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  1. #1
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    Website Design with Marketing theory?

    Hi all,

    does anyone rate any good books / sites which focus on human behaviour, how people interact with websites etc.. or the principles around website marketing (creating more conversions to sale) in the traditional sense NOT Seo?

    I remember finding this amazing book that said where all the hot spots of a printed page where, it had colour theory, shape theory but it was all about printed material. I would like to find something similar but focused solely on the web?

    Any ideas welcome.

    Muchos Gracias
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    Get your Dinosoles now at skatesale.co.uk-But what are Dinosoles?
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  2. #2
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    I don't know if the "amazing book" is one of these, but I find the book Don't Make Me Think is good at describing the way the common Internet surfer goes through a site.

    I haven't read it yet, but the book Web Design for ROI seems like it would help you with the marketing portion.

    Both books can be found at Amazon.
    Terri Eades - Web/Graphic Designer - www.terrieades.com

  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard
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    > I remember finding this amazing book that said where all the hot spots of a printed page where, it had colour theory, shape theory but it was all about printed material. I would like to find something similar but focused solely on the web?

    it sounds like you think navigation, buttons, colours are the answer to your question -- you're assuming it's colours/shapes/style etc. rather than asking what has the biggest effect on sales. imo it ain't style. has it occurred to you that this kind of thing is surface stuff, and while it may have an effect to some extent, maybe more so in different situations, depending on what the site/company's all about, there may be other things a bit deeper/more-fundamental which generate sales in some way? like content? you know, old fashioned useful for humans stuff rather than decoration.

    i've often thought for some types of sites, a purposefully, or even better genuninely, amaturish design and production may have a more beneficial effect on sales than the super slick professional look. obviously very dependent on the situation, as always, apart from the benefit of useful content (what it says and does) i think.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Guru cyjetsu's Avatar
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    Well you are saying 2 different things there. For interaction, search for things like "human interaction with electronic interfaces" or human-digital psychology and such.

    For the marketing, well just buy some books about marketing. You should check out business/management marketing books, I have found internet marketing books generally relate more to seo etc and crap like "how to send an email", where as general business marketing books were great for learning marketing theory and intelligence on demand, market sectors, product/service delivery etc, which you can then analyse and apply to your internet business.

    I have not found any books on web marketing theory yet but I have not looked too hard yet. It should be very useful to get the general business marketing books and apply your knowledge of the internet to it, maybe write some notes for yourself about the web environment.

    I think I have not found many books specifically about internet marketing theory because it is really not that different from other marketing (conceptually). The real difference is access. Nothing can compete with the ease of access of the web and combined with the growth and evolution of the internet, it has enourmous market potential. I am sure most general marketing concepts can be applied to the web environment if you go about it the right way.

  5. #5
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    Johnyboy

    I think you mis understand what I said. It is not the style that I am questioning, nor the skin of a website but the fundamental layout theory of why things go where. The theory of placing different types of sales text where and how different visitors react and interact. I think I will look deeper at offline marketing theory as a starting point and then combine it with online technology. I just wondered if anyone else has already done this (which Im sure they would have). I guess tho, as technology changes at such a pace, and it becomes more assilimated by an ever growing and tech savvy user base, the marketing is likely to adapt as quickly?

    cheers for all your help.
    -------------------------
    Get your Dinosoles now at skatesale.co.uk-But what are Dinosoles?
    Dinosoles are simply shoes with dinosaur footprints on the sole.
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  6. #6
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    cyjetsu - cheers for your advice, much appreciated
    -------------------------
    Get your Dinosoles now at skatesale.co.uk-But what are Dinosoles?
    Dinosoles are simply shoes with dinosaur footprints on the sole.
    Official DinoGear!

  7. #7
    SitePoint Guru cyjetsu's Avatar
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    If you are looking for layout theory then you need to look for navigation and interface design. The layout of a site does not really depend that much on the market. The data/content on the site should be developed first and from there you develop the information architecture and wireframes of the site. There are no strict rules to layout, each website's layout is unique because each website's content should be unique. Content defines layout. Think about it from the visitor's point of view, what page will they land on, what information do you want visitors to see. It is not a simple task.

