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  1. #51
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Guys..I saw an extremely scary piece of information from a Time article on what the worst case Scenario could be in the Israel/Palestine situation, expressed by an expert. The problem is, it could truly happen.

    However, I'm unable to access the article at this time. I got the link from Fark.com, and due to some of the content of the site, it would be unwise for me to access it at school, where I am now.

    If someone can find the link, it was from either today's or yesterday's postings on the site, so it should still be on the home page.

    If not, I'll try to look for it when I get home.

    'Till next time..
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  2. #52
    SitePoint Wizard bbolte's Avatar
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  3. #53
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by goober
    Guys..I saw an extremely scary piece of information from a Time article on what the worst case Scenario could be in the Israel/Palestine situation, expressed by an expert. The problem is, it could truly happen.
    http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101.../scenario.html
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  4. #54
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Yes, thank you both for the link.
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

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  5. #55
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Here in Spain, no polls have been conducted, you you can tell general opinion by the articles and letters the two main newspapers are publishing.

    Today in "El Pais" there is a telephonic interview with a german pacifist locked up in Ramalla with Araphat, she says they don't have anything to eat, and yesterday they had only 4 bottles of water left. Her name is Nicholson, may be you can find the interview in your own newspapers.

    There are also 3 articles from the writer that went to Ramalla, Wole Soyinka (literature Novel), Amoz Oz (Israeli writer) and Juan Goytisolo (Spanish writer), the three of them describe a terrible situation.

    Also we learned today that Mr. Aznar's (President of the European Union'), request to go the zone was denied yesterday.
    Last edited by t0m|ta; Apr 3, 2002 at 16:14.

  6. #56
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    If someone has anything specific to ask me - please do.

    Currently I want to respond briefly to that scenario.

    I read it, and as frightening as it is, it is true. It is said that the smartest move Arafat could make, as horrid as it sounds, is commit suicide. It would force Israel to fold back without negotiation, and will have a lot of reprimands to pay.

    If war does break out, it could be catastrophical for the reason, it could be set back decades. If Israel does win, there is nothing withholding it to reoccupy Sinai, the eastern side of the Jordan river and even more territories in possesion of its Arab allies, which would eventually just lead to more conflict in a few decades.

    If people could just forget land for a second and think about peace, it really annoys me.
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  7. #57
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    The first thing I want to say is that I am very concerned about what is happening in the Middle East. I find myself at times confused, sad, angry, yet always filled with sympathy for the people, Arab, Israeli, and Palestinian who have to experience this.

    Itay, my heart goes out to anyone who has to live in constant fear of suicide bombers. We Americans do care. We have great respect for what Israelis have accomplished. They literally made the dessert green! Yes, we can be crazy and fickle (Do you know what that means?) sometimes! I'm glad you are vacationing in the UK. I pray that things will be better and safer when you return to Israel.

    Ian, I must admit that in most ways I am with you on your opinion of both Arafat and Sharon. Both are have been ineffective leaders. Both have a past riddled with personal animosity for the other. I wouldn't like to think that peace in the area boils down to personal vendettas, but I do wonder if this is not a part of the problem.

    ahol, I agree. There is a difference between the two men. I do not believe that Sharon is a terrorist. He may be too quick to jump to a military solution but he isn't a terrorist, at least not as I perceive terrorists. On the other hand, Arafat was a terrorist. Personally, I belive he still is to some extent. Although he most likely doesn't have total control over all the groups that engage in terrorist activities, I do believe that he is actively promoting and supporting some of these activities. How much? Who knows. Most of you are not old enough to remember the 67 war. I am and I do. Arafat was the undisputed leader of terrorist activities and has been both prior to and after this war. My gut instinct says, he could very well still be a terrorist masquerading as a pacifist.

    qumar, in regard to the site that referred to the Salbra/Shatila massacre. I don't consider that to be a viable source of unbiased information because this site {indictsheron.net} was formed for the sole purpose of convicting Sharon for what took place. It is obviously biased. That doesn't mean that they may not be right. It just means that I don't consider it unbiased enough to deem it credible.

    toh, the same for your link. It too was one sided, created solely for the purpose of promoting their own agenda.

