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  1. #101
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Hummmm. Qamar, Tzaporah Ryter seems to have quite a press agent to get 76 hits on Google in roughly twenty-four hours. Despite on several occasions she stated that phone service was cut, she was able to e-mail this story out? How does she know what the American press is saying (which is described inaccurately, btw)? Huddled around a TV during a power outage trying to shield the glow as to not arise the suspicions of soldiers perhaps? I don't know if that account is falsified or not, but there are many questions that I need answered before I can personally think that it's credible.

    H, the words "freedom fighter" and "terrorism" aren't in the least exchangeable. First of all terrorism is a means while a freedom fighter is an actor. Nonetheless, I feel charitable, so I will indulge you. I gather that "come up trumps" means "win" (one of those colloquiums you're so fond of, I guess ;-), correct? Well, assuming that the Nazis did win WWII, then I think I would hold those who hastily hid and ferried Jews to Britain in much higher esteem than those who chose to attack office workers and restaurant patrons. On to point one: I find dictionary.com more reliable than unattributed quotes ("one man's terrorist...") to base an academic discussion on. As for the second point: when did it become acceptable to kill reservists? They weren't acting against the suicide bomber or the sniper, there is no realistic claim that those actions are defensive.

    Bob, at the risk of annoying Andy, you're right about the current action being a kind of terrorism, in my view. Bringing hostile military equipment inside residential areas is a form of terrorism. I'm of the belief that not all terrorism is done by factions and small groups; governments inflect terror, too. Not all of terrorism is lethal either. To me, the MAD (mutual assured destruction) mentality is a form of terrorism: the Soviets never had to launch a single missile at the United States for generations of kids to fear Nuclear or Bio/Chemical attacks (I suppose the inverse is true as well). There's a wide range of actions that I consider terrorism. On the invasion/incursion thing, I think the most appropriate word was used: all indications point to this as temporary. Perhaps "invasion" is over dramatizing the situation a bit. Either way it's moot because several U.S. news agencies have used invasion, some use incursion and some use both.

    Anyway, I'm really interested in hearing more on the idea of "transfer." Could either Itay, Andy or someone else speak to it? Do 46% of Israelis really favor it? How likely is it to become practiced? Who are the ones trumpeting it? Etc. It would be one of the most tragic ironies and conundrums of human history if it happened.

    ~~Ian

  2. #102
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Israeli army says it has killed the man who planned the Passover terror attack in Netanya.

    -CNN
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  3. #103
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    a brief story

    Take a large family with its quarrels and disagreements like most if not all families. Now take the younger brother of this family he works at McDonalds for $5.50/hr unlike his older brothers that work for their uncle for $10/hr. This younger brother so full of ambition but without many resources lives his life without too much trouble, sitting in his small room, the only place where he truly feels at home and secure. Now have the uncle who is extremely wealthy come up to the family and tell the elders that because he is in control of the livelihood of this family (because he gives employment to the older brothers) he would like to move his friend’s son into their younger son’s room. A room not worth much but the only place dear to the son. The family with no other options doesn’t say much except for a subtle negativity towards the friend’s son. Now this uncle’s friend’s son starts to fill the room with his own stuff and starts to get into the little brother’s space as well. The little brother asks for the help of the elders but they refuse, they say we can’t make your uncle angry he buy’s too much of our oil. The little brother with no help and no resources uses the only thing he has, his body his soul to hurt the uncle’s friends son, he uses suicide bombers against the 800+ tanks, the 50+ F16s, the 1000’s of well equipped and well trained soldiers.

  4. #104
    Digital Warrior Renegade's Avatar
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    Big brother might have moved in and taken over little brothers space. True, and that is unfortunate.

    Perhaps if big brother and little brother would have sat down and talked as soon as big brother started moving in, there wouldn't be a war today.

    However, big brother only took little brothers personal space(which no doubt was important). But by little brother taking big brothers LIFE(human life above all else), the little guy had taken more than the big guy had taken in the first place...and voila! war

    Just because I used to get beat up, and had my lunch money stolen from me when I was a little kid in school; wouldn't give me the right to bring a gun to school the next day and kill him.

