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  1. #26
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    frank1, your posts are full of weasel words (some, most, many) with which you repeat sentiments of clueless PHP developers. You may want to take a step back and look at who has been feeding you these "facts" - because you are dead wrong on all of them.

    Well, you may be right that "most" PHP developers believe that PHP is more flexible. Surprise.

    Flexibility

    What the h*** is that? PHP is a dynamically typed language where in .NET you would use a statically typed language. That may be what "most people" are thinking off. However, that does not make it more flexible. Anything you can do in PHP you can do with ASP.NET - and then some. And ASP.NET does not rely on C extensions for the dirty jobs. You can just keep on coding in your favorite .NET language and upload to your hosted server. The hosting company does not block you from this (like with PHP) because of the sand boxing of .NET.

    Performance
    Do your homework instead of listening to "them" (or reading Sean Hull ramblings). ASP.NET absolutely bests PHP on performance. .NET executes fully compiled to machine code, PHP is interpreted; even with an opcode cache like APC PHP still executes semi-interpreted. What this means is that .NET performs faster right from the start.

    Scalability
    The fact that PHP can scale does not make it better at scaling than .NET. In fact, ASP.NET scales much better than PHP with complexity, and with traffic.

    PHP must start from scratch at every single request. This may rescue the typical PHP site from some nasty memory bugs, but it also means that as pages or your model grows - the pages will need more script. To use a class in PHP the class building code must be executed - regardless of APC. Trivially to see that when a page need more classes - more script must be executed for each request. You need to battle this with autoload and APC; but the fundamental problem never goes away: As page/site/model complexity grows so does the overhead on each request. ASP.NET does not have this problem at all; it's compiled and ready for execution regardless of the number of classes. No additional overhead as the site grows.

    PHP is not considered thread-safe, mainly due to the many C libraries being used by extensions. Thus, PHP must be executed under a separate process model. Processes are much more heavyweight than threads - they require more resources - memory, handles etc. Furthermore, processes cannot share these resources. ASP.NET executes in a threaded model which is much lighter on server resources. And it can share resources such as in-memory cache etc. This translates into ASP.NET being able to scale far better than PHP.

    Learning resources
    You'll find ample resources for both PHP and ASP.NET if you look properly. You cannot really compare communities, but the official MSDN documentation is easily much richer than the PHP documentation. MSDN help topics frequently contain code samples or at least links to code samples. There are a large number of tutorials, videos and articles on advanced topics. Many blogs to be found about ASP.NET coding topics. http://asp.net/learn is a good starting point. Or http://4guysfromrolla.com/. But there are many, many more.

    Varying standards
    You seem to have read an article where the developer promoted the use of stored procedures. Personally I'm not that fond of stored procedures, but in some enterprises you will have to live under a regime where the server admins require all of your database access to go through SPs. The reasons for this is perceived better auditability, security and to be able to better predict performance/scalability. It's not varying standards it's just local standards. The fact that ASP.NET adapts so well is just a testament for the flexibility.

    ---

    frank1, it is clear from your "comparisons" that you do not have a lot of experience with multiple languages/frameworks. If you have ever only seen PHP and surround you with PHP developers your world view is being skewed. The "many" and "most" people you listen to obviously don't have a clue about ASP.NET; because if they wanted to criticize ASP.NET they would come up with far more damaging issues, such as over-using POSTs and ViewState pressure.

  2. #27
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    As its name says the meaning of PHP is "Personal Home Page".
    Althrough today's definition (Hypertext Preprocessor) sounds a bit better it is still technology for .... ok i will not say that. lol

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard frank1's Avatar
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    with all that logic one thing is clear ...asp.net is very complicated....and to do mild task .net is never required....

    and it only comes in to play ..for some developers like you ,may be who are just hired to develop and think,think and think in one language all the day...

    for ordinary developers like us...php is fine...

    i once again say... .net is powerful than php (no second thoughts...with so many engineers working with that fund..and with that resources...)

