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  1. #26
    SitePoint Guru risoknop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neron-fx View Post
    total cobblers,

    I have never come across one company or client who was happy to just use WordPress or Drupal etc etc. Companies want to be unique and set apart from their competitors! God the web would be such a bland place if everyone used these bog standard and boring templates with slightly different colours and images. I sincerely hope you are wrong otherwise a lot of people are going to be out of work .... still at least my job as a developer is safe! haha!
    Exactly my point. Professional web designers and developers are mostly hired by companies or corporations, not by some individuals who just want some small personal web site or blog...

    And big companies are definately no going to be happy with some generic CMS and some free template

  2. #27
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    I believe it's coming to a point where professional web designers are going to become to expensive for the one man ma and pop store to afford. I do web design full time for a company and in my spare time i freelance... a lot of the time i get to the point where its too much of a hassle to deal with some clients who don't want to pay a lot but want so much. I think for those people, templates and boxed up CMS's work just fine. It gives them an affordable solution and lets the professionals keep their sanity haha.
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  3. #28
    perfect = good enough peach's Avatar
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    You just got to keep up with time!

    1. Learn to developer with Wordpress and/or Drupal
    2. Build a template/theme store?

    Innovate or die, thats the evolution of businesses

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy Black Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregjarvis View Post
    I believe it's coming to a point where professional web designers are going to become to expensive for the one man ma and pop store to afford.
    In a way, this addresses the point I came in to make. Web design will never die out, because
    1. it's easy enough to learn so that amateurs can design good-looking and functional sites;
    2. more and more Web sites appear every day;
    3. Wordpress, Drupal, et al provide generic, template-driven sites that many do not find individual enough or satisfactory to their needs.


    Besides, Web design satisfies many people's creative urges in a way that painting, sculpture, poetry, etc does not.

    Yes, professional web design is becoming expensive, if you hire a full-time professional. How many of us are jackleg, freelance, on-the-side designers? How many beautiful and functional sites were designed by rank amateurs? There are times when you need to hire a pro. There are many times when you have less expensive alternatives.

    This discussion reminds me of the arguments raised a couple of decades ago: "MacPaint is going to render oil painting/watercolor painting/sketching etc obsolete!!" Nonsense.

  5. #30
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    Website Design becoming a dying fad? Maybe.... However, there are specific cases where you would want to custom build a site from scratch if the customer doesn't care about upkeeping the site on their own where a CMS system like Joomla.org works great (CMS - Content Management System) A content management system is software that keeps track of every piece of content on your Web site, much like your local public library keeps track of books and stores them. Content can be simple text, photos, music, video, documents, or just about anything you can think of. A major advantage of using a CMS is that it requires almost no technical skill or knowledge to manage. Since the CMS manages all your content, you don't have to.

    I have yet to see a case where Joomla can't satisfy a customer from chat room extensions, banner management systems, forums, forms, video management systems, news modules, etc. and all the work is done for you and for free! Customizing the sites are just like any other template you would see but with the CMS feature or can make a great add on page to custom built site needing a forum page, chat room, webcam page, etc. I believe the only downfall is it needs a PHP environment or MySQL.

    Huge open source revolution and allows developers to still make a lot money for a 1/4 of the work now! Let's face it, companies don't want to and can't afford to pay you the real money a designer should make from ground up to design an entire page and custom code it for the 320 hours it will take you to finish the project at a going rate of $180.00/hr = $57,600.00

    Cut your time in development, let others create what you need and use them for a solution for your customers and now you can legitimize your cost to the company of $4,000.00 - $10,000.00

    GO JOOMLA!

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by staylor3 View Post
    Website Design becoming a dying fad? Maybe.... However, there are specific cases where you would want to custom build a site from scratch if the customer doesn't care about upkeeping the site on their own where a CMS system like Joomla.org works great (CMS - Content Management System) A content management system is software that keeps track of every piece of content on your Web site, much like your local public library keeps track of books and stores them. Content can be simple text, photos, music, video, documents, or just about anything you can think of. A major advantage of using a CMS is that it requires almost no technical skill or knowledge to manage. Since the CMS manages all your content, you don't have to.

    I have yet to see a case where Joomla can't satisfy a customer from chat room extensions, banner management systems, forums, forms, video management systems, news modules, etc. and all the work is done for you and for free! Customizing the sites are just like any other template you would see but with the CMS feature or can make a great add on page to custom built site needing a forum page, chat room, webcam page, etc. I believe the only downfall is it needs a PHP environment or MySQL.

    Huge open source revolution and allows developers to still make a lot money for a 1/4 of the work now! Let's face it, companies don't want to and can't afford to pay you the real money a designer should make from ground up to design an entire page and custom code it for the 320 hours it will take you to finish the project at a going rate of $180.00/hr = $57,600.00

    Cut your time in development, let others create what you need and use them for a solution for your customers and now you can legitimize your cost to the company of $4,000.00 - $10,000.00

    GO JOOMLA!
    Actually, we're talking about web design, not cms's.