    Last, lets hope for the best. I too agree with those who say that a solution will not be reached with these two in power. If I had to give weight to the chances for peace with Arafat or Sharon in power, I would have to say it's decreased with Arafat heading up the PLO. Israel can replace Sharon. The Palestinians will not replace Arafat. Arafat it there, forever, and peace is not likely as long as this is the case.

  8. #58
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    Comedian Jeremy Hardy

    *

    Comedian escapes

    The stand-off in the Church of the Nativity began when about 200 armed Palestinian police and militia broke in through a side door. They are now surrounded.

    Comedian and newspaper columnist Jeremy Hardy was caught up in the fighting when he went to Israel as a peace protester.

    He said he was shocked by Israeli brutality.

    'Open mind'

    "I went there with an open mind but I was shocked by the brutality of the Israeli army. The Palestinians are very beleaguered, a badly armed people and very humiliated. It is clear Sharon does not want peace.

    "Their tanks seemed particularly interested in destroying statues of the Virgin Mary . . the army machine-gunned a hospital full of pregnant women.
    Jeremy Hardy is a british comedian who managed to get out. He gave a very moving report on sky tonight. My heart goes out to the families without food and water. Some are supposed to be trapped indoors with their dead.

    Also saw an interesting report on Israeli Refusniks (Israelis refusing to serve in the army). One guy said that what made him stop serving in the army was when they cut off water supplies to a whole Palestinian town for 4 days just to make available hot water for ten soldiers. (BBC News)

    Maybe Israel needs to learn about something called "Winning hearts and minds"

    Qamar

  9. #59
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    It is my opinion that nothing whatsoever is going to happen unless a drastic change is made in both sides' policies.

    Peace is the only cure for terrorism. Sharon's violence is doing nothing but raising tensions and inspiring Palestinian kids to become suicide bombers.

    Arafat's lack of control is similarly slowing the peace process. Even if he did sign a peace treaty, it would certainly not be followed. It would even be likely that Arafat would be killed by Palestinian extremists for signing away possessions that weren't his.

    It's a tough situation. I feel the only thing that can be done right now, except for an Arafat suicide or a Sharon resignation, is for Israel to stop its occupation. It is the only side that CAN do something. Arafat has proved powerless over his own people.

    Such a retreat of occupation would be seen as a move in good faith and in hopes of peace by the world. It would likely calm Palestinian tensions. I bet it sure is hard keeping sane when you can look outside your window and see enemy tanks, held back only by goodwill and requests from the US. You wouldn't be sure if the next suicide bombing, or the one after that, would make the US click and unilaterally turn against the Palestinians. You wouldn't be sure if you would be safe, or even if your town would be there the next day.

    Such a situation is not good. It brews extremist attitudes, and pushes a few over the top to commit horrible suicide bombings.

    Israel does not seem to realize this. The card is in their hands, so to speak. If they continue their occupation, or continue their inhumane treatment of Palestinians, bad things will continue to happen. If they wait for Arafat to do something, they will wait for all eternity, as it appears that he cannot do a thing. It is necessary that they take measures towards peace, whether it is a simple message to the world, or a retreat of Israeli forces.

    Something must be done. Israel can do something. Arafat can not do anything. Therefore, Israel must do something.

    --

    It would be very interesting to hear how Israel lives with the terrorism it faces every day. Here in the US, it's not a part of our lives at all, except for the daily war report in the NY Times and references to the 9/11 attacks. I'm sure that Israel citizens are constantly thinking of it...is that the case?

  10. #60
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    In every restaurant or cafe is an armed guard.

    People are in fear of going to malls or crowded streets.

    Should I continue?

    Qamar - I would be extremely surprised if that is the case. Refuseniks usually just like to talk and make a bad case.

    Quinn - in the last week (starting on the night of passover) over 40 people were killed, mostly in two separate suicide bombing case.

    It is in reaction to these that Israel is reoccuping Palestinian territories. If it moves out they will just start again I am afraid, and the process will be restart.

