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Thread: Money as Debt

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    SitePoint Addict Hero Doug's Avatar
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    Money as Debt

    This is the best video I've seen in such a long time. I highly recommend watching it.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74362583451279

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    SitePoint Enthusiast WickedGoddess's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link..

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    SitePoint Addict Hero Doug's Avatar
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    No problem. I really see this as something that should be common knowledge, but as the video said, it just isn't.

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    Very good explanation although I am not certain about the possibility of changing the system. The banking system has always seemed to me the best among the worst systems possible (something like that happens with democracy).

    Still, it is obvious a change is needed. We can't have a huge world wide crisis every 100 years!

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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Still, it is obvious a change is needed. We can't have a huge world wide crisis every 100 years!
    Well its fundamentally floored for the long term. Exponential growth cannot continue infinitely in when there are only finite resources.

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    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    This video was well made. Too bad that the solution they offered came from a collectivist mindset: forcefully taking moneys (taxes) to build an infrastructure to be "owned" by all. Oversight of such a "secure investment" to be had by whom? Bureaucrats of course. Giving them even more power over the money and the distribution and use of it. We are in a situation like that right now, government engineering causing a collapse that will only be prolonged by more of the same.

    The only solution to this mess is to get the greediness of governments and their bureaucrats out of it and go back to the gold standard. Each piece of paper that is printed as money must be backed by its value in gold, or better yet, have the money that circulates be real gold and stand for what money truly should be: an exchange value for what was rendered in work to gain it.
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    I see.

    After watching that explanation I get why "inflation" increases and fluctuates like it does.

    It never made sense to me before that economists couldn't figure out the cause of inflation if the only way money came into existence was by being minted.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ro0bear View Post
    Well its fundamentally floored for the long term. Exponential growth cannot continue infinitely in when there are only finite resources.
    Not only that. It is moraly wrong when people can't get frustrated and loose their homes because they can't pay it back or a company needs to close for the same reason. With this, I am referring to people that do manage their economies right, but what for whatever reason, luck turned its back to them and find themselves in a difficult situation.

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    SitePoint Zealot McStompin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    The only solution to this mess is to get the greediness of governments and their bureaucrats out of it and go back to the gold standard. Each piece of paper that is printed as money must be backed by its value in gold, or better yet, have the money that circulates be real gold and stand for what money truly should be: an exchange value for what was rendered in work to gain it.
    I wish everybody thought like this, Datura! A system of constant borrowing, credit, inflation and no savings can only work so long before it falls apart.
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    SitePoint Addict Hero Doug's Avatar
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    Oversight of such a "secure investment" to be had by whom? Bureaucrats of course. Giving them even more power over the money and the distribution and use of it.
    I disagree with what was said above about the solution posted in the video. Right now it's primarly banks that are pouring new money into the economy. The only thing that would change is there the new money came from, and that would be in the form of social services and public works projects. Wealth distribution will remain the same, it's only the entry point that changes.

    And also, the governments already oversee public infastructure, they wouldn't be getting any more power at all. Also, you can't build anything without government approval. Just building a workshop on YOUR property requires a permit.

    I think the current system did it's job; it got us up to speed quickly. Now it's time to relax a bit and think long term.

    One point I can agree on is that the aristrocrats need to be stripped of their power and a proper democratic system needs to be put in place, otherwise any system will fail in the end.

    I invision a society where there are dedicated voting stations open all the time. People would be able to enter and cast their vote for laws or public work projects, even put an idea of their own forward for public vote. This way the public will have a tool outside of rioting to have their voices heard. Corrupt officals would also be investigated and booted out of office much more quickly under such a system. This would keep governments in line, things like Canada seling itself to America would be near impossible because the citizens would have a proper say in what happens, not just the elite few at the top.

    Also, Granted there's only been three somewhat major times of financial turmoil, but they have occured closer each time.

    1930 - 1980 : 50 years
    1980 - 2008 : 18 years

    So if the next one occures sooner than 18 years then I think what the video spoke about will be proven true. I honestly hope it does happen, because it'll be the kick in the rear needed to promote change.

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    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero Doug View Post

    And also, the governments already oversee public infastructure, they wouldn't be getting any more power at all. Also, you can't build anything without government approval. Just building a workshop on YOUR property requires a permit.
    …and because it it so, does that make it right?

    You have accepted and advocated a nightmare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero Doug View Post
    One point I can agree on is that the aristrocrats need to be stripped of their power and a proper democratic system needs to be put in place, otherwise any system will fail in the end
    Just a point on this... I guess that with aristrocrats you are referring to the people that have the power, in this case, financial power, which are the bankers.

    The idea of a democratic system is all very good. After all, it has proved to be the best system of all the bad systems. Still, even in a democratic system, there are people that have power and take decisions, and people who don't. So I think that the whole idea of stripping someone from their power to give it to someone else... well, let's say that I don't consider it a good idea. It would be the same story again. Which is, after all, the history of human kind.

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    Just watch how political you get here people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    The idea of a democratic system is all very good. After all, it has proved to be the best system of all the bad systems. Still, even in a democratic system, there are people that have power and take decisions, and people who don't. So I think that the whole idea of stripping someone from their power to give it to someone else... well, let's say that I don't consider it a good idea. It would be the same story again. Which is, after all, the history of human kind.
    You're talking about republic.