    Also, joomla is one of the worst pre-built CMS's out there. It's complete crap. I talked about this in another thread.

    (Yes, I've used and developed for Wordpress, Expression Engine, Joomla, and a slew of other CMS solutions, and pound-for-pound, Joomla is leagues below Wordpress, Expression Engine, Movable Type, Drupal, Modx, Reflect, and so on and so forth.)

    Anyhow, I can see you're still new. Stick around, I'm sure you would learn a few things.

  7. #32
    Sesame Street Iimitk's Avatar
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    It's the same problem presented many times, in which people mix up between design and other "web work"! I'm not a designer but I can feel how bad this hurts designers and design as a profession as well.

    Design is certainly not going to die. 99designs alone is a solid proof. Actually as the web continues to grow, a greater need will be there for anyone to stand out of the crowd, hence a greater demand for good designs & designers will arise. Typical demand and supply. I wholeheartedly though wish that the template selling business to die.

    Off Topic:


    Which thread is that, XL?

    Edit: Never mind. Found it.
    Last edited by Iimitk; Sep 19, 2008 at 16:26.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Einstein

  8. #33
    SitePoint Guru glenngould's Avatar
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    Web design: A dying art?
    Not really: to design a website is getting closer and closer to design desktop applications. That's the trend in my opinion.
    Tweep List adds an avatar menu to Twitter (open source)
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by neron-fx View Post
    total cobblers,

    I have never come across one company or client who was happy to just use WordPress or Drupal etc etc. Companies want to be unique and set apart from their competitors! God the web would be such a bland place if everyone used these bog standard and boring templates with slightly different colours and images. I sincerely hope you are wrong otherwise a lot of people are going to be out of work .... still at least my job as a developer is safe! haha!
    Using Drupal doesn't mean adhering to any particular template or style. A pro Drupal designer can give you any appearance for your website as well as create custom modules to suit the requirements of the business.

    Using Drupal just means you get a pretty powerful backend already made for you so you don't spend time doing nuts and bolts of an application, you just spend time giving the site extra value and customisation.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by simsim View Post
    Off Topic:


    Which thread is that, XL?

    Edit: Never mind. Found it.
    Did you come across the post (I think it was Matt's) about security on the web? I think IBM sponsored it - Joomla was also the worst: literally the most unsecured "software" available.

  11. #36
    SitePoint Zealot Bannaz's Avatar
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    I still think there is a good run left in web design.
    Bannaz - Flash Banner Design
    █ Leading designers in online advertising.
    www.bannaz.com

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard spence_noodle's Avatar
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    It's not a dying art, due to many companies and even the public who want an original design for their website.

    WordPress and Drupal are just blog websites which users can select a pre-made template, they don't want the hassle designing a new original template just to get a blog started. If they do then they will seek a designer, simple as that, or learn how to make one.

  13. #38
    SitePoint Zealot Luke Morton's Avatar
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    I believe starting with CMS when designing websites is fine as long as they can fulfill the core purpose of a website. They only speed up development time if it can do what the end user needs. Even starting with a basic template is not bad, because then you can spend time developing it into a good design which you would otherwise spend on developing a custom system. Only lazy or stupid web designers fakers would use a template design as standard.

    Obviously if there is a system out their that does not meet the requirements needed then a custom one needs to be built, otherwise why not take advantage of teams of people putting together open source systems and libraries.
    Luke Morton
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  14. #39
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    I don't think webdesign is dying at all. In fact I think it is stonger than ever, unfortunately anyone with a computer is a web designer. Good bad or indifferent, they all hand a sign up that says web design done here.

    I get hosting customers daily looking for designers but I have very few to offer. Everyone is very limited in scope of has no experience at all.

    I lose customers daily because they can't build a simple template for pagebuzz.com they only know how to upload a finished page with ftp or ht the publish button on frontpage. So they tell my customers they have to move to a "professional host".

    They all lack the basic knowledge to understand tags, relative urls and spacial retations in pages. Designers don't know what a page looks like on 2 different browsers and some don't even know what a browser is.

    I know there are some great designers out there. But with everyone that has ever built a page competing for the same design business the good designers get lost in a sea of people with little experience.

    In many cases people just give up and do it themselves. After a few lousy designers and spending money and time to try to get a business online the flood of wannabe designers giving the good designers a bad rap.

    There is plenty of work out there, people want unique designs. But they have no way of knowing who is good and who is bad.

    One designer called me, she was building a website for one of our hosting clients and she did not even knwo what a domain was. In fact she had never actually build a live website, she builds them and the owner is rsponsible for uploading them.

    I am not saying a designer should know how to write programs, but they need to know how to publish a website for sure.

    What is worse is these people are charging $1500 for a single page. The money is there, but the business is being destroyed by not having some type of certification or organization to validate the good from the bad.

