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  1. #76
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    paul_wilkins's Avatar
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    That's reversing cause and effect.
    http://markmail.org/message/efxmugygrt3avyvt

    Masayasu Ishikawa from the W3C says:
    The major purpose of providing XML Schemas in addition to DTDs is to allow better validation than DTD. Many "DTD-valid" documents which don't use correct data types will become Schema-invalid as well.

    This document explicitly states that these Schemas are "informative", and this document does not change the normative definition of XHTML 1.0. So long as your document meets all the criteria for strictly conforming XHTML 1.0 document, your document is syntactically a strictly conforming XHTML 1.0 document, whether it's Schema-valid or not. These XML Schemas provide additional checks to create "more-than-DTD-valid" XHTML 1.0 documents, which would be more likely to meet the constraints of the specification.
    ...
    Personally I'm very reluctant to loosen this constraint for the sake of compatibility with the DTD incapability. Making legend optional is very bad for accessibility, and we would not have done so in XHTML 1.0 if XML DTD had enough capability to express that constraint.
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    Reference: JavaScript, Quirksmode Validate: HTML Validation, JSLint
    Car is to Carpet as Java is to JavaScript

  2. #77
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    paul_wilkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rochow View Post
    Because the image is positioned on top of the text if the image has transparency the text will show through. Plus if it goes wider than 16px it'll spill into the box over the top of the content.
    I don't know the details of your implementation, but the idea was to let the transparent part of it spill over into the content area so that the alt text would have some room to be seen. It could be done as an absolutely positioned element so that it won't interfere with the rest of the layout.

    The alt attribute on the image is where you would put the replacement text, so that should the image not be available the text will appear, in the area that has been made for it with transparent pixels.
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    Reference: JavaScript, Quirksmode Validate: HTML Validation, JSLint
    Car is to Carpet as Java is to JavaScript

  3. #78
    SitePoint Addict rochow's Avatar
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    That is relevant if there is no heading, for example it's reading out the menu then all of a sudden it's reading out username, password, login.

    I don't think you understand. I have updated the image (this is taken from the coded version -- yes, I can code a box (OMG)):


    I posted a possible solution on the last post on the previous page. Needs line breaks though, or to wrap every letter in something (possibly a span) and set display:block on it.

  4. #79
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Hmmm, the blue and the green border should together be the image, right? So let login sit OVER the blue (seen w/o images) and then you'll need to sit the whole larger image over it (blue covering the text).

    Cause yeah I wouldn't do the br thing although that might kinda work (a bit confusing for some folks but not impossible to figure out I guess... JAWS will say "Ell, oh, Gee, Eye, Enn" which would sound pretty strange).
    or to wrap every letter in something (possibly a span) and set display:block on it.
    Hmmm, better. I've done this once with a "template" where people could type in any word and get a funky vertical style. CSS off it looked like normal text, though everything was wrapped in em's or something (span makes more sense).

    Although actually I'd not have login sitting there at all. I know that's where the text is when the image is on but that's not where the text has to be with images off---

    Just thought of another one, the text can go back into the legend and make it the same colour as the background blue. Have a different colour sitting behind the bg image so when there's no image, the blue legend can be read (white bg maybe).

    Paul, I also noticed a long time ago that fieldset without legend would give an error with HTML4 but not XHTML (and never found it being required in the HTML4 specs, only that legend should come after the fieldset) but now I know why (cause that was pretty confusing... I just figured I'd use legend as much as possible and when I needed to move the legend offscreen, I'd try substituting a div instead of fieldset, like with SEARCH forms which are so self-explanitory that if you need a legend to figure it out, your guardian should be sitting next to you helping you figure out teh InterTubes anyway). Though it wouldn't be so bad if I didn't need to hack so much for FireFox not letting me move the friggin legend....grrr...
    So thanks for posting that. It clears things up a lot.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Addict rochow's Avatar
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    Hmmm, the blue and the green border should together be the image, right? So let login sit OVER the blue (seen w/o images) and then you'll need to sit the whole larger image over it (blue covering the text).
    The box is one image (CSS sprites) and all the headings are in a seperate image. What do you mean by putting login ontop? The blue box is the same box the image is on.

  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Yeah I think I'm having trouble grokking it but I bet I could figure something out if I saw all the code (or I could take your code from a page before) and what the box is supposed to look like with all the form stuff inside, and what's different with the other boxes (like, do they need to grow or are the images just normal one size?).

    Depending on how many forms are on this page (or is it each page gets a different form) I may totally remove the headers and use something else (sometimes a legend will do and sometimes it's just not man enough to do the job).

    hehe, positining the legend above the form like a big header would be funny. So, what are these boxes supposed to look like with the login text boxes etc inside?

    Is there add'l background behind these forms or just white?

    *edit remember that if you're thinking of screen readers, they won't be reading a list and then suddenly username and password... usually they say Aha! A form has appeared! Cause you can go "into" a form with forms mode.

  7. #82
    SitePoint Addict rochow's Avatar
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    The boxes are various heights (all the same width) and the side heading is positioned centered vertically. This is the only one that's a form.

    You can see the HTML on the previous page. There's 3 divs (middle, top, bottom) and the first one has blue set on the background, so if images are disabled the text still shows up (as it's white). There's nothing behind the boxes, just white.

    The box doesn't really matter though. The problem is the heading is 16px wide, so the text is cutoff when images are disabled. If the width is greater, the heading will go over the top of box's content (in which case it's probably better to not have the heading at all!)


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