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  1. #76
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    President Bush announces U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell to go to Middle East to lead peace effort.

    Israel will allow U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni to visit Yasser Arafat at his Ramallah compound.

    -CNN
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  2. #77
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    Arrafat is a terrorist and supports terrorism. He can without a doubt stop or curb the terrorists attacks but he doesnt to retain power. Sharon is not any better but his options are limited because he is forced to defend his nation of innocent civilians from suicide bombers. Plain and simple, Arafat is no peace maker and Sharons hands are tied as far as stoping the Isreali invasions.

  3. #78
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    Disgraceful and Negative comments.

    Goober-

    and it angered me to see someone disgracing a peaceful talk with negative comments.
    What you on about?

    In my two threads I have merely stated my opinion, based on fact, which I am entitled to do.

    I see no comments made by me that can be described as "disgraceful", indeed I take offence at this.
    As for negative thoughts, I don't recall a war ever being good so there can be little cause for positive comments (about the conflict)!

    If you simply don't agree with what I have written then that is your right to agree or disagree, right or wrong. I don't know you, so I do not set out to please or anger you, my only concern is for the innocents. On both sides.

    I do not mean to sound hostile to you in any way and would hope that this discussion remain friendly, and informative for those that wish to learn more of the truth.
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
    "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand"

  4. #79
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    rabmurdy,

    I'm sorry if I offended you. I wasn't speaking of your comments on the war (many of which I agree with in part). I was speaking of your comment about this thread.

    All said and done, I definitely overreacted. It was a long day and I read far too much into things.

    Accept an apology?

    Sorry again. Back to discussion...
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  5. #80
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    We all have them....

    Long days.



    Back to the discussion,

    Today seems to be a turning point in the conflict if present news reports are correct. Dialog is the only way forward for both parties, but as said by previous posters, I feel both men are unable to control exactly what is going on within each faction.

    Hardliners in both camps have far too loud a voice, it's time the people of both countries stood up to be counted rather than just spectating and absorbing the fallout (it is always the common people who suffer most).

    A revolt from the Israelis and Palestinians against thier own governments may be the only way to redress this situation.

    (History says it's possible and will eventually happen, only no timescale can be attributed. When the people have had enough the politicians will pay the price.)
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
    "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand"

  6. #81
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    The Israeli Army is refusing the red cross to attend to the wounded .

    Would you call that a War Crime?


    Qamar

  7. #82
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    That's horrible. Where did you read about that? I checked my normal news links and couldn't find anything, but they are all daily, not updated as the news comes in.

  8. #83
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Chas
    I've seen Sky and BBC news footage of whats going on in 'occupied territories' today - and by in large it's un-restricted reporting on the current crises...
    I posted about the Israeli press clampdown earlier in this thread, too. You'll probably also notice that you're seeing less ground based reporting and more aerial and "File" footage.

    Overall, I must admit that the media does take a slightly pro-Palestinian view (as if anyone could be anti-Palestinian without being a bigot). It's not that the reporting isn't factual; it's that the media tends to gloss over things where information is sketchy or difficult to get.

    Generally, governments are more open and truthful than various organizations and authorities. I believe that one of the main forces behind anti-American, anti-Israeli and general anarchism worldwide is lackluster, easy does it reporting. It's not that governments are any worse in their actions than local militias and organizations (in fact, the vast majority of times you'll find far worse atrocities and incitement of atrocities committed by various militias and organizations). It's just the goods on governments are easer to find.

    In that sense and in the sense that everyone likes the underdog, as Itay pointed out, the media is biased.


    One thing that really shocked me yesterday when I watched 60 Minutes II (a weekly news magazine style TV show) was a discussion of the idea of "transfer" -- essentially ethnic cleansing. The main idea is to "transfer" Palestinians and Arabs out of Israel.

    What shocked me wasn't that the idea was proposed or that a few extremists voiced their support of the idea. What shocked me was that a recent poll indicated some 46% of Israelis now supported it -- nearly half! I remember Sharon proposing building a wall to separate Israelis and Palestinians, which seems eerily similar to the idea of Transfer, a few months ago on a newscast.