  15. #40
    Sesame Street Iimitk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    Did you come across the post (I think it was Matt's) about security on the web? I think IBM sponsored it - Joomla was also the worst: literally the most unsecured "software" available.
    No, I actually thought you meant this one. Care to point out the other one?
    Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Einstein

  16. #41
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    Template based sites are so many and you can identify easily which are template based which have been specially designed. For small business owner a ready made template can work but for ecommerce sites and other site you need to stand out from your competitors and you need a webdesigner and webdeveloper to make it as customers need it

  17. #42
    Non-Member Musicbox's Avatar
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    there are very few websites which are designed in advanced and beautiful

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by usef4u View Post
    Template based sites are so many and you can identify easily which are template based which have been specially designed. For small business owner a ready made template can work but for ecommerce sites and other site you need to stand out from your competitors and you need a webdesigner and webdeveloper to make it as customers need it
    That is why systems like ours give people access to the raw data fields. Then they can build templates and formats using the data they need or want to use.

    For example our system for car dealers allows them to manage their inventory. But we feed out the raw data. Templated or not, the right designer can do anything they want with that data.

    Designers need to grasp that the world is not made of static content and understand that templates and inclusion files are the way todays pages are built.

    My problem is finding designers that even understand basic html. I am tired of having my client's desigers call me and they don't know image paths and basic html tags. They will never be able to integrate advanced templates for their customers.

    Just because the data is the same for all car dealers does not mean all the sites should look the same. With todays content delivery methods the only excuse for clones is that the designers are falling short.

    There is a definite need for good designers. But where are they?

    I see more web designer websites that clearly indicate they canot design and many have only done a handful of sites.

    I have built over 2000 sites in the last few years and I am not even a designer. So who are all these designers that have built 1 or 2 sites and talk like they have years of experience? Seriously, how hard is it to build a website?

    If they want to advertise that they are an expert, they should have to prove it in some way.

    There is no question that there is a demand for good designers with a knowledge of what they are doing.
    pagebuzz.com is a simple web based website hosting system.
    A CMS that is great for newbies and designers.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Addict Green Moon's Avatar
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    Good web designers will always be in demand, but like any other field of endeavor, they must change with the times. In many cases, in order to provide services that are economical, that means that the starting point may be a template or a prior design rather than starting completely from scratch.

    Before the industrial revolution, every gun, every chair, and every shirt were made from scratch. Due to that process, goods were incredibly expensive. After interchangeable parts and mass production, the ordinary person could not only afford to buy a gun, a chair, and a shirt, they could afford several. However, there are still people today that buy custom-made guns, furniture and clothing.

    What has changed significantly from when I hired someone 15 years ago to design a website for a company I worked for is that someone with the ability to write html but with no sense of design won't last long. Anyone who calls himself a designer but can't create a web page that looks at least as good as the best templates should find a new line of work.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by simsim View Post
    No, I actually thought you meant this one. Care to point out the other one?
    Here you go:

    http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/show...&highlight=IBM

    My memory failed me as well: Thought it was one of Matt's posts. My mistake. And Joomla isn't the worst (although the worst single-product vendor I believe).

  21. #46
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    To be honest, I think the generic web designer is on the way out. The web designer who can work with developers closely, or the web designer who specializes in UI design or certain industries is becoming more valuable.

    Differentiate or die.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Addict NetNerd85's Avatar
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    I use websites to achieve a task. Not email the designer and make him feel useful.

    w3.org, php.net, ebay, pizzahut direct, book stores, news.com.au and a few forums.

    I work with designers every day and although the designs look good they miss the point. They (designers) all do because they have their heads in the clouds.

    Let's take Sitepoint for example... graphics for ads and avatars... indeed.

    Computer Gaming and movie advertisement websites are like the only reason to use graphics, even then I'd rather go to youtube to watch a trailer than wait for flash to load (even on the fastest speed broadband).

    Google.

    Edit: I don't think generic designs are good but graphic intensive websites are not need, use a little to tart her up but that is it. You don't need to go over board, save it for PRINT, know your place. Anyone else tired of intrusive flash ads?
    a new day, a new beginning
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  23. #48
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    I don't think website design is a dying art. I agree with you that there will be a small group of designers versus the rest of the user population and this will create competition among the small group if they want to stand out. The result of this will be good for web design, because it'll advance design and create new ways to old problems.
    Omnistar Etools offers Web Software Solutions for Businesses

  24. #49
    SitePoint Guru cyjetsu's Avatar
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    In my opinion, saying web design is a dying art is like saying cooking is dead because of microwaves, or soldiers are not needed because of advanced weapons. Sure if you want some sloppy crude mess imploded onto your server you can always pay your window cleaner 5 bucks to whip up something in dreamweaver, but if you want a professional design created, optimized perfectly for the function of your project then you will need someone who is an expert in that field.

  25. #50
    SitePoint Wizard webcosmo's Avatar
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    I think more and more people get in web thingy web design would be more popular. Web design always intended for people who wanna have a personalized look. Out-of-the-box solutions work for small things, but for people who really wanna go for serious business they would need a personalized design.


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