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  1. #26
    Adam J Scotts
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    There's a discussion going on about this right here: http://www.positivespaceblog.com/archives/99design-stoops-to-new-low-attempts-propaganda

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo_dk View Post
    If "Design Contests" are so bad, then why start a "Coding Contest"?
    To balance things out. It devalues creative design. Just because someone can code web apps doesn't mean they can make it look professional and be user-friendly.

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard jimbo_dk's Avatar
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    So your solution for something that devalues design is to create a simillar one that devalues coding?
    Winners Respond. Losers React.
    Singapore Web Designer

  4. #29
    SitePoint Addict RonnieFizz's Avatar
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    ha....

    well it sound to me that some of you are totally confused about your career choice. Coding and designing are two different skillset totally...

    for instance...
    a CH would post a brief and a million designers can come in and get their mouses wet with different approach.. and get a million result.

    as for a million people who code..they all have to fall under the brief or they are totally off.

    I can understand that the contest idea disvalue somewhat because it basically put eveyone in the same category as for an amateur in the same contest as a professional and it really sux to see the amateur getting picked over a pro sometimes...
    However it only shows where improvement is needed.. and also skills are not everything and in the designing world ..talent+inspirations+skills are what really matters...

    so yeha to make it clear ...
    THERE'S NO WAY NO HOW YOU CAN EVER COMPARE THE TWO TO PUT IN THE SAME BASKET......



    -Ron
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  5. #30
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    99Designs is surely a cool money spinning business for its owners. And thats why they keep justifying it really. Well, if you are getting money out of something,anyone would...

  6. #31
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    When I first read this article, sadly, the first thought that came to mind was "here's another cynical attempt by Sinclair & Co. to dupe designers into thinking that giving away their work is a good idea. This has been the main Sitepoint business model since Marketplace (you can make $ selling your websites for $100 a piece!) It's not true. You're better off working for min. wage in a Korean animation sweatshop.

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    This isn't an article, it's a press release. What a load of self-indulgent, self-serving marketing BS.

  8. #33
    SitePoint Guru mattymcg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox View Post
    This isn't an article, it's a press release. What a load of self-indulgent, self-serving marketing BS.
    shadowbox are you suggesting that Richard's opinions are not his own?

    As I stated on the Positive Space Blog that Adam J Scotts linked to above, IMO there is loads of propaganda on the Web about why design contests are supposedly evil. Not everyone agrees with that stance, though. Why shouldn't Richard's views, as a designer who competes in design contests, enjoys it, and is successful as a result, also be heard?

    Funnily enough, when I transcribed our conversation, I actually toned down Richard's enthusiasm to make it read less like we were paying him to trumpet superlatives for 99designs. He really just is that passionate about the contests and about design, though, so who am I to dampen that enthusiasm?
    I design beautiful, usable interfaces. Oh, and I wrote a kids' book.
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Guru mattymcg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calydon View Post
    When I first read this article, sadly, the first thought that came to mind was "here's another cynical attempt by Sinclair & Co. to dupe designers into thinking that giving away their work is a good idea. This has been the main Sitepoint business model since Marketplace (you can make $ selling your websites for $100 a piece!) It's not true. You're better off working for min. wage in a Korean animation sweatshop.
    Richard's experience, which is very real, would suggest otherwise. If contests don't work for you, don't enter them -- it's entirely your choice.

    I'm not entirely sure what your argument is here. The two common arguments against design contests are that it devalues the design industry, resulting in clients expecting more for their dollar (Richard's experience is the opposite) and exploitation, that designers are misled into doing work they should be paid for, but are not (it's their choice, and it's very clear from the outset that there is a chance you may not win). How does taking a stab at our marketplace factor into this? It seems to be bordering on an off-topic discussion, in my view.

    By the way, Brendon Sinclair wrote a kit for us, and is the author of the SitePoint Tribune newsletter, but is not affiliated and does not benefit in any way from the success of 99designs. For that matter, as a SitePoint employee, neither do I.
    I design beautiful, usable interfaces. Oh, and I wrote a kids' book.
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    Buy my book, Charlie Weatherburn and the Flying Machine.

  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard jimbo_dk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattymcg View Post
    Funnily enough, when I transcribed our conversation, I actually toned down Richard's enthusiasm to make it read less like we were paying him to trumpet superlatives for 99designs. He really just is that passionate about the contests and about design, though, so who am I to dampen that enthusiasm?
    No matter how many times you try to explain it, publishing an interview like that with a (cheesy) title like that would definitely lead people to believe its all marketing hype.
    Winners Respond. Losers React.
    Singapore Web Designer

  11. #36
    doing my best to help c2uk's Avatar
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    I'm still wondering why Richard himself hasn't come on here to comment on some of the criticism expressed.
    Dan G
    Marketing Strategist & Consultant

  12. #37
    SitePoint Member designabot's Avatar
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    hi guys,
    @c2uk. I was notified of this link. I have explained myself a bit more here and answered some 'trickier' questions from this blogger who is very much against design contest.

    www.positivespaceblog.com/archives/99design-stoops-to-new-low-attempts-propaganda/

  13. #38
    doing my best to help c2uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by designabot View Post
    hi guys,
    @c2uk. I was notified of this link. I have explained myself a bit more here and answered some 'trickier' questions from this blogger who is very much against design contest.

    http://www.positivespaceblog.com/arc...ts-propaganda/
    Thanks Richard and good luck with your business.

    for everybody else, here's the link directly to his reply, the blogpost itself as well as the other replies are also worthwhile reading for anybody interested.

