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  1. #126
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    disputed territory

    Originally posted by qamar


    Akhol, when I refer to Palestinian lands I refer to the borders set out by UN resolutions.

    Like I said, DISPUTED territories!

  2. #127
    Digital Warrior Renegade's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    But I just think that Barak was willing to find a middle way, Arafat wasn't.
    I totally agree with that one Itay. Wasn't it Barak who made a peace offer to Arafat, in which Arafat rejected? I'm talking specifically around the summer of 2000, camp david, with Barak, Arafat, and Clinton.

    I think part of the deal called for giving up half of Jerusalem. Granted it wasn't what Arafat wanted, but it was certainly more of an effort than Arafat has ever done. Too bad he rejected it, we might not be where we are today.


    If anyone has any specific questions to me that I missed - please tell me.


    I still have one. Not necessarily for you though, but you can answer.

    To anyone who says that Isreal is occuping territories illegally, I ask this:

    Wasn't the West Bank, and other parts, occupied by Isreal as a result of the 6 day WAR in 1967? hmmmm. It seems to me that if Isreal is supposed to give back lands gained during war, 30 years AFTER the fact, then I guess we should ALL be changing our borders around.

    That would mean the US should turn Arizona, New Mexico and Texas back over to Mexico, because we are illegally occuping it. Every border in the world would change.

    Now, If I am mistaken, I apologize, and would love to be corrected. If not, then maybe someone could enlighten me as to why this double standard exists.

    --cheers

    PS:
    11dkug - I was using your own metaphor to address your post. I guess you didn't pick up on that. I'm not the one who misread your post, you misread mine
    --There's my 1.5 cents, now where is my change!?!?

  3. #128
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    suburbs, settlements, bias

    Originally posted by t0m|ta


    Do please correct me if I'm wrong, with so many resolutions and "peace plans" I'm getting a bit lost.
    But I had the impression that according to the last agreements some of the "jewish" settlements on the palestinian "whatever" were going to be dismantled and this was going on until Sharon became prime minister. From them on they have not only been dismantled but encourared. That's the news we got here.

    ¿What's the truth?
    According to the Oslo accords, an arangement about Jewish settlement was supposed to be agreed upon at a certain stage of the process, towards the end I think. Until that stage in the implementation of the agreements, Oslo did not restrict the building of homes for Jewish people. Since Arafat did not accept Barak's offer of a Palestinian state, which would have placed under his control much of the disputed areas where Jews wanted to build and the Arabs didn't want them to, limitations on the construction of Israeli suburban communities was never implemented by as a treaty obligation. But its important to remember that there was agreement on the Israeli side to reach that stage of the process and implement these limitations.

    Of course there were periods where construction of these homes was frozen, as part of confidence building measures and various agreements intended to get the peace process going again and help the PA by giving them a bit of an advance on the concessions that, according to the master plan of the Oslo accords, was due at a latter stage. In practice, since the PA so often zig zagged in its commitment to fighting terrorism and removing state sponsored racist incitment, Israel did not feel it had to maintain these freezes, especially during Netanyahu's administration, since he tried to conducted a policy of reciprocity and incentives.

    My personal impression is that in many cases construction of these suburban communities has continued, although the peace process delayed it considerably. there were however some projects that upon getting frozen, were never unfrozen an in practice, have been cancelled.

    Originally posted by t0m|ta

    Originally posted by akohl
    The current war is in defense of lesser Israel, the right of people to live in security within any borders that might be defined by agreement that might be reached with the Palestinians.
    I think this is exactly the problem. International public opinion is not believing this, from the moment Israel's tanks are in the palestine's land (or whatever you call them )

    Part of the problem I think is that people don't understand the Jewish and Palestinian areas under discussion are so close that they are basically the same place! Israeli tanks don't have to be driven or transported to a different land in order to operate in the current conflict. We are talking about a five minute drive! The settlements are not like distant frontier communites that colonialists used to build in order to establish a foothold in a distant country or in the case of the united States, in order to expand its own borders. The Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria are suburban communities located in areas which make sense from a pure real estate development point of view. The proof of this is that they are, in some cases, even more expensive than comparable units located within the the major cities that they surround.

    Lets face it. International public opinion is based on misleading imagery of a strong expansive Israel making deep incursions into a distant land.

    From our perspective, we are fighting on our own front doorstep against an exceedingly cruel enemy that takes pride in its successfull attacks on civilians.




    Originally posted by Qamar
    Ok, I've done some sufing, ignored all the accounts from palestinian sources and come across this.

    http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...sID=0&listSrc=Y

    haaretz daily is a daily Israeli newspaper.
    I think its a good idea to look at reports written by the other side. I wanted to post some material on the topic of education for peace and found that when I looked at the material written from other perspectives, I found that things were not as clear as I first thought so I have posponed posting on this topic untill I get around to reading up on it and thinking about it a bit more.