    my logic is php is simplier and good for mild task....so is famous..the number of php compared asp developers or numbers of php application made compared to .net application proves them all....well i dont have to say....or prove

    numbers proves it all

    so i mean to say that to certain level we dont need .net ...
    and most people prefer php...or develop on php....

    and my personal getting ...
    the thing that is done with 100 lines of .net code(with many using clauses..., threading,subclassing...) can be done with 10 lines of php code in typical scenario..

    my personal thought

    .net may be powerful but php is famous

  4. #29
    SitePoint Evangelist praetor's Avatar
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    the thing that is done with 100 lines of .net code(with many using clauses..., threading,subclassing...) can be done with 10 lines of php code in typical scenario..
    I'm really curious about an example.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank1 View Post
    and it only comes in to play ..for some developers like you ,may be who are just hired to develop and think,think and think in one language all the day...
    I think the difference is that professional programmers who have to think in *different* languages every day will know and realize that both PHP and .NET are powerful in their own right. I learned PHP many years ago, but learned .NET when it came out because it's way better than PHP when developing for Windows.

    One of the great advantages .NET has is that you can use several different languages to develop against the same framework (VB, C#, C++, JScript), and compiled binaries are all interchangeable amongst each other.

  6. #31
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    Wikipedia:

    Weasel words are deliberately misleading or ambiguous elements of language used to avoid making a straightforward statement while simultaneously generating the illusion that a direct, clear form communication is being utilized. This type of language is used to deceive, distract, or manipulate an audience.

    Tactics that are used include vague generalizations; the use of the passive voice; non-sequitur statements; extrapolating through the use of grammatical devices such as qualifiers and the subjunctive; using euphemisms (e.g., replacing "firing staff" with "headcount reduction").
    frank1, I don't believe that you are deliberately trolling this thread, but nevertheless your posts contain loads of such weasel words. I believe that you are passionate about PHP; I too am passionate about a lot of other things (just not PHP).

    Try posting some concrete critique instead of "most people", or "PHP is more famous" or "numbers prove it all".

    Please post legitimate critique or links to legitimate critique. Post the numbers you believe "prove it all". Explain who "most people" who "prefer PHP". Your friends? Is it most people on the PHP forum? The local Linux users group? The local Microsoft Gold Certified partners?

    I can tell you that "most enterprises" prefer ASP.NET. The latest survey by port80 software showed ASP.NET leading by a wide margin (more than 50% of Fortune 1000 companies) with Java in 2nd place (12.7%) and PHP a distant third (6%). So I guess it all depends on who you ask. I have no doubt that PHP leads by a wide margin in SMB segment.

    However, you can also tell from the official PHP usage stats here - stats in absolute numbers - that PHP grows a lot slower than the Internet; i.e. PHP is losing market share, fast!.

    PHP usage topped around september 2005 with apx. 23m domains. The latest stats (for some reason not updates since july 2007) puts PHP at 21m domains. In the same timeframe (according to the same survey - Netcraft) the internet grew from apx 72m to 126m domains. This means that PHP has dropped from a penetration of some 30% to 16% two years later. You brought up the numbers.

    Finally I would really like to see an example of 100 lines of ASP.NET expressed in 10 lines of PHP. Could you post an example?
    Last edited by honeymonster; May 23, 2008 at 03:54. Reason: numbers

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard frank1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itcn View Post
    I think the difference is that professional programmers who have to think in *different* languages every day will know and realize that both PHP and .NET are powerful in their own right. I learned PHP many years ago, but learned .NET when it came out because it's way better than PHP when developing for Windows.

    One of the great advantages .NET has is that you can use several different languages to develop against the same framework (VB, C#, C++, JScript), and compiled binaries are all interchangeable amongst each other.
    i totally agree with this comment....what i disagree is that some experts saying that .net is always superior than php

    any way these points sounds logical

    any way me being in learning phase as well have many things to learn about .net as well


    for other comments..
    when i say 10 lines and 100 lines...
    one must not forget lots of backword work going on in windows platform programming through inheritence and sub classing...

    i dont say these doesnt happen in php ..but php apps are much independent in itself...relatively...
    so including those task that has been already done in mircosft dll and classes windows code can look small but indeed...

    any way i hope it remains creative arguement...i am not slave of php...i also always feel dot net platform(architecture) is more powerful but php is easier and ok for many cases*

    note:well personally i dont think that php has shrinked to 6% and .net increased to that much observing current market...