    You seem to forget or not realize that there are enough suicide bombers currently in the Palestinian territories to wreck havoc in Israel, and thus it comes to a point where more suicide bombers are merely statistic rather than threat, as the number is so large.

    A small faction of the Palestinian people believe in suicide bombing, yet that is the faction everybody fears, so nobody does anything, and as you said - Arafat is powerless.
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  11. #61
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    I realize that there are way too many suicide bombers, and I have no doubts that if worse came to worse, they would defend their land to the death.

    What I am saying is that the situation will continue to be a stalemate unless something happens. It is impossible to organize all of the Palestinian extremists unless it would be conducive to their goals, so it is Israel's responsibility to act first.

    If Israel continues to occupy the land that the Palestinians reside in, suicide bombings will continue. If they retreat, suicide bombings will continue. If they directly attack, suicide bombings will continue. If they throw down their weapons and hug eachother, suicide bombings will continue. There is no single step that can be taken that will immediately bring peace to the region.

    However, there are some possibilities for peace. If Israel shows a good faith wish for peace and a willingness to compromise, Arafat might band together his people and compromise a bit too, resulting in peace. It might work that way, but however it works out in the end (assuming there is an end other than MAD), it will be because of one of three things happened to set off the peace process: an Israeli retreat, a Sharon resignation, or an Arafat resignation.

    It's a really bad situation, I think we all agree. Peace is not going to be obtained through violence.

    p.s. For the record, I consider myself pro-Israel...

  12. #62
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    Shocking

    This type of thread really does nothing to help the situation, having read the posts from start to finish I have learned nothing that I never knew already.
    It is obvious that everyone wants peace, on boths sides, to state otherwise is verging on racism, if it's not already.
    I have seen evidence on both sides of attrocities, there is nothing new on that. And nothing to add.

    Someone stated in an earlier post that the press were leaning towards the palestinians, that is one of the most ridiculous statments I have ever heard.
    Fact: In EVERY press/news piece I have seen relating to this conflict the palestinians are described as TERRORISTS. And Why? because they "defend thier country, by whatever means, RIGHT OR WRONG".
    You would be expected to defend YOUR country against an aggresor, wouldn't you? By whatever means?...
    I do NOT attempt to justify the means that are used by the palestinians, they use the resources at there disposal. Israel sends tanks against children throwing stones, yes we have all seen it on the news, how can they defend themselves against a tank, they cant!

    As for Arafat and Sheron, BOTH ARE terrorists, NOW, right NOW, never mind 10 or 20 years ago, they are BOTH terrorising not only the middle east, but the whole god dam world. The hatred each other has is now filtering throughout the globe and may well lead to unrest elsewhere. This is good for nobody.

    When reading the previous posts I was bemused by the apparent Jewish reluctance to accept that there are "murders" carried out by Jewish security forces.
    The sight of the 5 year old boy and his father being shot many many times while crouching against a wall will live with me forever.
    The Israeli security forces entering Shatila and Sabra are one part of Israeli history they really wanted to cover up. Shameful....
    As for the palestinians, there reluctance to open dialog is nothing short of disgraceful. Nothing can be acheived without it, even if we don't like whats being said

    The suicide bombs apart, many people are even unaware of the other methods adopted by the palestinians, many just as terrifying to the public.
    Only recently snipers were picking off Israelis at a set of traffic lights, then also gunning down the rescue crews who went to attend the injured. Shocking....

    As for American involvemnt, personally I wouldn't advise it. Everything the yanks touch go wrong, the past speaks for itself. If America wanted the war to stop they could do so tomorrow, yes that soon, but for some reason they are now trying to distance themselves from the conflict, I wonder why!
    Israel would NOT survive without America, plain and simple, if the yanks got there foot out there a#s and started withdrawing support then Israel would crumble fairly quickly. This has been forecast by many respected academics from all nationalities.

    So what to do about the conflict?

    Sorry but I have absolutely no idea, this goes back a lot longer than me so I don't know the full details about land rights, it's far too complicated for me to take a greater interest in. Will peace ever come?
    Sometime!