    But don't think that when you read an Israeli newspaper you are garanteed to get something which reflects the perspectives of the government or most of the people here. Ha'aretz is a very left leaning paper and sometimes forwards positions which are exteemely indistinguishable from those of the PA! that's my take on things. Itay is bound to disagree with me on this.

    But my point here is that you mustn't judge the accuracy of a report on the likely biases of the authors. Truth must be judged on its own merits. And I think that the reliability of the IDF report I posted is self evident to anyone who reads it critically. that's why I thought it would be a valuble informational resource for sitepointers, most of whom do not serve in the Israeli Defence Forces.

  4. #129
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    Re: disputed territory

    Originally posted by akohl


    Like I said, DISPUTED territories!
    If you talk like that then I suppose Hamas would say All of Israel is 'disputed' territories...

    If the world is going to have any law and order than its going to have to abide by UN resolutions.

    Double standards are what the arabs have always complained of and with good reason. Quick to place sanctions on Iraq but let Israel carry on as normal. (I hate saddam as much as everyone else)

    No point in keeping looking back at history...what matters is what happens today...


    qamar

  5. #130
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by qamar


    If you talk like that then I suppose Hamas would say All of Israel is 'disputed' territories...

    If the world is going to have any law and order than its going to have to abide by UN resolutions.
    qamar
    The UN has expressed its opinion about this particular dispute. Actually, if I remember correctly, the UN never did state an opinion as to exactly where the line of territorial compromise is to be drawn.

    But you are right about Hamas. They don't recognize Israel in any borders. My sense is that neither do the the other Palestinian groups. How else can you explain why Arafat refused to make peace with Israel when he was offered a Palestinian State by Barak? Is obvious that the West Bank and Gazza do not satisfy his claims.

    But Israel's soverignty has been recognized internationally, even by most of the Arabs.This fact, and not some UN resolution, is what takes it out of the category of "disputed territory".

    Today, just the part which has not been annexed to Israel may reasonabley be considered disputed.

    I think its my land. They think its their land, and the UN can also express an opinion. But it remains disputed until somebody decides to annex it and succeeds in winning international recognition.

    This has not happened yet. So, for the time being, it should be be refered to as disputed territory, not occupied Palestinian territory.

  6. #131
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Israeli army announces it is beginning a withdrawal from West Bank towns of Qalqilya and Tulkarem. White House calls pullout "a start" but not enough to meet Bush's demands.

    -CNN
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  7. #132
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    I think i'm not understanding you very well Akhol, from what you say I understand you consider "disputed territores" only those which have not already been invaded, colonized or "settled".


    strong expansive Israel making deep incursions into a distant land.
    I don't think that's the case in Europe, countries here are small. In some countries you can go for a 5 minutes walk with your dog and buy the bread in another country, but that doesn't mean you build your homes there (or if you do, you consider your self as living in the neighbours country). We have villages that are half from one country and half from another and before the European Union you had to go to grocery with you passport

    Even if the frontier is 5 cm away from your doorstep that does not give you the right to build there and expand your territory by "acomplished facts".

    So your argument about disputed territories and "nearness" does not convince me of its being correct.

  8. #133
    SitePoint Member Aussies-Online.com's Avatar
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    Angry Anyhow, I ask you to look back and see that the whole current situation in the middle


    You have to be joking!
    This war has been going on for 50 years!
    I am sick to death from hearing about it. Solve it one way or another and get it over and done with.
    It is about two people sharing one country who simply cannot learn to live together. Shame on the both of you.
    Australia has 132 Nationalities and we all live happily together.
    If you cannot find a way to live together, divide the country in two. Rebuild the Berlin wall in the middle if you have to. Do what ever you have to do, but fix it. If you don't, someone will soon do it for you. Because we are all very tired of it.

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  9. #134
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    With respect Patrick, the Aboriginal record there in the past (and in some cases present) does not bear out your statement.
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  10. #135
    SitePoint Member Aussies-Online.com's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TheOriginalH
    With respect Patrick, the Aboriginal record there in the past (and in some cases present) does not bear out your statement.
    How can you possibly find any comparison? We do not kill each other, do we? We have not done so for an hundred years. We have learned to live together. I know they are still some problems, but lets not get off the subject here.

    Patrick
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  11. #136
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by t0m|ta
    I think i'm not understanding you very well Akhol, from what you say I understand you consider "disputed territores" only those which have not already been invaded, colonized or "settled".
    If an area is part of a country, then it's status is not disputed. When Iraq invaded Kuwait it occupied Kuwaiti land. When Israel occupied Judea and Samaria as the outcome a defensive war, it was not occupying lands of another country as the previous occupier did not win international recognition for their annexation of that land.