  8. #33
    SitePoint Evangelist praetor's Avatar
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    Please, choose a simnple task that you think that are needed 10 lines of php code and let's see how many C# lines it takes.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by itcn View Post
    I think the difference is that professional programmers who have to think in *different* languages every day will know and realize that both PHP and .NET are powerful in their own right. I learned PHP many years ago, but learned .NET when it came out because it's way better than PHP when developing for Windows.

    One of the great advantages .NET has is that you can use several different languages to develop against the same framework (VB, C#, C++, JScript), and compiled binaries are all interchangeable amongst each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by honeymonster View Post
    Wikipedia:



    frank1, I don't believe that you are deliberately trolling this thread, but nevertheless your posts contain loads of such weasel words. I believe that you are passionate about PHP; I too am passionate about a lot of other things (just not PHP).

    Try posting some concrete critique instead of "most people", or "PHP is more famous" or "numbers prove it all".

    Please post legitimate critique or links to legitimate critique. Post the numbers you believe "prove it all". Explain who "most people" who "prefer PHP". Your friends? Is it most people on the PHP forum? The local Linux users group? The local Microsoft Gold Certified partners?

    I can tell you that "most enterprises" prefer ASP.NET. The latest survey by port80 software showed ASP.NET leading by a wide margin (more than 50% of Fortune 1000 companies) with Java in 2nd place (12.7%) and PHP a distant third (6%). So I guess it all depends on who you ask. I have no doubt that PHP leads by a wide margin in SMB segment.

    However, you can also tell from the official PHP usage stats here - stats in absolute numbers - that PHP grows a lot slower than the Internet; i.e. PHP is losing market share, fast!.

    PHP usage topped around september 2005 with apx. 23m domains. The latest stats (for some reason not updates since july 2007) puts PHP at 21m domains. In the same timeframe (according to the same survey - Netcraft) the internet grew from apx 72m to 126m domains. This means that PHP has dropped from a penetration of some 30% to 16% two years later. You brought up the numbers.

    Finally I would really like to see an example of 100 lines of ASP.NET expressed in 10 lines of PHP. Could you post an example?
    Nice posts. Really couldn't say it better myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by frank1 View Post
    for other comments..
    when i say 10 lines and 100 lines...
    one must not forget lots of backword work going on in windows platform programming through inheritence and sub classing...

    i dont say these doesnt happen in php ..but php apps are much independent in itself...relatively...
    so including those task that has been already done in mircosft dll and classes windows code can look small but indeed...
    frank1, it's not really related to Windows. It's related to the framework itself. In ASP.NET you inherit from a page. The Page class has a ton of functionality that I, personally, would not want to recreate myself. If you didn't want to inherit from a Page for some reason, you could create your entire application using HttpHandlers. With this approach a lot of the responsibilities are on your plate.

    What is my point? My point is ASP.NET is a framework. PHP out of the box is a language. Rails is a framework. CakePHP is a framework. When you work with a framework, you will inherit from various pieces to save time. Many developers are beginning to realize that using frameworks for medium to large-scale applications makes sense. If you're recreating pieces that have already been created and you have no need to create your own, expect for the sake of not including complex DLLs or pages, then you're wasting time and doing exactly the opposite; you are making your application more complex.