    I can only hope that those poll results and Sharon's suggestion are a figment of a frightened and weary population and that it never translates into practice. If such an eventuality were to occur, I would expect the US and the rest of NATO to respond in the same way we did on behalf of the Kosovars. Segregation shouldn't be the goal of any civilized peoples. It's barbaric racism/apartheid and it mustn't be tolerated by any modern society.

    ~~Ian

  9. #84
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Ian - I think I would move out of the country if such a wall was built.

    Qamar - can you elaborate more on that claim? if it is true it is horrendous.
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  10. #85
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    Re: Shocking

    Originally posted by rabmurdy
    Someone stated in an earlier post that the press were leaning towards the palestinians, that is one of the most ridiculous statments I have ever heard.
    Fact: In EVERY press/news piece I have seen relating to this conflict the palestinians are described as TERRORISTS. And Why? because they "defend thier country, by whatever means, RIGHT OR WRONG"....
    Bob,
    I agree with you there with regards to the press bias towards Israel. There were some american students who were taken on a visit to some palestinian refugee camps. They came back shocked and could not believe their living conditions and on how badly they were being represented in the media.

    Unless things change its not going to be long before Israel will see the same protests and boycotts that South Africa faced during apartheid
    Qamar
    Last edited by qamar; Apr 4, 2002 at 15:48.

  11. #86
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    News Roundup

    (VOA) Lebanese police reported the missile attack. It is unclear if there was any damage or casualties. There are conflicting reports on whether the Lebanese-based Hezbollah guerrilla group was responsible.

    While the Associated Press says Lebanese security officials penned the attack on Hezbollah, other news agencies quote Hezbollah sources as saying they have no knowledge of the attack.

    Tuesday and Wednesday, Hezbollah fighters fired mortars and rockets at Israeli troops in Shebaa Farms, an area occupied by Israel where the Lebanese, Syrian and Israeli borders come together. Israeli forces responded with cross-border shelling and air strikes near Lebanese villages.

    Thursday attack came hours after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Israel is ready to take "all actions" required to defend its forces and its northern towns.
    (CNN) The United States stepped up its involvement in the Middle East peace process Thursday as President Bush announced he is sending Secretary of State Colin Powell to the region, and Israel said it would allow U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni to meet with beleaguered Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

    Bush said Powell would travel to the Middle East next week to work for a cease-fire, the end of violence, the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian cities, and the implementation of the Tenet and Mitchell plans.

    "The storms of violence cannot go on. Enough is enough," Bush said.

    Bush called on Israel to end its incursions into Palestinian areas. He also had harsh words for Arafat, saying the Palestinian leader had "betrayed the hopes" of his people and not consistently opposed terrorist activity.

    Bush also condemned recent suicide bombings and said those who have carried them out "are not martyrs, they are murderers."
    Last edited by Ian Glass; Apr 4, 2002 at 15:57.

  12. #87
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    War Crime

    The Israeli Army is refusing the red cross to attend to the wounded . Would you call that a War Crime?
    Yes. Absolutely Qamar, but it will not be reported as a war crime and therefor will not be treated as such.
    The Israeli's constant denial that they do no wrong is rarely if ever questioned by the press, written or visual.

    A war crime is committed every day in this part of the world, it's just not always "a hit in the headlines" to put it to the watching public abroad.
    For example, how many of us know that there is an active peace group who regularly hold marches within Israel demanding peace/talks? Probably very few of us, the press tend to leave these sort of issues alone and consentrate on the gory stuff (suicide bombers/martyres and Israeli helicopter gun boats firing rockets.)

    The global press are guilty of showing too little of the overall picture, which should be vital so we all know the full truth, let us judge if the news is worthy or not.
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
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  13. #88
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    At this moment the Israelis have closed off these areas and called them "War Zones" I think.

    Heard on sky today that a mother and her son were killed when the soldiers fired through the iron doors and killed them both. 5 palestinian policemen were found shot in the head a few days ago. A lot of this stuff is going to come to light once this is all over.

    Without journalists and independent monitors this is all going to be kept hidden. Exactly what Sharon wanted.

    The UN needs to let sharon know that he is going to be accountable for any actions by his army.