    --cheers
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  5. #105
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    dude you missed the point do you really want me to put little notes in my post that say exactly when i stopped talking about a brother and when i started talking about the bullying of a much powerful government over a less power full one. anyways i guess i might have to:

    This is where i stopped talking about the little brother and started talking about the governments
    The little brother asks for the help of the elders but they refuse, they say we can’t make your uncle angry he buy’s too much of our oil. The little brother with no help and no resources uses the only thing he has, his body his soul to hurt the uncle’s friends son, he uses suicide bombers against the 800+ tanks, the 50+ F16s, the 1000’s of well equipped and well trained soldiers.
    this is where i stopped writing all together

  6. #106
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Hummmm. Qamar, Tzaporah Ryter seems to have quite a press agent to get 76 hits on Google in roughly twenty-four hours. Despite on several occasions she stated that phone service was cut, she was able to e-mail this story out?
    I can't say if its true or made up. What I can say is that I've seen enough reports from westerners who managed to get out and have said similar things.

    The comedian jeremy hardy was one and there was a really disturbed japanese woman who said she saw palestinians being killed by the IDF (Israeli Defence Force)

    Anyway, as I said before the news will all probably come out after the Israeli army leaves the areas.

    Also Sharon with his actions has now probably created hundreds of new recruits as sucide bombers.

    Another bit of news. Nobel's regrets on Peres award

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1912953.stm


    Qamar


    qamar

  7. #107
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    11dkug, just use paragraphs and we will have no problem.

    I think that the whole terrorist vs. freedom fighter thing is all about your perspective.

    I am sure that if the term was in common use at the time, the British would have accused the Americans of being terrorists for the Boston tea party, and the declaration of independence itself. On the other side of the pond, we hailed them as freedom fighters.

    In the US Civil War, the north probably regarded the south as barbaric terrorists, but plantation owners undoubtedly felt that they were freedom fighters.

    How do you define a freedom fighter? As a terrorist whose actions eventually turn out positive, as in the revolutionary war heros' situation? By this logic, how would we figure out whether the world would have become a better place if said terrorist didn't commit their crime?

    Or is a freedom fighter simply someone who fights for what they believe in? This would make Al Qaeda freedom fighters, as they no doubt have hundreds of millions of people who agree with their goals and who would benefit if their goals were achieved.

    See? We can't universally label someone as a terrorist, or as a freedom fighter. It all depends on one's perspective. If you are bin Laden, then you think that Al Qaeda are freedom fighters (also, if you are bin Laden, I need your home address so I can, uh, get my $25 mil tax return, yeah...). If you are sensible...well, there's my bias showing...if you aren't in support of ruthlessly killing innocent people, then you would probably regard Al Qaeda as terrorists.

    The quote, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." is possibly one of the most truthful quotes ever. No one is a terrorist and no one is a freedom fighter. You might be a terrorist to half the population, and a freedom fighter to the other half. again, it all depends on perspective.

    p.s. Imagine what these discussions would be like if "Al Qaeda," "terrorism," and "Osama bin Laden" were added to the disallowed list of topics in Godwin's Law.

    edit: The above [url] code isn't working for some reason. Just copy and paste.
    Last edited by qslack; Apr 5, 2002 at 16:39.

  8. #108
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    Fact: Israel is illegaly occupying Palestinian Land

    Fact: Palestinians are trying to get rid of the occupying force

    That in my view makes the Palestinians Freedom Fighters.

    They are fighting for their freedom, right?


    Qamar

  9. #109
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    I believe I am going to leave this thread now - it is come to the point where my country and people are continuingly blamed for several crimes that have not been proven to have taken place.

    My apologies, I'm sure Andy has all the info you need.

    Itay
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  10. #110
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    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    I believe I am going to leave this thread now - it is come to the point where my country and people are continuingly blamed for several crimes that have not been proven to have taken place.

    My apologies, I'm sure Andy has all the info you need.

    Itay
    Itay, your posts have been very interesting and informative, especially since you actually live in Israel. Know that we all disregard posts that don't have valid proof. We realize that some news is biased, some might be faked, etc.

    There have certainly been quite a few postings of possibly faked (not by the posters, but by the originators) or slightly modified as they were passed along, but don't let that discourage you. It doesn't make any impact on most of our posts.

    So, I really hope you decide to stay.

  11. #111
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by qamar
    Fact: Israel is illegaly occupying Palestinian Land

    Fact: Palestinians are trying to get rid of the occupying force

    That in my view makes the Palestinians Freedom Fighters.

    They are fighting for their freedom, right?