    Its not a question of invaded, colonized or settled.
    Its a question of annexation, that is to say incorporation of that land into your own country and winning international recognition for the act of annexation.

  12. #137
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Israeli soldiers killed in bomb lab explosion in West Bank.

    edit: As Israel pulled back from two West Bank towns and entered another, 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in the West Bank town of Jenin. An Israeli general says a suicide bomber blew himself up in an explosives-laden alley. -CNN
    Last edited by Indian; Apr 9, 2002 at 15:06.
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  13. #138
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    suicide bomber?

    An Israeli general says a suicide bomber blew himself up in an explosives-laden alley
    The press reports I have seen also mention this act, but many other reports are saying that a building was booby trapped and the soldiers were killed in a gun battle after the initial explosion.

    (While pointing out that 13 'soldiers' were killed, for parity, shouldn't you have mentioned the 200(confirmed) Palestinians that have been killed?)

    Guess this story is another of those that it depends where you live and what version you get, sad, very very sad.
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
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  14. #139
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Guess this story is another of those that it depends where you live and what version you get, sad, very very sad.
    Actually its reported in the newspaper I subscribe like this:
    Al Jeseera TV reported that 13 Israeli soldiers killed in a Palestinian terrorist attack.
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  15. #140
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    Exclamation THEY ARE ALL LIARS

    The media lies, period.
    Believe no one.

    BTW - I am on Israels side, I know how it's going to end

  16. #141
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    Re: THEY ARE ALL LIARS

    Originally posted by z7
    The media lies, period.
    Believe no one.

    BTW - I am on Israels side, I know how it's going to end
    Yeah? Why don't you enlighten us with your wisdom.

    Qamar

  17. #142
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    z7, that's quite a big statement. Out of curiosity, were you planning to back it up?

    I know what you mean about 'how it is going to end'. The Israelis have more firepower and technology and could easily crush palestine, in my belief.
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  18. #143
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    The Israelis have more firepower and technology and could easily crush palestine
    History tells us otherwise Goober, no matter how suppressed you make a people someday they will rise together.

    Actually its reported in the newspaper I subscribe like this: Al Jeseera TV reported that 13 Israeli soldiers killed in a Palestinian terrorist attack.
    Indian, my point entirely.
    All press quarters report the 13 deaths of Israeli soldiers but few dare mention that the Palestinian death toll now stands at 230 (BBC news 24 @ 22.00pm).
    Are all 230 Palestinians murdered "terrorists" ?
    Are all 13 Israelis murdered Soldiers?

    I suggest we already know the answer to that!
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  19. #144
    will code HTML for food Michel V's Avatar
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    From:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...681118,00.html

    Ruchana Marton, psychiatrist with the Physicians for Human Rights in Israel
    I woke up at 4.15 this morning, filled with anger. On Sunday, we, the Physicians for Human Rights in Israel, gave a press conference on the problem of ambulances in the West Bank. The Palestinian ambulances are not allowed to move in the West Bank and people just don't know about this. In the past few months, 165 ambulances have been shot at, 135 medical workers have been wounded and eight medical people have been killed while working. One Palestinian ambulance was allowed to go into the West Bank and pick up a wounded man, but wasn't allowed to drive back, so the man bled to death.

    Only one Israeli channel covered the conference, but that's pretty good as the Israeli media usually ignores us. However, at the end of the news report they put the reaction of the spokesman of the IDF army and he said that ambulances are allowed in: every single word he said was a lie, and that was what people will remember. Being angry is the only word for it that I know in English, but I was exploding.

    I am seeing many patients who have been greatly affected by the crisis, mainly women because women go to therapy more than men. The men tend to be less emotional than the women, so when they get upset it is like a real breakdown, because they have not been taught how to have an emotional outlet like the women. I have seen a huge increase in depression among my patients. There is a collective depression all over the place because people can see no future, and I see many people who are having nervous breakdowns. Yesterday I saw an 18-year-old man who asked me to release him from the army - not for political reasons but because of pure fear and depression. It was very personal, not political, and this is quite new in Israel.
    Denying access to ambulances is, according to my country's laws, denial of assistance to endangered people. In my country, this is a crime of the same level as murder. In the case of Israel vs Palestine, this can be considered a war crime.

  20. #145
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I have had enough now.

    Whilst I have had sympathy for the Israeli people for a long time, and am 100% against terrorist attacks by the Palestinian extremists, the situation has got ridiculous. Arafat has been under house arrest for how long now? There has evidently been no running water in his building for 11 days -> how on earth is he supposed to "control" random terrorist entities?

    How is it justified to try and militarily dominate an entire race, denying them basic human rights (medical etc), based on the actions of a few extremists from within their ranks? It's almost akin to electricuting a nation because you know one of them committed murder.

    The Jewish race suffered in one of the greatest atrocities in history half a century ago - of all the people in the world you would think they'd be the least likely to commit such a thing, yet under the "leadership" of Sharon they seem intent on massacre. Enough.