    Qamar

  14. #89
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    Press toe the party line

    Bush called on Israel to end its incursions into Palestinian areas. He also had harsh words for Arafat, saying the Palestinian leader had "betrayed the hopes" of his people and not consistently opposed terrorist activity.
    Definition, delete where required...

    Incursions / Invasion

    Terrorist / Freedom Fighter

    Which is the right use of each word?

    The answer of course depends on where in the world you are, and thats the sad part!
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
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  15. #90
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Qamar - Please, enlighten me, how do you know this is what Sharon wanted? How do you know all of this is true?
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  16. #91
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Bob, "Terrorist" is in no way synonymous with "freedom fighter."

    A terrorist is someone who's engaged in terrorism. Terrorism is "the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments," according to dictionary.com. Any so called "freedom fighter" whose sole intention is to intimidate others so that his whishes can be achieved is not for freedom in any form.

    Next, while incursion and invasion are roughly synonymous, they're slight differences. "Invasion is the generic term, denoting a forcible entrance into a foreign country. Incursion signifies a hasty and sudden invasion. Irruption denotes particularly violent invasion. Inroad is entry by some unusual way involving trespass and injury." -- dictionary.com.

    In both instances, the words chosen in the CNN article were the most appropriate usages.

    Another common misperception is that suicide bombers are martyrs. Martyrs do not seek to become martyrs; it is thrust upon them. Martyrs only refuse to renounce their religion or beliefs and face great suffering because of that. They don't act out violent fantasies to fulfill their delusions -- there's another word for that: psychopath.

    Let's not get our definitions mixed up.

    ~~Ian

  17. #92
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    Itay, Let me ask you this...

    Under Sharon more Israelis and Palestinians have died than under Barak, Rabin etc.

    Under his government illegal Israeli settlements built on occupied lands have increased. While Palestinian homes are bulldozed.

    I might be wrong but I think he is the first Israeli to order the use of F16's against built up civilian areas. Talk about trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer. He killed more innocents that way and was probably the best recruiting poster for the sucide bombers.

    Now this current invasion which has turned the whole world against him (apart from the USA).

    In my view its quite simple. You don't win friends by shoving people in ghettos with no future. Of course people will fight you with everything they have. If I was in their situation I would do the same.

    I found this quote you might be interested in:



    David Ben Gurin Israels first Prime Minister
    Why shoul the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, its true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?

    Cited by Nahum Goldman
    The Jewish Paradox
    (London 1978)

    Qamar

  18. #93
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    I agree with most that Ben Gurion said, he was right.

    Qamar - under Sharon... Sharon is in office for a year and a month now, and 80% of these happenings are in his tenure, while only the beginning was in Baraks tenure.

    Rabin was different - He believed in peace as an ultimate goal and would not compromise his beliefs to achieve it. Others do.
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  19. #94
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Bob, "Terrorist" is in no way synonymous with "freedom fighter."

    A terrorist is someone who's engaged in terrorism. Terrorism is "the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments," according to dictionary.com. Any so called "freedom fighter" whose sole intention is to intimidate others so that his whishes can be achieved is not for freedom in any form.
    Gotta disagree with you there Ian. The two are entirely interoperable. Indulge me for a second and imagine the Nazis had come up trumps in ww2 (I know, minus several hundred forum points for bringing it up ). Would you consider a group of individuals who "systematically used violence to intimidate or coerce their society or government" freedom fighters or terrorists? Remembering of course that they do not have the luxury of reasoned debate and have been put under such government by force in the first place? I suspect you would consider them freedom fighters, but by your very definition they would be terrorists.

    The same rule applies to the ANC (now in government in South Africa, but officially a "terrorist" organisation just a few years ago), who are now "champions of freedom".

    I could cite a zillion other examples, but will end with just two points.

    1: Since when has dictionary.com even been close to a reliable source of academic information???????

    2: In previous definitions of terrorism, the targeting of civilians has been cited as a core rationale for that "tag". I'm sure you're aware that in Israel pretty much everone is in the army (until age 40??), and continually train throughout their lives - which would make the Palestinian suicide bombers (who, incidently, I abhore) not terrorists but legitimate fighters........
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  20. #95
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by t0m|ta

    Akhol, I have been asking for information that would help me understand Israels point of view, so I would very much appreciate whatever you can bring to us.
    Best regards.
    Thanks for your interest. I'll try to get to it next week.