    Qamar
    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    I believe I am going to leave this thread now - it is come to the point where my country and people are continuingly blamed for several crimes that have not been proven to have taken place.
    Itay
    Itay, I can understand your decision and I respect it. I was in the same situation before( "India-Pakistan standoff" thread ), because of the stubborn comments of the same person and decided not to post in that thread.
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  12. #112
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    Originally posted by Indian

    Itay, I can understand your decision and I respect it. I was in the same situation before( "India-Pakistan standoff" thread ), because of the stubborn comments of the same person and decided not to post in that thread.
    Indian,

    Thats a personal attack on me and I resent that.

    What do you mean by stubborn? I believe in my views and like everyone else here I have the right to put my point across. I have never personally attacked any member on this forum and to my knowledge I don't think I have ever done that.

    If you can't except someone elses right to except their own views and instead resort to calling them 'stubborn' then maybe you should not make posts in the 'world events' section.

    For what its worth I respect Itay's views. And by debating with him I was learning about the crisis from an Israeli perspective. If he wants to leave the thread thats his decision.

    Do not incite hatred of other members by making comments like you did.

    Qamar

  13. #113
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    I don't hate you, qamar. Why should I?
    I did not call you a stubborn person. I said your comments are stubborn.
    stubborn \Stub"born\, a. [OE. stoburn, stiborn; probably fr. AS. styb a stub. See Stub.] Firm as a stub or stump; stiff; unbending; unyielding; persistent; hence, unreasonably obstinate in will or opinion; not yielding to reason or persuasion; refractory; harsh.
    Thats my view about your "views". You don't like it? Thats OK.
    Thats a personal attack on me
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  14. #114
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    I believe I am going to leave this thread now - it is come to the point where my country and people are continuingly blamed for several crimes that have not been proven to have taken place.

    My apologies, I'm sure Andy has all the info you need.

    Itay
    That would be a shame Itay, your comments and angle are very valuable to the dicussion, whether agreed with or not.

    To be honest, I suspect the whole argument is becoming circular anyway - I don't think we are going to reach a "settlement" - perhaps the politicians aren't as useless as I give them credit for...

    Ian,

    firstly, apologies, didn't even realise that was a coloqialism , thought it was an international saying.
    Secondly,
    They weren't acting against the suicide bomber or the sniper, there is no realistic claim that those actions are defensive.
    - Could be said of the bombing of Afghanistan as well really couldn't it?
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  15. #115
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    you call that hatred?

    Originally posted by Quamar
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by indian
    Itay, I can understand your decision and I respect it. I was in the same situation before( "India-Pakistan standoff" thread ), because of the stubborn comments of the same person and decided not to post in that thread.

    Originally posted by qamar


    Indian,

    Thats a personal attack on me and I resent that.

    Do not incite hatred of other members by making comments like you did.

    Qamar
    Qamar, You evidently live a very sheltered life if you think that Indian's comments incite hatred. May you continue your sheltered childhood far from the horrors of real hatred.

    Incitement of hatred would be more along the lines of distributing unconfirmed reports containing graphic descriptions of Israeli soldiers "speeding across the terrain pulling up from every direction and shooting at the women and children."

    Qamar, that was a disgraceful post.

    You claim that there are so many valid reports of atrocities, you have no trouble believing this
    unconfirmed one. Well, I say that there are so many patently false reports of atrocities that I have no trouble assuming that this one is a fabrication as well.


    Here is a partial list of false reports.

    [url]http://www.idf.il



    PALESTINIAN LIES AS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE STRUGGLE AGAINST ISRAEL - 11
    examples
    IDF Spokesperson - 7 April 2002

    Senior Palestinian officials have been waging a constant campaign of
    disinformation, spreading lies to divert the media's attention from the
    Palestinian Authorities' complicity in terrorist acts. The Palestinian
    Authority seeks to build a web of false accusations against Israel. These
    falsehoods are repeatedly resurrected in the hope that they will be accepted
    by world public opinion, if not by elements in the Middle East. Following
    are some examples of this Palestinian policy against Israel.

    A. Accusing the IDF of Harming Civilians & Holy Places:

    Case #1:

    The Palestinian Claim: Palestinian television claimed in 2 April 2002
    reports that a priest named Jack Amateis was killed and dozens of monks were
    injured in an IDF operation in Bethlehem.

    The facts: According to Reuters on 2 April 2002, sources related to the
    church in Israel denied the above: Reuters announced that "A Selesian
    official told Reuters Amateis later phoned the Vatican embassy in the Holy
    Land, to say he was safe. There was fighting, but there were no victims
    among the Selesians. We can confirm that Amateis is alive, said the
    official".