    The problem in true democracy is, for example, that if the majority of your neighbours decided you're not welcome in the neighbourhood, they would legally evict you or worse.

    There's no true democracy in the world (correct me if I'm wrong). There was one in Ancient Greece and Rome, but in neither case it didn't turn out well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    Just watch how political you get here people...
    Well, I don't want to get political... I was just simply saying that even in a democratic system where decissions are taken by everyone, someone has to control that they are carried out. Hence, you have to give the power to someone or to a few, so you are stuck in the same situation.

    But I am not giving names!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Well, I don't want to get political...
    It was a blanket warning - I wasn't pointing fingers.

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    SitePoint Addict Hero Doug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura
    …and because it it so, does that make it right?

    You have accepted and advocated a nightmare.
    Yes it's a bit unnerving to realize that we aren't actually free like so many people believe, but it's better than the alternatives. N.Korean style dictatorships aren't my flavour for obvious reasons. And allowing people the complete freedom to buy what they want and build what they want where they want isn't any better. I don't know about your opinion, but I'm of the opinion that just because someone has an oil patch on their property doesn't necessarily mean that they should be able to drill in my community. It could easily do more harm than good to the community at large, essentially benefiting one person or group of people while negatively affecting a much larger majority of others. Although I'll admit it's becoming more controlling, I believe the system we have has struck a reasonable balance between complete control and complete freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by molona
    So I think that the whole idea of stripping someone from their power to give it to someone else... well, let's say that I don't consider it a good idea. It would be the same story again. Which is, after all, the history of human kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by molona
    Well, I don't want to get political... I was just simply saying that even in a democratic system where decissions are taken by everyone, someone has to control that they are carried out. Hence, you have to give the power to someone or to a few, so you are stuck in the same situation.
    You're right, it's essentially the same; but the difference is that the community at large help decide what way their community goes in a more effective manner than they can now. If 70% of the community would like their community to have a historic motif for instance, absolutely nothing will happen unless that one person in charge decides to push the proposal through. I was just thinking of flipping it around, the people push the proposal through, and the guy in charge does what the public wishes. They are public servants after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK
    Just watch how political you get here people...
    I didn't realize Sitepoint was anti-political. There's nothing wrong with an intelligent conversation is there?

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    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero Doug View Post
    There's nothing wrong with an intelligent conversation is there?
    There is at SitePoint. It's in the rules. It's because experience has shown that political discussions tend to offend some people and cause responses that, no matter how intelligent one person thinks an argument is, can get out of hand.

    Your post compares Datura's viewpoint with that of the North Korean dictatorship. As well argued, intelligent and nuanced as your argument may be, that kind of discussion is what brings the flamers out of the woodworks. It also comes very close to the "all political discussions inevitably result in somebody being compared to Hitler or the Nazis" rule. I feel it'd be best to close this thread if anybody responds further to those recent posts. I say this even though I really don't want the thread to end, because the original video is so good.

    I'd love to get into this political discussion because I feel strongly about a few of the things people have said as do you, but it is against the rules so I have abstained as I hope others do. It is rules like this that help SP to be such a welcoming place to new people.
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    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Yep, awesome video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero Doug View Post
    I didn't realize Sitepoint was anti-political.
    Then read the guidelines.

    I won't elaborate as mmj has explained it better than I ever could have.

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    SitePoint Addict Hero Doug's Avatar
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    mmj, although I didn't "compare Datura's viewpoint with that of the North Korean dictatorship", your point is valid. If Sitepoint believes in political censorship then who am I to say otherwise.

    A note on the video though, I just read on Yahoo news that Bush is planning to hold a series of summits on international monetary reform, and the EU is also demanding the summits. It's good to see that political leaders want to change the monetary system. It'll be interesting to see where these talks go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero Doug View Post
    If Sitepoint believes in political censorship ...
    we actually believe in freedom of expression

    just don't do it here, where it causes problems

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero Doug View Post
    If Sitepoint believes in political censorship then who am I to say otherwise.
    I think that what SP believes is in human nature. Too often people don't take the time to listen or read what's being said and we don't care about getting the true meaning, just what we believe it says. I happens with every topic but if the topic is related to polictics or religion, it happens even more often. In addition, they go bersek

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    SitePoint Addict Hero Doug's Avatar
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    we actually believe in freedom of expression

    just don't do it here, where it causes problems
    Kind of shot yourself in the foot with that comment

    But seriously guys, no matter how you slice it, their controlling all political content on the site via closing the thread for posting, or removing the thread completely. That is censorship, and I don't see how you can argue the point. It's no different than the censor working at the local t.v. station checking consumes before air to make sure their suitable. They make the rules about what content they don't want to see, and they enforce those rules.

    No matter what the reason is, good or bad, it is censorship.

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    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Arguments about the SitePoint guidelines do not belong in this thread. Please take it up somewhere else, like here, and let this thread go back to its original topic. If you go into someone's space, you respect that person's rules, lest you get kicked out.
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