  21. #96
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    Definitions

    Ian, have got to say that I know fine well what the definitions of all 4 references are, you obviously missed the point in answering this first.

    The words used by cnn are weak and one sided, an invasion is an invasion, full stop. By using the word incursion lessens the effect that it has verbaly and written, a lot of people would be unable to exactly define the word incursion. But tell them it's an invasion and they know exactly what you are talking about and the effects an invasion has on the population.

    Terrorists and freedom fighters may well be different descriptions altogether, it doesn't matter, it's the use of the words that are wrong. As you so kindly pointed out a terrorist has his OWN agenda, I agree with that. A freedom fighter wishes to drive an enemy from his borders or end suppresion through religous or ethical grounds.

    The point being here is that rather than give the full story and let US judge who are terrorists and who are not, we are given a diluted version. Do not tell us Palestinians are terrorists if they are in fact freedom fighters, if an incursion into palestinian land is an invasion then call it an invasion, don't dilute the meaning so you can influence public opinion.

    (Also, if Sharon orders his troops into palestinian territory forcing the locals to stay inside for fear of thier lives, then isn't this terrorism? It is in my books and if Sharon is the one who ordered it then he
    is a terrorist, no matter how you dress it up.)
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
    "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand"

  22. #97
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    Just read this Eye witness account from someone trapped in that area.


    Ramallah, Occupied Palestine -- My name is Tzaporah Ryter. I am an American student from the University of Minnesota. I currently am in Ramallah. We are under a terrible siege and people are being massacred by both the Israeli army and armed militia groups of Israeli settlers. They are shooting outside at anything that moves. I am urgently pleading for as much outside help as possible to help save lives here.
    I arrived in Ramallah last Thursday. I had come back for a visit to the Palestinian city where I had been previously living and studying. On Thursday afternoon, the Israeli army began sealing off each entrance to Ramallah and there were rumors that they planned to invade.
    ...
    Women carrying their children were trying desperately to flee from Ramallah, carrying infants and toddlers, and their young children were running along in the rain through the fields, slipping and falling on the rocks, trying to reach safety. Israeli jeeps were speeding across the terrain pulling up from every direction and shooting at the women and children, and also at me, as we ran in opposite directions. They were chasing down people, hunting them like that in the fields.
    ...
    When night fell, Israeli tanks began to invade and also we saw Israeli troops coming on foot from the valley, and surrounding our house. I could hear them calling to each other in Hebrew. They were
    against our door and all around. They were firing everywhere a barrage of bullets and there was tank fire. We had to lay on the floor and keep silent. We stayed there, on the floor, for nearly four days in the darkness.
    We knew that our circumstances were better than others because old people or infants or people with medical emergency needs had no help. It was very cold, with most families packed all in one room.

    Some people are without life sustaining medicines like insulin, and they are altering their doses dangerously if they have any medicine left to take. People are becoming dangerously sick from lack of food and water and heat. The fear and terror only makes things worse, but it cannot be avoided.
    In the daytime, we heard them shooting people in the streets, and could hear them screaming and screaming. No ambulance was allowed through. Then their screams stopped and there was just silence.
    ...
    They keep taking doctors and medics, just now another call. Again, this time the wife of a doctor telling us her husband has been taken from the ambulance.

    Large groups of people have been found in rooms, shot dead, there are blood marks where they have lined people up on their knees and shot them, with their ID cards laying on top of them. They are taking
    people from their homes, blindfolding them, removing their clothes, taking them away or lining them up and shooting them against the wall.
    People are making phone calls and saying that these soldiers and militia have come in and are shooting people and then the line cuts off.

    The numbers of these killings I fear are much greater than the numbers confirmed in the press, because the human rights offices and the media centers have been stormed, and everything is shut down. No one can move without almost certain chance of being shot by the Israeli snipers, who are everywhere.

    The Israelis are demanding that all journalists leave Ramallah and today another foreign journalist was shot. They do not want any more
    Internationals here and are deporting people. It seems quite clear that they do not want eyewitnesses which is only heightening my own
    fears.