    The priest himself was interviewed by the MINSA agency (on 3 April,
    according to AFP) and confirmed that he and the nuns in the convent are
    safe.

    On 4 April, the Vatican's Ambassador to Israel, Cardinal Pietro Samari,
    apologized to the Israel Defense Forces for the incorrect and false report
    of the supposed death of a priest in St. Mary's Church in Bethlehem.

    The IDF Spokesperson re-emphasizes that this is another instance of false
    Palestinian propaganda that served to embarrass the Cardinal, the media and
    the entire world.

    Case #2:

    The Palestinians: In an interview with El-Jezira Television on 3 April,
    Arafat claimed that Israeli forces were attacking Saint Mary's church and
    encircling the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. According to Arafat:
    "They burned the mosque that was located in the Church of Nativity and
    ruined many churches and mosques".

    The facts: There is no truth in the Palestinian claims according to which a
    mosque in front of the Church of the Nativity was burnt. No other mosques or
    churches in Bethlehem were ruined by the IDF in the recent operations.

    Case #3:

    The Palestinians: The "WAFA" (Palestinian Press Agency) internet site
    claimed on 2 April that IDF forces bombed the new mosque in Tulkarem
    following the muazzin's call for the mid-day prayer.

    The facts: Such an event never occurred. This is total fabrication.

    The Palestinians seek to foist the myth that Israel is intentionally
    damaging Islamic and Christian religious sites. This message is repeated ad
    nauseam in an attempt to provoke Islamic and Christian communities in the
    Middle East and world over.

    Case #4:

    The Palestinians: On the 2nd of April 2002 Palestinians spread news which
    were broadcasted in a number of television channels (including the Abu-Tiab
    TV and a local Ramallah station), and claimed that 30 Palestinians were
    killed inside the Preventive Security Service HQ in Betunia during the
    encirclement of IDF forces.

    The facts: On the 2nd of April the people who were at the compound left the
    building. No Palestinian was killed in the parameters of compound.

    Case #5:

    The Palestinians: On 30 March, Jibril Rajub claimed in an interview to
    Syrian ANN television and in another interview later, that there are no men
    wanted for terrorist acts hiding in the Bitunia compound of his security
    forces. Furthermore, he claimed that only his own men, along with women and
    children, were located in his compound.

    The facts: On 2 April, five wanted suspects involved in terrorist acts,
    including senior Hamas operatives who organized terrorist operations in
    Judea and Samaria, were captured in Jibril's Bitunia compound.

    B. Accusing the IDF of Violating Ambulances & Hospitals:

    Case #6:

    The Palestinians: The Palestinian Authority accused the IDF of carrying out
    a massacre in the Ramallah hospital.
    The facts: This is an absolute falsehood.

    On 31 March 2002, following the receipt of reliable intelligence concerning
    the whereabouts of a large number of wanted suspects hiding in Ramallah
    hospitals, IDF forces entered the city's hospitals. This was done in order
    to carry out searches and verify the identities of those people in the
    hospitals. The IDF soldiers carried out their missions in a manner
    respectful to those in the medical facilities and withdrew.

    The IDF Spokesperson has strenuously denied false Palestinian claims
    concerning a massacre or mass murder in the Palestinian hospitals. This is
    another example of the baseless incitement fomented by the Palestinian
    Authority against the State of Israel and the IDF.

    C. Palestinian False Claims of Attempts To Arrest Terrorists:

    Case #7:

    The Palestinians claimed on numerous occasions that the Palestinian
    Authority (PA) had arrested Palestinians involved in terrorist acts. On 2
    October, the PA announced it had arrested Atef Abayat, head of the Tanzim in
    Bethlehem (a Fatah organization responsible for terrorist acts, also
    operating under the name Al - Aqsa Brigades). Abayat was involved in
    numerous terrorist shooting attacks, which killed many Israeli civilians.
    The PA also claimed to have arrested Raaed Karmi, who was personally
    responsible for the murders of Israeli civilians.

    The facts: Israel knew that Atef Abayat was not arrested. On 18 October,
    Atef Abayat and 2 other terrorists were targeted by IDF while strolling
    freely in the Bethlehem area and organizing more terrorist attacks. Raaed
    Karmi was also targeted by the IDF.

