding!

    One responder is right. By having me as a designer switch from Dreamweaver to Visual Studio, it will throw a big wrench in the productivity of the jobs I do. I am NOT about to hand code this stuff when I can do the work twice as fast with Dreamweaver. This is so unfair! They are leveraging these two designers and throwing me out to dry! This is being done out of pure ignorance!

    ASP can just as easily be done in Dreamweaver as it can be in Visual Studio, can it not? So why not do it in Dreameaver. After all, Dreamweaver works smoother with the entire Abobe family of products.

    I can see I have a war ahead of me.

  6. #6
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue.
    I'm going to assume that this is the issue
    Dreamweaver is fully capable of writing error 'free' code, it's up to you. The generated code is *very* customizable. Try to listen to your coworker. I don't say this to be a smartass, but sometimes it helps if you try to understand where people are coming from.

    She might not be directly opposed to Dreamweaver, but more so towards invalid code. You can't blame DW for this. To me it sounds like this would be a geat opportunity to learn how to handcode HTML/CSS.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Zealot codythebest's Avatar
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    I have to agree with your co-workers. Nothing better than 10 fingers and notepad...

  8. #8
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codythebest View Post
    I have to agree with your co-workers. Nothing better than 10 fingers and notepad...
    I dont even need all 10 fingers! or notepad!



    http://xkcd.com/378/

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    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    I'm going to assume that this is the issue
    To me it sounds like this would be a geat opportunity to learn how to handcode HTML/CSS.
    Like I said, I would have no problem at all learning to hard code, just as long as my superiors don't mind the prolonging of the completion of the projects!
    I son don't see the hard me me creating the tables in Dreamweaver and edititing the HTML like I always have.

    Are you saying that it would not matter if we did this work stricktly in Dreamweaver, that is it my HTML skills that are the problem?

    Don't forget, Adobe Dreamweaver is already built to handle the transactions with Adobe Photoshop, Flash etc.. much easier than any other application. So why not use Dreamweaver to begin with if we are going to use the others aw well.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Like I said, I would have no problem at all learning to hard code, just as long as my superiors don't mind the prolonging of the completion of the projects!
    Once you do it for a while and build up a library of code snippets you can bang out sites even faster than you do now, trust me I do it every day.

  11. #11
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I would have no problem at all learning to hard code....
    ....me creating the tables in Dreamweaver and edititing the HTML like I always have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centauri View Post
    Sounds like you are using the very techniques that have probably produced 50% of the rubbish coded sites on the net....
    ....As an html coder it should be your job to keep up with all the latest techniques and standards in the field, and a thorough knowledge of html and css syntax and semantics should be mandatory. Time to ditch the non-semantic table layouts and unnecessary javascript produced by letting software do your work, and do it properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Okay, it's learning time. If I don't use tables (which I finally feel I have mastered), what do you suggest I do? I started using Layers (yes, in Dreameaver), and they never staid in the same place in different browsers.

    Another Designer,
    There's a thread for CSS Beginners in the Sitepoint CSS Forum that would be worth your while to take a look at. Here's a cross-posted excerpt for your convenience:
    Quote Originally Posted by D9r View Post
    w3c: HTML Homepage -- aka, The Fine Manual
    w3c: CSS Homepage -- another The Fine Manual
    sitepoint: CSS Book Advice -- thread on book recommendations
    sitepoint: CSS FAQ - How to...... -- most excellent list of Frequently Asked Questions (with answers)
    satzansatz: hasLayout -- all about hasLayout, the cause of 99% of problems in ie
    pie: Conditional Comments -- how to use conditional comments for cross-browser code
    sitepoint: XHTML Tutorials -- articles on xhtml, css's other half
    sitepoint: CSS Tutorials -- tons of css articles
    search-this: CSS Articles -- advanced css articles
    sitepoint: 3 equalizing columns layout -- world's longest thread on 3 column layouts (62+ pages)
    pmob: CSS Examples -- by our very own css guru, PaulOB
    plus here, of course: the CSS Forum
    For your situation, I'd suggest start by studying these six:
    1) Bulletproof HTML: 37 Steps to Perfect Markup
    2) Breaking Out of the Box With CSS Layouts
    3) HTML Utopia: Designing Without Tables Using CSS, Chapter 5: Building the Skeleton
    4) CSS FAQ - How to......
    5) CSS Examples
    6) CSS Forum