    The hospitals have also been surrounded and invaded and Israeli troops are taking the injured people and interrogating them. Today a woman, a patient, tried to walk out from hospital. The Israelis shot her in the neck and killed her.
    The Palestinian Ministry of Health is saying that they fear the spread of diseases because of the number of unburied corpses.

    The numbers are only growing in reports of the mass killings here and Israeli troops continue to round up people. People are calling frantically, missing a relative and we do not know where they have been taken, including children.

    The numbers we have now exceed 600, and we are estimating between 700 and 800. All human rights groups and legal advocates are being
    denied any information of where the detained are being held. From what we know confirmed is that 10% of those taken so far have been children under age 18.
    ...
    When I went outside, there were cars all shot up and hit by multiple bullets and shells in the middle of the road, un parked. There must have been people in them but I don't know where their bodies are. There are no reports of them, but they must exist.
    ...
    This afternoon the Israelis suddenly lifted the curfew, suddenly announcing that everyone had two hours to go out to get food. However, the Israeli soldiers also took food from many of the
    stores, looted, and there is no bread or things. People* went to get whatever they could.
    Even though the Israeli army said it had lifted the closure for two hours -- in which we still were not able to transfer medical supplies and still was not long enough to everything that was badly needed -- the Israelis continued shooting people in the streets indiscriminately on their way, so people were running around trying to make it to the store or find a safe route only to have to run back home again. It was an added cruelty and terror tactic in this macabre situation, a sick joke: starve people and then shoot them when they try to find food with your permission.In an apartment building in Beitunia neighborhood where I used to
    live, they took 60 people who were my neighbors, including several families, and pushed them into one room since last night. The Israelis told them that they are to be used as "human shields", as
    the apartment building is across from a building that they were invading.
    One child needs to go to the hospital since last night and, initially, the families were able to call outside. Now, the Israelis have taken their phones.
    There are reports that they are rounding up men between the ages of 14 and 45 in that neighborhood, and these civilians, from these same Palestinian families trapped in that building, were just used to walk in front of an Israeli tank as it invaded the Preventative Security Compound.
    Reports also have alleged that the Israelis were saying that some could leave but shot them when they attempted to leave. The buildings there are burning, and people are trapped inside.
    ...
    There are more explosions outside now and more shooting. Anotherexplosion. More firing, it just doesn't stop. This is a massacre. The foreign delegations tried to get in but were turned back, the International Committee of the Red Cross is trying
    to help but they are being ignored. Please help.
    I am not only scared for myself and for people here, but if this cannot be stopped, I am truly scared for all of humanity, for a world in which we send men to the moon but cannot stop ethnic
    cleansing. On the news in America, we see hardly anything of demonstrations. What are you doing over there? There do not seem to be any reports of what is happening. In truth, its got to stop. Please go out to the streets, please demand a response from your representatives. Be loud, march up to the
    capitals, refuse to leave until the Israelis withdraw. Act now! Tell them the Israelis are murdering innocent people whose only crime is being born in their own homeland, a Palestinian under a military
    occupation. Demand international protection for the Palestinian people, scream that this is an affront to humanity and that it is time that the US
    not only stop supporting Israel, but that the US stop its abuse of human rights within its own borders. This is about all of our struggles. For the love of God, please stop this slaughter.

    Please help.

    qamar

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    Officials from the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees have told the BBC that the agency's staff are reporting "wanton destruction" of Palestinian infrastructure across the West Bank.

    There have also been reports of looting of food and personal items by Israeli soldiers carrying out house to house searches


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1913156.stm

  24. #99
    ********* obeah makeda's Avatar
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    This question is sort of off topic and may be quite ignorant (although its not meant to be). Why is the area known as the 'West Bank' referred to as such? It appears to be in eastern israel.

  25. #100
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Originally posted by qamar
    Just read this Eye witness account from someone trapped in that area.
    qamar
    What are your sources? where did you get this article? I don't know, it sounds horrible, but something from it doesn't seem right. For example, how did he have those figures if he was huddled in a house or trying to get food, etc.

    It just doesn't add up to me, I don't know.
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

    Warning: Reality.sys corrupted. Universe halted. Reboot? (Y/N)


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