    D. Palestinians Evade Responsibility for Terrorist Attacks

    Case #8 - The Murder of Government Minister Zeevi:

    The Palestinians: Arafat consistently claimed in press interviews that the
    murder of Israeli Government Minister Rehavam Zeevi was committed by
    Palestinian collaborators working with Israel. On 19 February, Arafat was
    still making this claim in an interview to the French newspaper
    "l'Humanit?": "The murderers of Zeevi are collaborators with Israel and we
    arrested their brothers. They admitted to us that their whole family works
    for Israel".

    On 21 February, the day the French newspaper published the interview, the
    murderers were arrested and interrogated by security organs of the
    Palestinian Authority, following heavy pressure from Israel. The transcripts
    of the interrogation were captured by the IDF in Arafat's Ramallah compound,
    and they clearly do not show any connection to Israel.

    Allegations that Israel is committing terrorist acts against her own
    civilians are not accidental or new to Arafat. In that same interview to the
    French newspaper, Arafat claims: "In the terrorist attack in the Tel Aviv
    club (the Dolphinarium), the terrorist was transported by a man who arrived
    from Jordan with a visa from the Israeli embassy and is now under Israeli
    protection" Israeli Prime Minister Rabin himself was murdered by a man who
    worked for the Israeli General Security Service and who fled to the U.S. "

    The facts: The murder of Minister Zeevi was committed by members of the
    "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)" in October of 2001.
    That information was transmitted by Israel to the PA immediately after the
    murder. Arafat knew for some months who committed the Zeevi murder. The
    Dolphinarium terrorist act (June 2000) was committed by terrorists from the
    Hamas infrastructure in Judea and Samaria.

    Case #9 - Murder of TIPH Observers:

    The Palestinians: Arafat said in a 29 March 2002 interview on Abu Dhabi
    television that "…in addition to all their [the Israeli's] acts in Ramallah,
    Gaza Strip and other places, there was the incident in Hebron. How dare they
    commit such a crime. They attacked and killed 3 men of the international
    force: 2 Turks and one Swiss nurse".
    The facts: The murder of the TIPH (Temporary International Force in Hebron)
    observers on the evening of 26 March was committed by the Palestinians.
    International bodies working with TIPH also acknowledged the Palestinian
    responsibility for that murder.

    A TIPH vehicle travelling near Halhul was ambushed by an armed Palestinian,
    even though the passengers identified themselves as members of TIPH and
    their vehicle was clearly marked as a TIPH vehicle. The Palestinian
    terrorist murdered two observers and lightly wounded another. The testimony
    of the wounded Observer revealed that the Palestinian terrorist wore a
    Palestinian Police Uniform and was equipped with an AK-47 Kalashnikov
    weapon. The Palestinian terrorist fired three magazines at close range at
    the Observers, even though the force identified themselves as international
    observers. The IDF expressed its sorrow and shock for the cold blooded
    murder of innocent people.

    E. Accusing Israel of Using Depleted Uranium

    Case #10:

    The Palestinians: For many months, Arafat accused Israel of using depleted
    uranium. Arafat claims, in an interview to the French paper " l'Humanit?"
    (21 Feb. 2002) that Israel "makes use of banned weapons like depleted
    Uranium, and this information was confirmed in the U.S. report".

    In a 27 March speech given by Arafat and broadcast by El-Jezira TV (A speech
    originally intended for the Arab summit in Beirut) he says: "The Israeli
    government and the occupying army are not reluctant to use weapons that are
    banned internationally. That includes depleted uranium gasses and even toxic
    waste".

    The facts: Israel does not use depleted uranium against the Palestinians. In
    truth, contrary to what Arafat claims, the U.S did not confirm that Israel
    used depleted uranium against the Palestinians.

    F. The "Karine A" Affair

    Case #11:

    The Palestinians: Arafat has consistently dened his or the PA's involvement
    in the Karine A arms ship intercepted by the IDF. In a 19 January interview
    with Egyptian television, Arafat claimed: "Let us see who can prove that
    this ship belongs to the PA. It is a well known fact that there is no
    connection between us and the Iranians on that subject… Had we wanted to
    import arms, we could import them from any of our Arab brothers. No Arab
    country would say "No". Hence, why should I import the arms from Iran?."

    The facts: The arms ship "Karine A", which carried on board many tons of
    quality weaponry, including anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, was a
    smuggling operation run by Palestinian Authority. According to the evidence
    found on board, the weaponry originated in Iran. The smuggling was financed
    and organized by Fuad Shubaki, the head of the financial administration of
    the Palestinian General Security Services and an Arafat confidant. The
    ship's captain and crew were members of the Palestinian Naval Police.