    Richard/designabog's reply
    Dan G
    Marketing Strategist & Consultant

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattymcg View Post
    shadowbox are you suggesting that Richard's opinions are not his own?
    Step back a little, Matt, of course I'm not suggesting that, I'm sure Richard was telling it how he sees it. What I'm clearly saying is that a piece like that should be placed here, not in the articles section of the site, not when it is clearly a piece of pure marketing hype, an attempt to simply justify Sitepoint's sister site 99designs.com against the no-spec brigade.

    How on earth did you think people would think otherwise? Thing is, it's clear from your comments (about toning it down and the disclaimer in the article) that you guys were obviously concerned it may come across this way, yet you still decided to publish it as an 'article'.

    A better 'article' IMO would have been one that presented both sides of the argument, containing interviews with both sides of the fence. As I say, it simply comes across as a press release - I however have no doubt that you truly did find someone more than happy to big-up 99designs.com, but that's not really the point, is it?

  15. #40
    SitePoint Guru mattymcg's Avatar
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    OK, thanks for clarifying, shadowbox. What you were saying wasn't clear to me, so thanks for elaborating. Perhaps interviewing someone from NO!SPEC and presenting that viewpoint in the same article might have provided balance. I guess I just jumped at an opportunity to tell Richard's story without more diligently researching the full picture. I had my reasons (see below). That said, no-one jumps on NO!SPEC articles suggesting that they should be presenting the other side of the story, so it didn't come to mind at the time, but point taken.

    it is clearly a piece of pure marketing hype, an attempt to simply justify Sitepoint's sister site 99designs.com against the no-spec brigade.
    The thing is, I wasn't attempting to justify anything, as I don't think I need to. Believe it or not, the article commissioning process didn't pan out as follows:

    1. Let's find a designer who is pro-contests, so we can give 99designs a plug
    2. Interview said designer and only ask questions that give a result we want to hear
    3. Publish


    It was more like:

    1. Richard met the 99designs guys because he happened to live in Melbourne and was runner-up in the 99designs logo contest
    2. I heard about it and arranged to have a chat with him to hear about his experiences, because it wasn't a conventional "designer success" story
    3. Record our lunchtime conversation verbatim
    4. Painfully transcribe every word and publish


    There really wasn't much more behind preparing this article than that. Of course we were delighted to have a passionate user voicing superlatives, but it didn't cross my mind to issue it as a press release because 1. I don't work for 99designs, and 2. We didn't orchestrate Richard's answers. My motivation to publish Richard's story was, to be completely honest, to bring some balance to the many articles that are already out there criticizing design contests, so rehashing that ground all over again didn't cross my mind. Instead, here was an alternative view point that I knew would generate discussion, and that's why I thought it worth pursuing. You'll note that I did link to the NO!SPEC site in the article, which will provide readers with plenty of reading material on the topic (you yourself referred to them as "a brigade", which suggests that you agree that there is in fact plenty of information about why "spec work" is wrong is out there). It was an interview, so the reason you didn't hear Richard waving the NO!SPEC flag because that's not what he believes in.

    Like I said, I'm more than happy to interview someone who is from NO!SPEC in a future article—I'm sure it would make for a good read. I just figured that had been done to death elsewhere, but if you think it would be worthwhile, I'll whack it on the list of things to commission. No really.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo_dk View Post
    No matter how many times you try to explain it, publishing an interview like that with a (cheesy) title like that would definitely lead people to believe its all marketing hype.
    What can I say? I didn't think it was cheesy (controversial maybe) but we have done some doozies in the past. Writing headlines that people will click on is an art form. I don't pretend to be any kind of guru, but obviously this one struck a chord.
    I design beautiful, usable interfaces. Oh, and I wrote a kids' book.
    Follow me on Twitter.
    Read my blog.
    Buy my book, Charlie Weatherburn and the Flying Machine.

  16. #41
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    Design contests I think are great, they put you in a position to work much harder, it can def help you improve your design skills, at the same time your probably not being paid enough. I don't do it much, for me it gets frustrating, I have no clue why, but I think I will start entering contests, just to improve my skills quick... I think the negatives are mainly for experienced designers, who are good and already get paid well. But this to new designers/students is a good opportunity I would say, because it gets them ready for dealing with clients, even though its just online, as well as meeting the clients needs, it is a contest, but you are given guidelines right?

    Anyway just my thoughts.

  17. #42
    Posts rarely lloydi's Avatar
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    I made use of 99 Designs a while back (but have yet to implement the winning result - backlog!). What I actually found was that it prompted a lot of lame designs and just a few good ones. For those who did a good job, there was almost certainly competition. For those that failed to attract attention, it must surely provide a proverbial kick up the backside to up ther game.

    The thing is, if I hadn't used 99 Designs, I would have designed the logo myself, just as I have many times; I'm just not that good at it (although arguably I could have done a better job than some of the entries!). No-one lost out by taking part in my competition, as if I *hadn't* run the competition, no-one would have lost out on a big payout.
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  18. #43
    Unoriginal
    SitePoint Community Guest
    CarsonScreens = 2ndNature design studio mark?


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