    I have not sent out to offend anyone, merely stating my opinion on the facts presented to me. If it wasn't for the internet I doubt if I would have gained as much info of the attrocities mentioned by previous posters, I have learned through age not to accept one point of view but to rely on many then make my OWN assumptions.

    You must do the same..........
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
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  13. #63
    SitePoint Wizard
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    Regarding the US involvement...

    What should we do? Sharon and Arafat both requested our help. Yet we are accused of being nosey, and trying to help when no help is wanted.

    If we didn't help them negotiate, then we'd get the other half of the world population accuse us of ignoring the problems that face the region. It's a no-win situation.

  14. #64
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Hey, Bob, could you cut the cussing and avoid the use of ALL CAPS to emphasize your points (the latter being a personal pet peeve of mine). We get what you're trying to say.

    Remember, that this is more of a friendly discussion than a political summit of world leaders, so I doubt that it'll save lives alone. But, it can't hurt to have it and if it expands someone's thinking, then that's doing something (if only something) to stop the violence.

    ~~Ian
    Last edited by Ian Glass; Apr 3, 2002 at 22:50.

  15. #65
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    personal animosity?

    Interesting Time article. The type-face was quite small. Fortunately, I'm an Opera 6 user and was able to magnify the page by 180% to view the text quite comforatably.

    I'm not going to repeat what I've been saying over and over again. But if and when I get around to digging up the available on and offline documents which show that Arafat was always a terrorist and that the current uprising had nothing to do with Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, and that the publication of the Amoz Oz interview of Sharon was falsified, I intend to post them. But I'm not promising, so if someone else has the time for this research by all means go ahead!

    In this post I just want to ask people where they got the idea that the personal animosity between Sharon and Arafat is a factor. I seem to vaguely remember a few reports that indicated that a potential for personal affinity might have evexisted between the two very earthy warriors.

    You want to look at personal vendetas, What utter contempt Arafat must have had for those over-aged yuppies Clinton and Barak, who were sooooo easy for him to dupe! It has come out very clearly that Arafat's rejection the The US brokered Camp David accords, without a counter offer and initiation of the current uprising was taken quite personally by Clinton, Barak and many of the Israeli center-left who supported far reaching compromises to the Paletinians.

    On the contrary, Arafat and Sharon are both non-yuppies. Arafat is not going to laugh at Sharon behind his back and say, "gosh, what a jerk!" like he must have done with Clinton and Barak. And Sharon knows that in Yassir Arafat he has a formidable enemy not to be taken lightly. Under different circumastances, they might have worked very nicely together. But lo, it was not to be!

    Allie, nice to see another old guy on sitepoint. You remeber the 1967 war? You must be even older than me!

    Ian, keep listening to this tread. I still intend to convince you!

    And finally; Itay, your getting just a bit too subtle for me. As we say in middle Israel, "Ani assafsoof ge'eh!" Maybe you've been spending just a bit too much time in England?

    Now I'm going to make a real effort to get out of this very interesting thread and find my way back to asp and database for a while. I really need much more help from my freinds in those subjects.

  16. #66
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Andy - I just have to say - being "assafsoof" (translated into mob - as in crowd, not mafia) is exactly what I am against, as this is what is causing the current breakdown in Israeli Society.

    Bob - Please diffrentiate between Jews and Israeli's, most of the time they have nothing to do with each other, at least in this conflict.

    Regarding my opinion on the press coverage - you're looking at the wrong channel then. CNN/SKY/BBC/NBC and many more news channels are pro-palestinian, interviewing only Palestinians, and so on.

    Quinn - a personal request. I personally think that the situation in Israel, on the terrorism side of things at least, is very much like the post-9/11 happenings. Would you care to comment on that?

    As the Americans are trying to rid the world of OBL and his group, so are we trying to rid our country of terrorists.
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  17. #67
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Itay, you made a very good remak differentiating between jews and Israel's people.

    What has come to my attention is ¿Why aren't you applying the same distinction to palestines? To get rid of your contries terrorists Sharon is devastating the whole Palestinian settlements (I will not call it palestinian terrority or "land" because it is not").

    I have the feeling that both sides of the conflict are mixing concepts to their own side's convenience.