    Arafat gradually retracted part of his denials in the "Karine A" affair.

    Conclusions:

    There is a lesson to be learned from all of these lies. As Abraham Lincoln
    said, "You can't fool all of the people all of the time"

    The involvement of the PA, Arafat and his senior assistants in organizing
    and funding terrorist attacks has been proven.

    As time goes on, Israel will eventually unveil the web of PA lies, which the
    Palestinians are trying to conceal in their ongoing campaign of
    disinformation to the media.

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    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    disputed reference

    Originally posted by qamar
    Fact: Israel is illegaly occupying Palestinian Land
    Qamar
    It is not Palestinian land. It is disputed land.

    It was taken over by Israel from Jordan, not Palestine, unless you want to claim that Jordan is Palestine, which you don't since then you will be saying that there already is one Palestinian state.

    The Jordanians got it from the British who got it from the Ottoman Turks who got it from.......who got it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews.

    The point is that Judea and Samaria were never part of a country by the name of Palestine and it is not correct to say that we are occupying Palestinian land.
    We are living on land that we, at least some of us, consider to be part of our homeland and we have strong historical claims. The Palstinians think its theirs. Most of the world tends to agree with them.
    That's why we can all agree to call it the "disputed" and not "occupied" territories.

  17. #117
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    I do not agree with you there. ¿Why on earth, the "mandates systems" established independence for all those territories except for the Palestian?

    I think that Israel has a right to have a land, a country of their own, but so do the palestinian. May be they were not called palestinian but they were living there and they were deprived of their land and independece because of the unilateral british declaration of 1917.

    The Jewish inmigration into the zone and the repression of palestinian protests started long before the state of Israel became a reality (as far as 1929) and the repression was carried out by the british, who in 1947 washed their hands of the problem they had created and handed it over to the united nations.

    I'm know your neighbours started to attak you from the very begining but is understandable, it was their land.

    From my point of view, the only way out, is that both countries sat down and made some concesions. The greater Israel, is not possible; or may it is but ¿at what cost? Is it worth it?

    I'm well aware that Israel can literally crush all of its neighbours without any outside help. But is that what Israel wants?


    As long as the dream of the greater Israel continues to be carried out, the war will continue and the international public opinión will be with the palestinian despite the Islamic integrist suicide bombers.

    Suicide bombers is something that will continue either with peace between the two Nations or whitout it. The choice is to fight against them together to have the or have the palestinian helping and admiring them a little more each day the "ocupation" continues.

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    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by t0m|ta

    I think that Israel has a right to have a land, a country of their own, but so do the palestinian. May be they were not called palestinian but they were living there.
    That's right. And that is their claim. My people were also living there (here) and still do. We have other claims to the land as well which still apply. It's what you might call a dispute between two stateless people. Its not the occupation of one country by another.


    The Jewish inmigration into the zone and the repression of palestinian protests started long before the state of Israel became a reality (as far as 1929) and the repression was carried out by the british,
    Yes, there was also a protest they did not repress that year. It was actually a massacre of the Jews of Hebron.


    From my point of view, the only way out, is that both countries sat down and made some concesions. The greater Israel, is not possible; or may it is but ¿at what cost? Is it worth it?
    This war is not about greater Israel. Israel already conceeded greater Israel when it offered to trade land for peace during the Clinton/Barak administration.
    The current war is in defense of lesser Israel, the right of people to live in security within any borders that might be defined by agreement that might be reached with the Palestinians.

    Nevertheless, most of the world, and this thread as well seems to support the Palestinians in this war as they demand that Israel agree to further terror attacks without any recourse to negotiating our differences as all of our compromises were rejected out of hand.

    Pretty scary, if you're Jewish.



    Suicide bombers is something that will continue either with peace between the two Nations or whitout it. The choice is to fight against them together to have the or have the palestinian helping and admiring them a little more each day the "ocupation" continues.
    The PA freed the terrorists from there jails and began to support them in attacks of all kinds against civilians in rejection of lesser Israel, not greater Israel.

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    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    The current war is in defense of lesser Israel, the right of people to live in security within any borders that might be defined by agreement that might be reached with the Palestinians.
    I think this is exactly the problem. International public opinion is not believing this, from the moment Israel's tanks are in the palestine's land (or whatever you call them )

    I have the impression Mr. Sharon has utterly failed in the "public image" field, maybe because he is an Army man and not a Polititian.