    Classes and assemblies are not just an ASP.NET thing; PHP has them as well. They obviously don't have assemblies, but they do have other php files that get included and they have the PEAR library. Classes, and DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself) ideas are not technology specific. It's standard software design and good practices.
    Last edited by sbauer; May 23, 2008 at 07:44.
    Shane Bauer
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbauer
    PHP out of the box is a language
    PHP is a SCRIPTING language. It makes a big difference or maybe it is not? You tell me. lol

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yugolancer View Post
    PHP is a SCRIPTING language. It makes a big difference or maybe it is not? You tell me. lol
    It does not.
    Shane Bauer
    .NET and Ruby on Rails

  12. #37
    I Never Give Up roosevelt's Avatar
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    Well I have been coding in PHP for 4 years now. And believe me I used it all, classes, cool frameworks like CodeIgniter, CakePHP and also been in quite a lot of arguments in favor of PHP.

    But, after taking a closer, and I mean spending 12 hours on ASP.NET I can honestly say ASP.NET is the best when it comes to experienced programmers.

    PHP is great for beginners to get an idea of the web, how POST/GET, server side and basic stuff works. But when we are talking about writing complex applications that takes hours, you will be amazed just how much time ASP.NET will save you.

    You are not limited as well, you can write your own controls, web parts and kickass stuff. Love the master page and sitemap feature .

    In conclusion ASP.NET is superior in my opinion.

    I am all about writing secure, robust applications in short amount of time. And ASP.NET gave me that answer but not PHP.

  13. #38
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    Iīve developed many years in PHP. Starting with a simple Guestbook until Iīve written my own C-Extension and really large projects.
    Now Iīm learning ASP.net/C#.
    Until now, Iīve the following impressions.

    Cost
    In a professional environment ASP.net is cheaper than the LAMP-Stack.
    Windows Webedition costs 10 €/month. A RHEL-licence costs nearly twice.
    However: I got Visual Studio Team System for free (yes, legal), so I can use Addins like Resharper and the crlab-mysql-driver.

    Devel Speed
    Iīm way faster in PHP. There Iīve already my helper-classes and so on.
    But I donīt have much experience in ASP (yet).
    So this could change.


    Performance
    ASP.net is faster than PHP.
    Itīs strongly typed and compiled, so this shouldnīt be a big surprise.
    PHP Extensions like APC are unfortunately unstable.


    Controls
    ASP comes with many controls.
    Most of them prefer an Objectdatasource.
    In the first moment, it seems that this helps a lot, but itīs very unflexible and sometimes confusing.
    It relies heavily on reflection, so an error occurs on runtime, not in compile time.
    The combination Listview, Objectdatasource and Datapager are a pain.
    But thats another story


    Scalability
    Thatīs not a question of the "language".
    I can write ******** in every language.

  14. #39
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by sbauer View Post
    It does not.
    what a hell?
    Ok, I will not say anything else but will laugh for a while

    Script is equaly to Programming language = LAUGHING

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by yugolancer View Post
    what a hell?
    Ok, I will not say anything else but will laugh for a while

    Script is equaly to Programming language = LAUGHING
    You can continue to laugh, but it won't make it less true. Just because it's a scripting language doesn't make it less of a programming language.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ming_languages

    Count how many scripting languages are on that list.
    Shane Bauer
    .NET and Ruby on Rails

  16. #41
    I Never Give Up roosevelt's Avatar
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    Hmm I believe you are misunderstanding the terminology. Programming language refers to any kind of coding language whether it is for the web or different operating systems.

    PHP is interpreted, so when you run a file using your browser, the php interpreter translates the file right there.

    Where ASP.NET, even though it is a web programming language, you can compile your files and make them .dll files. So the .NET framework doesn't need to compile the files.

    Both are programming language but executes differently than one another.

    Correct me, if I am wrong.

  17. #42
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    ^^^this man speaks the truth.

    Honestly, most of the cool stuff people are doing these days is focusing on interperted versus compiled languages anyhow. It definitely is a lot easier to play around and much more approachable even if strongly typed, compiled languages. I know I have had the most programming fun I have had in recent memory was playing around with PowerShell and JavaScript, not C#.