    I find myself once again sickened at humanity.
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  21. #146
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    Originally posted by Shin Ma


    Denying access to ambulances is, according to my country's laws, denial of assistance to endangered people. In my country, this is a crime of the same level as murder. In the case of Israel vs Palestine, this can be considered a war crime.

    I mentioned this in my earlier posts but some members felt they could not believe that the Israelis were stopping the red cross from reaching the injured.

    It should also be mentioned that the red cross have constantly complained of Israeli soldiers firing on them/

    It is now being more widely reported and I for one will be protesting wherever I can for an investigation into this flagarent breach of a peoples human rights.

    Qamar
    Last edited by qamar; Apr 11, 2002 at 04:56.

  22. #147
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Its not a question of invaded, colonized or settled.

    Its a question of annexation, that is to say incorporation of that land into your own country and winning international recognition for the act of annexation
    Your entire post is just pure demagogy. You can call it a "nice stroll in the country". But it will continue being the invasion of other's people land and the planned extermination of another nation (not country because, we europeans (the league of nations) deprived them of it.

    The European Union is studing suspending the commercial treaties with Israel, and Israel response has been, to say it will be considered "An act of war".
    Will Israel start bombing the European Union just because we do not want to do business with them?


    Really this has gone too far. Has the whole nation gone nuts?

    As TheOriginalH said:


    It's almost akin to electricuting a nation because you know one of them committed murder.
    Perverting Democracy in order to defend it is just pure totalitarian demagogy. And using tanks against civilians is plain murder,

    "programmed assasinations" against "suspect" terrorists is plain murder.

    Deniying medical care is plain murder.

    Shooting at medical crews is plain murder.

    Shooting at the press is plain murder.

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Too many deaths


  23. #148
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    The following are excerpts from former PM Netanyahuh's presentation to the United nations and the US senate. they are worth reading and thinking about:

    For more details, see;
    http://netanyahu.org/netspeacinse.html
    No one, of course, would dare suggest that the United States was the guilty party in World War II because German casualties, which, by the way, included millions of civilians, were 20 times higher than American casualties. So too, only a twisted and corrupt logic would paint America and Britain as the aggressors in the current war because Afghan casualties are reported by some-I don’t have conclusive figures-to have well exceeded the death toll of September 11th.



    Last week, the government of Israel began to take the second of these vital steps. Rather than bomb Palestinian-populated cities and towns from the air-an operation that would have claimed thousands of civilian casualties-the Israeli army is taking on a much greater risk by using ground forces that painstakingly make their way through the hornet’s nest of Palestinian terror. But instead of praising Israel for seeking to minimize civilian casualties through careful and deliberate action, most of the world’s governments shamelessly condemn it. For seven months, many of these governments have rightly supported the war against Afghan terror, yet after only seven days, their patience for Israel’s war against terror has run out.

  24. #149
    SitePoint Addict z7's Avatar
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    He will ride on a White Horse

    Originally posted by goober
    z7, that's quite a big statement. Out of curiosity, were you planning to back it up?

    I know what you mean about 'how it is going to end'. The Israelis have more firepower and technology and could easily crush palestine, in my belief.
    Simple really - Israel is the chosen nation of the Living God (of Abraham and Isaac - mine to )... You saw what happened in the 6 day war, well look what is going to happen when the whole world gangs up on Israel (which they will)...

    Revelation 19:11-16
    And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
    His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
    He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
    And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
    From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
    And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

    Time for Baby J to get medieval on yo asses!

  25. #150
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    quote from akohl
    Rather than bomb Palestinian-populated cities and towns from the air-an operation that would have claimed thousands of civilian casualties-the Israeli army is taking on a much greater risk by using ground forces

    Akhol

    You might have missed reports like this in the news

    reports from inside the Israeli-occupied towns suggest that the civilian infrastructure - roads, water pipes and the electricity supply - is also being badly damaged, or destroyed, by the actions of the Israeli Defence Force.

    Officials from the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees have told the BBC that the agency's staff are reporting "wanton destruction" of Palestinian infrastructure across the West Bank.

    There have also been reports of looting of food and personal items by Israeli soldiers carrying out house to house searches.

    "We do have confirmed reports of Red Crescent ambulances not being allowed to pick up the wounded from the streets and of a private hospital being shelled," B'Tselem spokesman Leore Yavne said.

    Adam Shapiro, a US national and a worker with the International Solidarity Movement, spoke to the BBC from Ramallah:

    "I've seen tanks roll straight over cars and destroy walls for no apparent reason. Many homes and building are shot through with bullet and shell holes," he said.
    The full report from the BBC can be read here:



    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1913156.stm


    Qamar
    Last edited by qamar; Apr 11, 2002 at 15:30.


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