    Israel's integrism (which is now a days in power, from my point of view, that is) speaks of Islamic terrorism to justify de devastation of the whole palestinian nation.

    Islamic integrist talk about jewish integrism and the "great Israel", using the palestinian situation as a excuse to continue the killing and uprise popular support.

    The palestinian situation and Islamic integrism are different issued even if the former is being used as an excuse for the latter.

    Akhol, I have been asking for information that would help me understand Israels point of view, so I would very much appreciate whatever you can bring to us.

    Best regards.

  18. #68
    Alt+F4= User Control ;-) rabmurdy's Avatar
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    Life Goes On

    This is a very uneasy subject to discuss so openly, for that reason i think it is admirable that we are able to do so. As I learn in life, every one has an opinion and a right to be heard, I take great heart from the direction this discussion is taking, ie.the common good.

    Itay, are the Israelis and the Jews not fighting a common enemy together?
    Bob - Please diffrentiate between Jews and Israeli's, most of the time they have nothing to do with each other, at least in this conflict.
    I am slightly confused by your comment about disassociation, in this conflict. Can you expand your thoughts a little?

    Regarding my opinion on the press coverage - you're looking at the wrong channel then. CNN/SKY/BBC/NBC and many more news channels are pro-palestinian, interviewing only Palestinians, and so on.
    Sorry Itay but these are the channels I get most of my news coverage from. If you think these are pro Palestinian then I can only assume you take offence to everything that is said against the Israeli state. If you are not open minded enough to see it from both sides then you have a problem, not everyone else.

    "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter", a famous quote that is applicable throughout the world hot spots.
    So when does a terrorist become a freedom fighter and vice versa?

    Again I don't have the answer, but I am open to enlightenment
    "If something is too hard,give it up. The moral my boy is too never try anything"
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  19. #69
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Tom (Writing tomita is complicated =) - I couldnt agree with you more.

    Actually, the Palestinians are more correct than the Israeli's in their generalism, which is something I truly "hate" my countrymen for.

    After a bombing attack I see dozens of comments on online newspaper websites from Israeli's claiming "Death to Arabs" and so on. As I said earlier - it is such a small faction of extremists in the Arab community that do these suicide bombings and most of the Palestinian people just want peace and to leave quietly, that is my belief, naive or otherwise.

    The Palestinians are correct - they are not talking about racism or anything like that, they are just fighting against Israeli occupation of lands they think are theirs. That is the conflict.

    It is not yet a religious war, and we should all pray that it will not become one - because those are the worst.

    But there are some points of yours that I did not understand, so could you explain them again please

    Regarding Sharon's actions, they are ambivalent. They have a good cause - he does not want to punish all the Palestinians, but unfortunately most of the people are so apathetic to what is going on in their own settlements or just fear those extreme factions that they rather go down with them instead of expell them out of their society - their lies the problem on the Palestinians side.

    My official view - both Israel and the Palestinian authority are run by mobs (crowds - not mafias). People who are extreme in opinion, not necessarily Arafat or Sharon themselves, but the voice heard in both "nations" are the one of the extremes.

    Bob - I have to tell you that most of the things said in the TV reports against Israel are mostly correct, unfortunately of course. But the way it is displayed, and the one sided view of it - that is my problem, that is being pro-palestinian.

    I think that everyone should talk, heck, there should be a weekly spot on CNN with a panel of Israeli's and Palestinians debating.

    The Israeli's and Jews are not fighting the same cause.
    I do not care (99% of the cases) what land we give back - I want to leave peacefully in my country. Jews do care what land we give back, they want the whole country. Jews refer to believers in religion, Israelis refer to inhabitants of this nation. While I am both, in this conflict I am Israeli and not jewish.
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  20. #70
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    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    Quinn - a personal request. I personally think that the situation in Israel, on the terrorism side of things at least, is very much like the post-9/11 happenings. Would you care to comment on that?
    The US is nothing like Israel in that regard. The only time I have been checked by a security guard is when I needed to go to a Universal Studios soundstage this past weekend. He wasn't armed, and didn't search thoroughly.