  18. #43
    SitePoint Enthusiast Anthony_c's Avatar
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    Wink Do I smell a brewing flame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borozdin View Post
    First of all, why should it be avaliable on the *nix hosting? Windows Server is getting more and more popular and a cheaper web hosting platform, Windows Server 2008 will even make it stronger on the market.
    Not as cheap as free. not to mention free upgrade support (recall paying for w2k > w2k3 > w2k8). and don't pay for the "commercial support" from red hat or whoever, nobody really needs that.

    Silly me, I thought the Micro$oft fangirls were a dead race...

  19. #44
    SitePoint Enthusiast Anthony_c's Avatar
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    What about

    ............. ColdFusion or JSP?

  20. #45
    SitePoint Enthusiast Anthony_c's Avatar
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by wwb_99 View Post
    ^^^this man speaks the truth.

    Honestly, most of the cool stuff people are doing these days is focusing on interperted versus compiled languages anyhow. It definitely is a lot easier to play around and much more approachable even if strongly typed, compiled languages. I know I have had the most programming fun I have had in recent memory was playing around with PowerShell and JavaScript, not C#.
    I agree 100%.
    asp.net is compiled, but not cross-platform (and lacking mysql support natively), whereas php is interpreted. JSP is the best of both worlds, BUT requires tomcat to run it, which may not play nice with an existing server setup. I implemented it on my hosting network via a seperate server running tomcat on port 80, and the "main" server (cluster) forwards certain "jsp directories" on a per-client basis to the tomcat server via Apache2's mod_proxy, which then sends the generated HTML back to the remote client seamlessly, taking place over 1 1000baseTX network and tied together with NFS for full dynamic capability. A bit of a stretch for not running windows (I do anyways using the same method, only using CIFS to mount the remote windows wwwroot directory, so this whole post really does not apply to me, especially since my IIS server runs ColdFusion as well, and php/DJango,joomla,RoR and CGI on may main server). But whatever gets the job done!

    As far as what I prefer? Maybe it's just me, but I really don't care. sometimes I change up the languages just for fun/practice. And for even more hysteria, I setup all my systems to use any of the major file extensions, for instance a php page with a .cfm extension, or a jsp page with a .aspx extension! But all this depends on the client's preferences as well, and common sense. Businesses like to see .aspx on other business sites, developers (not including the rare breed of microsoft fanboys) like to see the .php extension in the url, and... I guess myspace fanatics would feel at home with a .cfm?fuseaction=this.that url. So really, just be flexible. Not everybody has the same crazy setup I do server-wise to make cross-platform/third-party libraries a non-issue, but always be prepared to handle any situation.
    Last edited by Anthony_c; May 28, 2008 at 21:13. Reason: Trying to make it look like I'm not trolling...

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    Silly me, I thought the Micro$oft fangirls were a dead race...
    I thought the trolls that spelled Microsoft or MS with a $ were dying off too. I guess not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    ............. ColdFusion or JSP?
    Want the answer to that? Go create another topic somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    I agree 100%.
    . JSP is the best of both worlds, BUT requires tomcat to run it
    Tomcat is the least of the problems with Java web applications. Every time I work on a Java web application, I cringe. Every framework (Struts, Spring, etc) is usually very heavy with XML configuration. I cannot stand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    As far as what I prefer? Maybe it's just me, but I really don't care.
    I find that a little hard to believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    And for even more hysteria, I setup all my systems to use any of the major file extensions, for instance a php page with a .cfm extension, or a jsp page with a .aspx extension! But all this depends on the client's preferences as well, and common sense. Businesses like to see .aspx on other business sites, developers (not including the rare breed of microsoft fanboys) like to see the .php extension in the url, and... I guess myspace fanatics would feel at home with a .cfm?fuseaction=this.that url.
    What? Who gets off on URLs and why would you do that? I hope you're the only one supporting your apps.