    Good luck!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    I'm going to assume that this is the issue
    Dreamweaver is fully capable of writing error 'free' code, it's up to you. The generated code is *very* customizable. Try to listen to your coworker. I don't say this to be a smartass, but sometimes it helps if you try to understand where people are coming from.

    She might not be directly opposed to Dreamweaver, but more so towards invalid code. You can't blame DW for this. To me it sounds like this would be a geat opportunity to learn how to handcode HTML/CSS.
    Couldn't agree more. If you are relying on application generated code instead of hand written code this might be the core of the problem. Either way, find out exactly what the programmer wants and tell then you are amenable to change the way your are writing your code.

    This seems like the most reasonable way for you to not only keep your application but improve your coding skills as well.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue. The issue is that my programming coworker does not understand fully what I am giving him/her! My coworker even has arguments with the other programmer because she does not understand the JavaScript! So it's not my problem, it's his/here lack of understanding!
    I have to agree with your programming colleague here. I use Dreamweaver too. So I am familiar with this issue she is referring to. Dreamweaver is not a replacement for good coding. If you are building pages entirely through the WYSIWYG, it will create tons of garbage CSS code. The Javascript it puts in is also excessive and overloaded. It sounds like you are relying on Dreamweaver far to much. Its OK if you lay out the framework in code view and use the wysiwyg a little as a formatting guide. It can be helpful. The file management tools can also be helpful, etc...

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard webcosmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    ASP can just as easily be done in Dreamweaver as it can be in Visual Studio, can it not?
    Not really. Visual Studio got way lot more things to handle the programming aspects.

    Now here is the fun part. I had similar problem with the designers I used to work with. They were using DW. My problem was exactly same as your programmer, lots of unnecessary codes injected by DW. That also increases the file size. Plus its always hard to understand somebody else's code. Eventually I told them I will code the HTML myself.

    ASP Programmers do not do straight copy paste of html always. They change lot of tags to ASP tags so they can apply dynamic behavior.

    I don't think its big of a issue using DW as long as you and your programmer understand each other. I would say talk to her, ask her how she like to have the codes. May be a small example would help there. Then try that way. After all its a group effort you know.

    And btw, you should also learn to hand code. Lot of companies ask for that on job description.

  15. #15
    SitePoint Member cymrojazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. .
    What sort of errors? non w3c compliance issues?

    You can always W3C validate your code using Dreamweaver ( to some extent) any number of sites or products- after a while you start checking in code view and spot the mistakes before you even have to validate and you remember the common repeated Dreamweaver omissions.

    Also re hand coding - there's little difference in using code view in Dreamweaver and using Notepad - oh apart from the handy drop down menus, line numbers, tag selector menu, snippets, 'colour coded' code / tags... ... ... actually come to think of there's quite a bit of help but doing it in code view keeps you in control and with instant multiple browser preview etc etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    When I give my co worker the HTML she gets upset because she says that Dreamweaver puts too many errors into the HTML code. While there might be a few errors and unneeded embedded CSS code, it is not the issue. The issue is that my programming coworker does not understand fully what I am giving him/her! My coworker even has arguments with the other programmer because she does not understand the JavaScript! So it's not my problem, it's his/here lack of understanding!

    One responder is right. By having me as a designer switch from Dreamweaver to Visual Studio, it will throw a big wrench in the productivity of the jobs I do. I am NOT about to hand code this stuff when I can do the work twice as fast with Dreamweaver. This is so unfair! They are leveraging these two designers and throwing me out to dry! This is being done out of pure ignorance!

    ASP can just as easily be done in Dreamweaver as it can be in Visual Studio, can it not? So why not do it in Dreameaver. After all, Dreamweaver works smoother with the entire Abobe family of products.

