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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestartech View Post
    css is a nightmare to maintain in my experience, tables in dreamweaver still a lot easier
    If you would stop relying on "design view" in Dreamweaver you wouldn't have that problem!

    Sorry kids but ANY WYSIWYG editor shows you don't really understand what is really happening behind the scenes. Design View is no less than "amateur hour" in the web dev industry.... period

    Quote Originally Posted by jemple View Post
    I admit I still use tables. CSS is great and when you are being creative divs rock. But if its something that requires, cuts, fixes, hacks and hours of emotional pain to make it look the same in IE as other browsers, I just slam it in tables.
    That's because you haven't taken the time to REALLY learn CSS, if you took that time you would be banging out CSS driven, tableless sites that DONT break in IE faster than you could ever do a tabled site and I guarantee you redesign time will be cut in half.

    Quote Originally Posted by poizn View Post
    Funny haha, I had a quick look at the source for the sitepoint forums, and its all made with tables...
    I must say I'm a little shocked. The site where I had learned so much from, especially regarding CSS design, is its self built with tables... (the front page, is CSS)
    Just thought I'd point that out.
    Well you are missing the one GLARING point here! This forum software was NOT built by anyone here! It is vBulletin which IMO is one of the worst pieces of junk ever put onto the market!

    Don't throw eggs at Sitepoint before you know what you are talking about ... you want to throw eggs at someone? Go to the source of the problem: http://www.vbulletin.com/

  2. #27
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    I use tables in wordpress. Does the trick for me...most of the time

  3. #28
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    I think its something to do with fear of learning something new for some reason. As dalton and I said, with experience you'll avoid problems in IE.

    Also... Has anyone EVER seen somebody sticking up for designing with tables who truly understands CSS?

  4. #29
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    CSS for layout is so much easier and quicker for setting up the layout of a site containing several thousand pages than using tables for layout (especially when it comes to changing the appearance of the pages) that I don't know why anyone would spend so many hundreds of times as long to do it with tables as they could be spending doing it with CSS. After all the next time you want to change the layout of your site would you rather spend half an hour to change one CSS file and test or spend several hundred hours rewriting the tables in thousands of HTML pages. I know which I'd prefer. Besides which if your pages use tables for layout then converting them to use CSS will not take much longer than it would take to make your next layout change anyway.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle W View Post
    I think its something to do with fear of learning something new for some reason.
    Here! Here! That is exactly where the problems lies! You can look at it another way..........when you learn Flash for instance, you don't really understand what flash can do until you learn it's programming language....Actionscript!

    But if you brought Flash CS3, you wouldn't start coding in Actionscript 1.0 would ya?? Especially when you hear how much better AS2 is or even better still.... Actionscript 3.0!
    Our web browsers have evolved just as flash and most other software and technologies have and the browser is our main tool....our IDE so to speak!

    What you've got to realize is that CSS has been around since 1996 and has become a reliable and incredibly easy to learn language!!! It's a pity people don't at least give it a chance. To be honest i am shocked that people are still using tables for layout.

  6. #31
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    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestartech View Post
    css is a nightmare to maintain in my experience, tables in dreamweaver still a lot easier
    That's true when you don't understand what you are doing. As you know more, it gets easier and the advantages are more obvious. This has been said a thousand times, but it doesn't make it less true... tables were created for tabular data, and that's the kind of content that should go there.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    That's true when you don't understand what you are doing. As you know more, it gets easier and the advantages are more obvious. This has been said a thousand times, but it doesn't make it less true... tables were created for tabular data, and that's the kind of content that should go there.
    ...and we will a new thread go down this road again within a few weeks. I'll sum it up for those who have maybe dipped in the pool of CSS a bit and still like tables.

    CSS honestly can be a pain in the butt to learn, because we all know that occasionally (until we understand whats going on) we have to mess around with compatibility problems. Tables work. However its the entry level standard. A mastered table design can not come close to the perks of a table-less design.

    So again, once you get past that mile stone of CSS being "a pain in the butt", CSS is the only logical way to go for a designer.
    Last edited by Kyle W; Dec 23, 2008 at 16:49. Reason: Censorship replacement with "butt" ;-)

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle W View Post
    ...and we will a new thread go down this road again within a few weeks. I'll sum it up for those who have maybe dipped in the pool of CSS a bit and still like tables.

    CSS honestly can be a pain in the butt to learn, because we all know that occasionally (until we understand whats going on) we have to mess around with compatibility problems. Tables work. However its the entry level standard. A mastered table design can not come close to the perks of a table-less design.

    So again, once you get past that mile stone of CSS being "a pain in the butt", CSS is the only logical way to go for a designer.
    Very well said! Maybe some day they will 'get it'

  9. #34
    SitePoint Zealot ozone88's Avatar
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    CSS for sure much easier to update and change particularly when dealing with multiple pages. It may be a little more work at first but well worth it down the track.

    I'm blessing the day I changed my pages over open one page, change it around, save and bingo job done so much easier and neater.
    Catherine

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jemple View Post
    I admit I still use tables. CSS is great and when you are being creative divs rock. But if its something that requires, cuts, fixes, hacks and hours of emotional pain to make it look the same in IE as other browsers, I just slam it in tables.
    For me, personally, this is dead on!!