    BTW, Myspace actually uses ASP.NET now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    So really, just be flexible. Not everybody has the same crazy setup I do server-wise to make cross-platform/third-party libraries a non-issue, but always be prepared to handle any situation.
    Yeah, be flexible if that's what your business requires. I stick to the platforms that I'm good at (.NET and Rails) and I like. I'm not going to break my back to support an environment that I may get one day. My clients are just not interested in PHP right now and I'd probably turn down any request for PHP work. I'm not a jack of all trades master of none. I have my specialties and I stick to them. Now, if I had a PHP dev contact, I would obviously funnel the project through me, but I would not take on the work myself.
    Shane Bauer
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  22. #47
    SitePoint Enthusiast Anthony_c's Avatar
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by sbauer View Post
    I thought the trolls that spelled Microsoft or MS with a $ were dying off too. I guess not.

    Yeah because EVERYBODY knows that *nix is losing market share to windows server 2008 which has been the standard for hosting for so long.

    Tomcat is the least of the problems with Java web applications. Every time I work on a Java web application, I cringe. Every framework (Struts, Spring, etc) is usually very heavy with XML configuration. I cannot stand it.

    Yeah, frameworks are absolutely necessary, secure, and required to run a fully optimized/satisfactional web application.

    I find that a little hard to believe.

    You won't once you have as many years of experience of these things as I do.

    What? Who gets off on URLs and why would you do that? I hope you're the only one supporting your apps.

    Actually I can almost guarantee you've been to at least 10 of my hosted clients who support my applications heavily. Find something else to be a ***** about.

    BTW, Myspace actually uses ASP.NET now.

    But they apparently get off on URLs since these ASP pages use the .cfm extension as well as the fusebox querystring parameters. But I hope they're the only ones supporting their apps.

    Yeah, be flexible if that's what your business requires. I stick to the platforms that I'm good at (.NET and Rails) and I like. I'm not going to break my back to support an environment that I may get one day. My clients are just not interested in PHP right now and I'd probably turn down any request for PHP work. I'm not a jack of all trades master of none. I have my specialties and I stick to them. Now, if I had a PHP dev contact, I would obviously funnel the project through me, but I would not take on the work myself.
    If you can only be good at one and only one language, go ahead, I won't stop you, there's real competition out there to worry about. And as far as the rails framework goes, I always love to see avid supporters of proprietary software not hesitate to use open source.

    I just love the maturity of these over the WAN forums.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    Yeah because EVERYBODY knows that *nix is losing market share to windows server 2008 which has been the standard for hosting for so long.
    He never said *nix is losing market share to Windows Server 2008. He said Windows Server is gaining more popularity, especially with the release of 2008. There are numbers to prove that the amount of domains using IIS is increasing.

    Yeah, frameworks are absolutely necessary, secure, and required to run a fully optimized/satisfactional web application.
    You're right, they're not. It depends on the framework. Using a framework is about trade offs. My complaint was the XML files, not about anything else.


    You won't once you have as many years of experience of these things as I do.
    Alright?

    Actually I can almost guarantee you've been to at least 10 of my hosted clients who support my applications heavily. Find something else to be a ***** about.
    I just found it awkward that you're renaming your files so they look like a specific technology when it's not.


    But they apparently get off on URLs since these ASP pages use the .cfm extension as well as the fusebox querystring parameters. But I hope they're the only ones supporting their apps.
    No, it's for backwards compatibility. They didn't do it just to make people they're using ColdFusion.

    They did it because:

    1) People have existing links bookmarked and search engines I'm sure have some pages indexed.

    2) The entire site hasn't (or at least when I last read about it) been converted completely to ASP.NET. At the time they were running some existing CFML through BlueDragon.NET.


    And as far as the rails framework goes, I always love to see avid supporters of proprietary software not hesitate to use open source.
    Good.
    Shane Bauer
    .NET and Ruby on Rails

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard Mike Borozdin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_c View Post
    Not as cheap as free. not to mention free upgrade support (recall paying for w2k > w2k3 > w2k8). and don't pay for the "commercial support" from red hat or whoever, nobody really needs that.
    Have you ever heard about Total Cost of Ownership ?

  25. #50
    SitePoint Enthusiast Anthony_c's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Borozdin View Post
    Have you ever heard about Total Cost of Ownership ?
    Have you ever repaired a Windows server after a Windows update?

    didn't think so.


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