    I can see I have a war ahead of me.
    well your co worker is right if you create your html code throught design mode, but if you create html using dreamweaver because what you seek is autocomplete from dreamweaver your co worker is wrong

  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirie View Post
    well your co worker is right if you create your html code throught design mode, but if you create html using dreamweaver because what you seek is autocomplete from dreamweaver your co worker is wrong
    What do you mean by autocomplete?

  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    Not using DW is not a gross error.
    Using DW is not a gross error.
    Oh man that's FUNNY! true but FUNNY!

    Personally if I were the boss there would be non of EITHER of those IDEs, don't know which is worse

  19. #19
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    There is nothing that can be done in any other web editor that can't be done in Dreamweaver and so all that ceasing to use Dreamweaver will do is to slow work down while everyone learns the replacement editor.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    There is nothing that can be done in any other web editor that can't be done in Dreamweaver
    Okay … I'm not an expert on Dreamweaver (I use it reluctantly at the office because I must). How do I replace all instances of 'foo' with 'bar', but only on lines that start with a digit?

    That's a single command in Vim:
    Code:
    :g/^[0-9]/s/foo/bar/g
    So if your statement is true, there must be an equivalent feature in DW, but I can't find it. We use DW MX 2004, though. Perhaps it was added in a later version?
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    Okay … I'm not an expert on Dreamweaver (I use it reluctantly at the office because I must). How do I replace all instances of 'foo' with 'bar', but only on lines that start with a digit?

    That's a single command in Vim:
    Code:
    :g/^[0-9]/s/foo/bar/g
    So if your statement is true, there must be an equivalent feature in DW, but I can't find it. We use DW MX 2004, though. Perhaps it was added in a later version?
    There is an option to "use regular expression" in the find and replace dialog in CS3. I can't remember if it was there in earlier versions.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
    There is an option to "use regular expression" in the find and replace dialog in CS3. I can't remember if it was there in earlier versions.
    I know, but I can't get it to work. I tried finding ^(\d.*)foo and replacing it with $1bar (which isn't fully equivalent, but would work if you applied it repeatedly), but DW says it doesn't find anything. And yes, I did check the 'Use regular expression' box.

    My point was that there are far more powerful editors than DW, and I was challenging Stephen's claim that DW could do everything all other editors can do. Even if there's a workaround for this specific issue, there are other powerful commands in, e.g., Vim that DW will never be able to match.

    For instance, I don't think you can show multiple files in a single tab in DW, or use multiple copy/paste buffers.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  23. #23
    Function Curry'er JimmyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    Okay … I'm not an expert on Dreamweaver (I use it reluctantly at the office because I must). How do I replace all instances of 'foo' with 'bar', but only on lines that start with a digit?

    That's a single command in Vim:
    Code:
    :g/^[0-9]/s/foo/bar/g
    So if your statement is true, there must be an equivalent feature in DW, but I can't find it. We use DW MX 2004, though. Perhaps it was added in a later version?
    FIND: ((\r|\n)\d+.*?)(Foo)
    REPLACE: $1Bar
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  24. #24
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    ASP and HTML Horror?

    Hello,
    I am having a nightmare of a time working with a programmer. I am giving him .html files from Dreamweaver and he is editing them in Visual Studio ASP. He is saying that the Dreamweaver is putting unnecessary code inn the html. I agree that there might be some unneeded html tags, as well as embedded css tags, but I truly feel it's the person's lack of knowledge of html.

    Are there known issues with taking html code from dreamweaver and copying and pasting it into ASP Visual Studio? Will the problem stop if I code HTML in Visual Studio? Or is HTML just HTML? I don't want to hand code. I am a a designer and know HTML pretty darn well. But to not use Dreamweaver it insane.

    Would it be too much to program the ASP in Dreamweaver?

    Do you see a solution to this?
    Thanks

  25. #25
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    He's correct and there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.

    "but I truly feel it's the person's lack of knowledge of html."
    sounds more like your lack of knowledge to me. He's the programmer, not you, listen to him
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