    Airport security was at its high right when airports reopened after 9/11, but it's pretty much back to normal. There were some soldiers with M-16s standing near security just for intimidation, I think.

    We have been doing almost nothing to fight terrorism locally. Some people joke that the only thing happening is that KFC is putting their sporks behind the counter.

    Here we can just walk into a mall or restaurant without inspection by a guard or submitting our bags to be checked. There is no security whatsoever, but as we can see, this type of security isn't needed here.

    So no, it is nothing like Israel from what I understand.

    If you mean to say that you think it was like Israel right after 9/11, like from 9/11-9/18, I think I would agree. Everyone was scared to death and it seemed as if there were soldiers on patrol. Also, in Chicago at least, there were some fighter planes in the skies. One went at supersonic speeds and created a huge sonic boom (one kid stayed home from school because he thought that was a bomb!).

    Just like in Israel, all of the weblogs had comments like "Death to Arabs" and that sort of stuff. Not so much anymore, though.

    So...it's gotten a lot better here in the US since 9/11.

    p.s. Sorry, this was written at 7 AM, so excuse the rambling sentences and lack of word diversity.

  21. #71
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Quinn - I mean more like the actions the US are currently taking against terrorist countries and the actions Israel is taking against the Palestinian Authority in regards to terrorism there.

    More in the likeness or dislikeness in policy against terrorism.
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  22. #72
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Which points didn't you understand?

    I just differenciated the "two wars" going on, and said that I think (and that is my personal opinion) that Sharon belongs to the Jewish Integrism and wants the "greater Israel".

    I also have the feeling that he is done every thing in his hand to destroy any posibility of peace with the Palestine from the begining of his mandate; and is using terrorism as an excuse to bring Israel to a war over land.

    This last two days I'm also under the impression that he is stopping all diplomatic efforts to stop the war and negociate by refusing the European Unions' representatives to visit the region: peace cannot be achieved one side only.

    He is being very successfull converting Arafat from a suspect terrorist to a world wide Martyr (Yesterday I saw him compared to Nelson Mandela, and the palestinian situation compared to SouthAfricas' Apartheid).

    By forbiding the foreign press and Isolating the "ocuppied territories" he is also succeeding in giving a very poor impression of the ways of Israel toward democratic principles and civil rights.

    I really think he is doing a very poor favour to Israel.

    This is only the way I am perceiving things, and I may be wrong. And that why I'm asking for a different point of view to convince me I'm wrong.

  23. #73
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    By forbiding the foreign press and Isolating the "ocuppied territories" he is also succeeding in giving a very poor impression of the ways of Israel toward democratic principles and civil rights.
    I've seen Sky and BBC news footage of whats going on in 'occupied territories' today - and by in large it's un-restricted reporting on the current crises from what the Israeli zealots (settlers) and the Palestinian extremists are up to.

  24. #74
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Well if you don't know, Ramala has been completely closed, foreign journalist cannot enter the zone a last week there were foreing diplomats (at least 11 members of the spanish embassy, don't know about other countries)were trapped in Ramala not beign allowed to get out of the zone.

    This is the link I have found in english,

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...386474,00.html

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/733119.asp?cp1=1

    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/world/1334550

    wow! ¿Only two days ago and we've already conveniently forgotten?

    And it's not the first time, go to google, search for Israel + Press censorship, you get 21.000 matches!

    PS: I'm not trying to imply Israel is the only one doing it. I'm just stating, that this kind of thing in the present situation is not doing a favour to Israel's international image.
    Last edited by t0m|ta; Apr 4, 2002 at 09:42.

  25. #75
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    ramburdy,

    I know I might be a little late for this, but I felt that I needed to say something regarding your previous comments about not learning anything new.

    I, for one, have learned worlds of information from this discussion, and it angered me to see someone disgracing a peaceful talk with negative comments.

    I just needed to get that off my chest.

    I have to catch up on reading this thread as many posts seem to go on while i'm at school.

    I'll see you guys back for more nice discussion after I've finished reading up on this thread again.
    Sean Killeen [LinkedIn] [Twitter] [Web]

    Warning: Reality.sys corrupted. Universe halted. Reboot? (Y/N)


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