    If you are combining interface/layout design with marketing I think you should seperate the 2. There are some connections but really you should first define your market, then build your content/text/data for that market, then build the website interface using your content/text.

  8. #8
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    > define your market, then build your content/text/data for that market, then build the website interface using your content/text

    exactly. just to expand on that.

    - establish business's goal (the goal must be useful for some people otherwise it's not going to be a successful business)
    - align goal of website with business goal (i.e. make it the same if possible/applicable which i don't think there would any reason not to be able to)
    - within that context research people, of different types, who website-would-be-aimed-at/prospective-customers -- same people if business goal is same as website goal
    - make personas from (summaries of) research data on likely customers which allow you to use your research/found-data -- in particular with a view to being able to put yourself in the shoes of who you're aiming at
    - come up with many, many ideas for content, both in terms of what the website says and (especially imo) what the website does (e.g. if possible, allow people to do what the company does via the website -- a concrete example of that is amazon, but that's an easy one because they're a retailer. for companies which offers services, especially services which involve complicated interaction (e.g. an architects) that may not be possiblr and/or desirable but website-ising one part of the process of using hte company may be a good idea). come up with this content with a view to your personas made in previous step. an almost alturistic attitude is required here.
    - using logic, personas, and constraint of budget, cherry pick best bits from previous step
    - come up with some organisations and designs of those cherry picked bits
    - produce it

    i did not miss your point guru@dusza.co.uk i don't think. the part you're asking about misses everything that's important, doesn't involve the right attitude ("how can i make this website as useful as possible to prospective customer?"), the thinking/decision-making is nowhere near upstream in the whole process enough to make a website work marketing wise. if you're laying out and colouring (or whatever) something of little worth (which you will be if you haven't taken considerable steps to make sure you have good content) you're wasting your time because you're spending effort on something which has little worth. you need to make sure you're laying out and colouring something which might work. btw i studdied and worked as a graphic designer, and i can't stress how useless (visual/graphic) design alone is nearly always enough. making something look nice and be a nice layout is near useless for people in itself. it's entirely useless if what you're laying out nicely is of no use itself. basically content (functionality and words) far outweighs what you're asking about marketing-wise. and with the internet being useless comes to a real head, because bugger all people will use it! how does that fit into your marketing plan?; nobody using your website.

    see what i'm gettting at? your question itself is missing the point -- the question doesn't ask openly, what works marketing wise on a website?; you've answered that question yourself to a certain extent (incorrectly imo) by constraining the answer to visual/layout/organisation things -- you're assuming those things have a major impact on sales. alone they don't. they may have some after you've established some useful content of who your business is useful to. even then, design is not where it's at. once you've got good content, that generally dictates, by common sense, the organsiation/layout etc. of it i reckon. simplicity is always a good thing to head for.
    Last edited by johnyboy; Nov 25, 2008 at 11:00.

  9. #9
    SitePoint Addict dnordstrom's Avatar
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    I guarantee you that there are books about about marketing that has absolutely nothing to do with the web, that you will still find more useful than a pure website/internet marketing book. The principles still apply.

    But then again, I often do it myself. Looking for books specifically written for the web, I mean.
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  10. #10
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    johnny boy…

    interesting how all other replies to my post are not so heated nor arrogant.

    i have no interest in posts that are not helpful nor ones that ar plain rude. Your posts are rude. I suggest you dont post replies if you cant be civil.

    Well done for being a graphic designer. I too am a designer. I also run 2 successful businesses and was looking for genuinely helpful advice from site point users, not users that simply want to rant.

    Why bother? Seriously?

    Thanks to everyone else who have shared useful and helpful points, much appreciated : )



    Quote Originally Posted by johnyboy View Post
    > define your market, then build your content/text/data for that market, then build the website interface using your content/text

    exactly. just to expand on that.