    As I said before, I really think islamic terrorism is using the palestine situation as an excuse for their "actions", and crushing down the palestine civil population is playing their game, giving them exactly what they are looking for: more excuses. And what is worse, excuses the rest of the world is believing.

    Akhol, I'm very gratefull you are talking to us and telling us what you think and feel. If sometimes I sound a bit hard, be sure is my english that is not good enough for subtleties and I tend to write short strong phrases

    The PA freed the terrorists from there jails and began to support them in attacks of all kinds against civilians in rejection of lesser Israel, not greater Israel.
    Do please correct me if I'm wrong, with so many resolutions and "peace plans" I'm getting a bit lost.
    But I had the impression that according to the last agreements some of the "jewish" settlements on the palestinian "whatever" were going to be dismantled and this was going on until Sharon became prime minister. From them on they have not only been dismantled but encourared. That's the news we got here.

    ¿What's the truth?

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    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Wow, just when I arrive back at the scene, it seems things have spun a bit out of hand...

    It seems, for whatever reason (apparently qamar's post), people have let their emotions get to them.

    I say, if he wants to present a report, let him. This is why I asked for his sources and their reliability. It seems that those sources turned up to be inexistant or unreliable?

    I think that we all need to cool down and keep things objective, and be open to the idea of 'anything is possible', especially in conflict such as this.

    Perhaps if we could stay away from such open accusations sometime in the future, and less graphic articles, we would not get people so emotionally worked up?

    Also, has Itay left? I would like to see him back here, because, as was previously mentioned, his take on this is extremely important to the discussion, due to his location and that his oppinions are always (at least in my eyes) well-respected.

    Maybe we can get back on the track and discuss something objective?
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    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    I'm still here...

    Tom - On the 29th of November, 1947, the UN announced two new nations - A jewish one, and an arabic one.

    They were set equally in the land that is called Israel, and Jerusalem was to be an international city.

    The jewish settlement accepted this, but was not happy.
    The arab people did not. They started a war.

    That was their mistake - they admit it.

    The jewish hitnacholooyut (the villages inside the disputed land) should be removed immediatly (at least in my opinion) and that land given back to the Palestinians.

    We all want peace, most of Israel is willing to make great concessions to achieve it. The people who do not agree with, with all due respect of course, can move out of the country for all I care.

    I do not have arab friends, but I'd love to live next to them in peace.

    This is no more an issue of land - it is an issue of principles. We dont want to give up Jerusalem - understandable. They wont have peace without Jerusalem - understandable (just an example of course).

    But I just think that Barak was willing to find a middle way, Arafat wasn't.

    If anyone has any specific questions to me that I missed - please tell me.
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    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Nice to see you again, we were missing you a lot :-)

    We dont want to give up Jerusalem - understandable. They wont have peace without Jerusalem - understandable (just an example of course).
    ¿Why?

    Can't it be international, as originally planned?

    I'm watching the news, there's been a big pacifist demonstration in Tel Aviv. Was it as good as is been presented?

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    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    A friend of mine was in the demonstration - I just dont agree with them, I am just not really a pacisift.

    No one would agree to it being international - rightfully so as well I think.

    Each of the three monotheistic religions have some kind of holy ground in Jerusalem, they all want it somehow.

    I dont know what the solution could be, iit is truly a hard dilemma.

    But I dont think the current situation will change until the Arab nations denounce terrorism.
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    Originally posted by goober
    It seems, for whatever reason (apparently qamar's post), people have let their emotions get to them.

    I say, if he wants to present a report, let him. This is why I asked for his sources and their reliability. It seems that those sources turned up to be inexistant or unreliable?

    Goober,

    Most of my reports are from the News either on the internet or on Sky.

    Next time I'll name where I get the sources. Whether you decide to belive them is up to you and your own personal leanings.

    For example, akohl gave a report on Palestinian mis-information. The report comes from idf.il which is the Israeli Defence Forces Website. Hardly Un-biased. Couple of my sources came from www.lawsociety.org which is a palestinian human rights group. Once again I would like to think they give an un-biased view but many people like akohl will beg to differ.

    We are not journalists here but just people who have an interest in the Middle East. Like I said I'll give my source next time but its upto you to belive it or not.