    I learned web design quite a while ago, and once the new wave of languages bombarded the scene, i lost track of what to follow... so i just stuck with design.
    I dabbled in web for a bit here n there... making a few personal sites, nothing crazy, but i always wrote my code in tables.

    In the past 3 months, i have begun learning css and have to say, there things that i LOVE about it, and things that i don't - probably, because i don't know it as well as html, but i'm trying to advance with the ages.

    I tend to now, use a combination of both tables and css while i cross over, and while the css expert will tell me that it can be done better - this seems to work out perfectly for me right now... just like jemple said - when i'm in a spot, and i can't figure it out and realize that i'm now spending too much time - i slam a table in the div and BAM - there it is- exactly what i wanted.

    This has also made me more aware of other site's page sources, and i see a lot of sites doing the same thing... maybe this is because they are older sites, and have yet to make their own transition, bt this seems to be very common place still on the web.

    The point about search engines respondng to css better has me curious though, as this is a much bigger job than the web site itself.

    Can you please elaborate on this a little further please as to how the search engines benefit more.

    Thanks

  11. #36
    SitePoint Guru glenngould's Avatar
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    Can you please elaborate on this a little further please as to how the search engines benefit more.
    With CSS, presentational markup is removed from the document, leading a higher content/markup ratio in your document which is good for any search engine as far as I know.
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  12. #37
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    thank you glenngould...
    ...please explain more about ''content/markup ratio''
    i understand the concept, but do you know more... such as the value to the search engines...etc..

    also..
    ... in my research, i did find this helpful little snippet as to the negative effect tables (and even javascripts) can have on SEO...
    please read below:


    When you use tables on the key pages and if some columns have descriptions while others have numbers, it is possible that this may push your keywords down the page. Search engines break up the table and read them for the content the columns have. The first column is read first, then the next and so on. Thus if the first column had numbers, and the next one had useful descriptions, the positioning of these descriptions will suffer. The strategy is to avoid using such tables near the top of the key pages. Large sections of Java scripts also will have the same effect on the search engines. The HTML part will be pushed down. Thus again, place your long Javascripts lower down on key pages

    hope that helps somebody

  13. #38
    SitePoint Guru glenngould's Avatar
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    ...please explain more about ''content/markup ratio''
    I found an ongoing discussion about it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by dc dalton
    ...Have you ever noticed from searching that things like these old text only posts always seem to show up at the top of many rankings .... it's code / content ratio plain and simple.
    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...0&postcount=19
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  14. #39
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    CSS can control all the style of websites, especially the large number of websites

  15. #40
    SitePoint Addict aguroyz's Avatar
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    I heard before that pages w/ no tables are faster to load...

    Not quite sure though if its true...

  16. #41
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    They can be - and most often are.

  17. #42
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    When I started my 1st site, I found table was not the solution coz I could not control with my learned syntax. When I transferred to use CSS, it was really time-consuming. But now for me it's a lot faster to design CSS layouts than table ones using the tools I developed.

    It's not nightmare but enjoying.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Addict aguroyz's Avatar
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    Yep CSS should be your 1st resort and tables last...
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by aguroyz View Post
    Yep CSS should be your 1st resort and tables last...
    There's never a reason to resort to tables, except for tabular data, but we are talking about page layout and design.

  20. #45
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    I can think of a reason to use a table for layout. If the layout is tabular in nature - such as a schematic or a technical readout.

  21. #46
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    Please elaborate.

  22. #47
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle W View Post
    Please elaborate.
    Perhaps the simplest way to think of it is to turn on the borders of all your tables. Any that don't work with the border there shouldn't be tables.

    Another clue as to whether it is a table or not is whether or not there are column and/or row headings. If there are no headings for either then chances are it isn't a table.

    Tabular data (which is what tables are for) should have headings for either the rows or columns or both and should work fine with borders around all the cells.
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  23. #48
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    It's not just a matter of it being easier to update - with CSS you can do far more than you can with tables, i.e. getting content to wrap around 'cells', build multiple 'layers', etc. Too much to go into. Tables were originally designed to hold tabular data only. This was in the very early days of HTML - when page design was nothing more than word-processing mark-up. It was very inventive of those early pioneers. So we need to ask; are tables still needed if there are now better methods (CSS) for page layout? I personally would say that we should use CSS for layouts when possible.

    With CSS you can control the order in which the code within your page appears, which may not only improve your SEO (Search engine optimisation) by allowing for even distribution of (naturally occuring) keywords, but also help with accessibility software make sense of your content.

    In saying this, I still use tables to a certain degree in layouts. I have found no good (consistant across browsers and short and sweet) CSS method for placing a footer at the bottom of a page, even if the content is a little sparse. For this I use a single column, three cell design (top, middle and bottom). Within each cell, the rest of the layout is done via CSS.

    So, what I am saying in a nut shell is this: Try to use CSS where possible for layout, else use tables, but sparingly. It's not a crime to use tables, we have to impliment whatever method works and works well to achieve our design goal.

  24. #49
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Just remember that usung tables for layout from the HTML breaks your page when it is viewed anywhere other than a computer screen. As more and more people are using handhelds to access the web your HTML table layouts will not work as you want for a growing fraction of your visitors.

    The solution could be to use CSS tables for your layour which are supported by all current browsers except for IE6 and IE7.
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  25. #50
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    I personally am a CSS fiend, once i learned it i forgot all about old school tables.

    Personally i wouldn't even use tables for what they're made for, I would just use CSS instead.


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