    - establish business's goal (the goal must be useful for some people otherwise it's not going to be a successful business)
    - align goal of website with business goal (i.e. make it the same if possible/applicable which i don't think there would any reason not to be able to)
    - within that context research people, of different types, who website-would-be-aimed-at/prospective-customers -- same people if business goal is same as website goal
    - make personas from (summaries of) research data on likely customers which allow you to use your research/found-data -- in particular with a view to being able to put yourself in the shoes of who you're aiming at
    - come up with many, many ideas for content, both in terms of what the website says and (especially imo) what the website does (e.g. if possible, allow people to do what the company does via the website -- a concrete example of that is amazon, but that's an easy one because they're a retailer. for companies which offers services, especially services which involve complicated interaction (e.g. an architects) that may not be possiblr and/or desirable but website-ising one part of the process of using hte company may be a good idea). come up with this content with a view to your personas made in previous step. an almost alturistic attitude is required here.
    - using logic, personas, and constraint of budget, cherry pick best bits from previous step
    - come up with some organisations and designs of those cherry picked bits
    - produce it

    i did not miss your point guru@dusza.co.uk i don't think. the part you're asking about misses everything that's important, doesn't involve the right attitude ("how can i make this website as useful as possible to prospective customer?"), the thinking/decision-making is nowhere near upstream in the whole process enough to make a website work marketing wise. if you're laying out and colouring (or whatever) something of little worth (which you will be if you haven't taken considerable steps to make sure you have good content) you're wasting your time because you're spending effort on something which has little worth. you need to make sure you're laying out and colouring something which might work. btw i studdied and worked as a graphic designer, and i can't stress how useless (visual/graphic) design alone is nearly always enough. making something look nice and be a nice layout is near useless for people in itself. it's entirely useless if what you're laying out nicely is of no use itself. basically content (functionality and words) far outweighs what you're asking about marketing-wise. and with the internet being useless comes to a real head, because bugger all people will use it! how does that fit into your marketing plan?; nobody using your website.

    see what i'm gettting at? your question itself is missing the point -- the question doesn't ask openly, what works marketing wise on a website?; you've answered that question yourself to a certain extent (incorrectly imo) by constraining the answer to visual/layout/organisation things -- you're assuming those things have a major impact on sales. alone they don't. they may have some after you've established some useful content of who your business is useful to. even then, design is not where it's at. once you've got good content, that generally dictates, by common sense, the organsiation/layout etc. of it i reckon. simplicity is always a good thing to head for.
    -------------------------
    Get your Dinosoles now at skatesale.co.uk-But what are Dinosoles?
    Dinosoles are simply shoes with dinosaur footprints on the sole.
    Official DinoGear!

  11. #11
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    I think Jacob Nielsen's Usability site http://www.useit.com/ addresses some of those issues.

  12. #12
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    > interesting how all other replies to my post are not so heated nor arrogant.

    not interesting at all.

    > i have no interest in posts that are not helpful nor ones that ar plain rude. Your posts are rude. I suggest you dont post replies if you cant be civil.

    i agree i could have put it much more diplomatically and better. there is some arrogance in my posts there for sure. there's also a bit of passion. there's also a bit of info. you chose to concentrate on just the arrogance. i apologise about the arrogance but not for being passionate.

    > Why bother? Seriously?

    i'm assuming you're referring to something said about not bothering with design much. anti design. if so, yes, seriously. the website pointed to by Karin Sue above is an excellent example of a website which is absolutely jam packed with genuinely useful, thorough, not available elsewhere, well researched, good quality original content establishing Jacob Nielsen as someone who knows what he's talking about, thus (a) being useful to those it's aimed at, and (b) driving sales for him and what he does (i don't know that for an absolute fact but it's fair guess i think). now look at the design of the site. is it possible to have no graphic/visual design at all? no, but he's had a damn good go at it. a lack of effort on visual design was a conscious decision on his part -- primarily for pragmatic/practical reasons i think: he wasn't a designer and he didn't want to hire one for money reasons. i remember reading that somewhere. i wonder what would have happened to Jacob if he'd reversed that? spent all time, effort and money on visual design, and bugger all on content? (which is what a lot of people including clients of professional website makers and website makers themselves, including myself -- not happily and stupidly -- do, and it doesn't work marketing wise).

    also, about anti design, i'm exaggerating, being melodramatic to make a point: content has far more weight, more importance to a visitor to a site than its visual/graphic design (shapes, colours, layout etc.). so concentrate on the content not visual design if you're concerned about driving sales.

  13. #13
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    Search Engine Marketing Inc. by Mike Moran and Bill Hunt is a very good book - I will use a basic one; you should read it. You will find a lot of information related on how you should create your site to attract users.


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