    Akhol, when I refer to Palestinian lands I refer to the borders set out by UN resolutions.

    Qamar

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    Originally posted by goober


    What are your sources? where did you get this article? I don't know, it sounds horrible, but something from it doesn't seem right. For example, how did he have those figures if he was huddled in a house or trying to get food, etc.

    It just doesn't add up to me, I don't know.
    Ok, I've done some sufing, ignored all the accounts from palestinian sources and come across this.

    http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...ID=0&listSrc=Y

    haaretz daily is a daily Israeli newspaper.

    In the gruesome wake of the Israeli army


    Sewage streams through streets, garbage is piling up, electricity fails, as does running water. Hospitals have dwindling supplies of food, water and medicine. The Israeli army denies ambulances permission to evacuate the dead and wounded lying in streets.

    These are some of the gruesome details of daily life since the massive Israeli invasion of the West Bank and where 400,000 people have been living under total curfew for the past five to 10 days in cities in the grip of the Israeli army.

    At 10 A.M. yesterday an employee at Jenin Hospital reported by cellular phone: "I'm speaking from the stairwell in the hospital corridor. The soldiers are at the entrance of the hospital and have told us not to dare to come close to the window to look out."

    The hospital is 200 meters from Jenin refugee camp. The sound of heavy gunfire and aerial bombing can be heard through the phone. An Israel Defense Forces unit is posted just dozens of meters away. The troops do not allow the two functioning ambulances to leave the hospital and evacuate the wounded, hospital personnel reported yesterday.

    "The head of the force came to us on Friday evening, shouted and shoved a bed to the edge of the emergency rooms and declared that if anyone went past the bed, he would make sure they would end up without a head," reported a hospital employee.

    "Meanwhile, people are calling us, crying over the phone and begging us to evacuate the wounded. They are a couple of hundred meters away, with hand, leg or head injuries, and we can't help them. They tell us of wounded and dead lying in the street. We don't know how many there are.

    "We couldn't even evacuate my 50-year-old aunt, who was killed at her home in the refugee camp when she opened her door to open the gate to soldiers who wanted to come into the yard. They shot her, or threw a grenade and she died on the spot. The family called me in hysterics and until now I haven't been able to send an ambulance. She's at home, dead.

    "There is no electricity in the hospital, we are using the generator all the time, until we run out of fuel. We are almost out of food. We don't have enough medication. We have to save on water. We don't have enough oxygen after the oxygen unit was damaged from the shooting.

    "There are about 50 people at the hospital: 35 wounded, many of them women and children. The rest are staff and regular patients.

    An ambulance driver described his saga in trying to evacuate the wounded: "I tried to leave the hospital to evacuate the wounded and the tank started to shoot at me. I appealed to a Magen David ambulance driver to help me get through, but he ignored me ... The unit officer told me not to dare to leave the hospital without coordinating first with the IDF. Two and a half hours later, I was told there was coordination between the Red Cross and the army and I ventured out again to bring a dialysis patient. But as soon as we sounded the siren, we were shot at again. We tried to explain that our departure had been coordinated but the tank commander said he know nothing about this and ordered us back, saying he would blow up the ambulance if we didn't do so."

    The account is backed up by the International Committee of the Red Cross which yesterday issued a sharp press release, saying it had been forced to limit its movements in the West Bank to a bare minimum due to what it described as "security incidents involving IDF soldiers and Red Cross personnel, which included attacks on vehicles and premises." It said ambulance staff have been threatened at gunpoint in Bethlehem and have had warning shots fired at them in Nablus and Ramallah. In addition two Red Cross vehicles were damaged by IDF tanks in Tul Karm.

    Meanwhile, the danger to public health has been increasing daily in West Bank cities due to curfews. The suspension of the curfew in Ramallah, Qalqilya and Bethlehem for a few hours two or three times last week, without prior notification, have not given Palestinians enough time to dispose of garbage piling up in the streets. Several neighborhoods in almost all cities are not linked to the sewage system and open sewage is normally carried away by special trucks every week or two. The continuing curfews have obstructed such clean ups, creating a public health hazard.

    Some 90 percent of households in Nablus do not have running water after heavy tank fire damaged water pipes and water storage tanks. Jenin's water supply has also been damaged. Electricity supply to the two cities has also been severely interrupted.
    By Amira Hass in Ramallah and Joseph Algazy

    Qamar
    Last edited by qamar; Apr 7, 2002 at 12:42.


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