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  1. #26
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    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    don't try to pass yourself as trustworthy without showing us the credentials which you claim to have.
    Sorry, I didn't realise that you needed credentials to post comments on this forum. And further, I don't remember saying i did have any credentials!

    Actually I was asked by Ian to remove the link to the site as it contained horrific images.

    qamar

  2. #27
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Yeah sure it was horrific but I had to prove to people that the Israeli police do commit extra
    You claim to be able to prove - that means you assume you have the credentials to prove, the right information, and so on.

    I don't ask for the link, I ask for the source, I know why it was removed.
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  3. #28
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    It was originaly reported on the BBC website. It has also been widely reported in the arab press.

    Questions for you Itay.

    1. Do you think I am making it up?

    2. Was it not reported in the Israeli Press?


    qamar

  4. #29
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    I don't think you are making it up, I am well aware of the said news story.

    I am also aware it was reported in the Israeli press, but not the fact that Israel murdered Palestinians but rather the accusation of such an act.

    My problem with what you say is that you claim to have proof that such an allegation is true.
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  5. #30
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    Ok Itay, seeing that it has been reported in Israel can you find out for us if there is any investigation under way.

    Its quite plain to see in the pictures that he was killed in cold blood.

    I would be really interested in the outcome of any investigation.

    Qamar
    Last edited by qamar; Apr 1, 2002 at 16:44.

  6. #31
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    I'd be very happy to check and will do so when I return to Israel, I am at the moment vacationing in England

    By the way Qamar, if such an investigation is underway, I doubt something meaningful will come out of it, and to that I agree with you. Like any other goverment, we like to sweep these things under the rugs as well. I am not saying that the accusation of point-blank execution is false, but rather that we do not know if it is true or false.
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  7. #32
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Arafat was always doing terror, even while peace negotions were going on;
    http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/ne...hp3?artid=5941
    Why America should fight Palestinian terrorism;
    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/opinion/31FRIE.html

  8. #33
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Andy - I believe it is known worldwide that the PLO was actively doing terrorist activity (by definition) in the last two decades.

    The Americans are quite funny about this whole situation, quite irritating as well.

    Oh well - c'est la vie.
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  9. #34
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    Well Itay! please stay in touch and I hope you have a nice stay here in the UK.

    I also hope that we see some peace in the Middle East soon though right now I think the Hawks are having their day.

    Qamar

    p.s. you might be interested in this site. Being jewish you might think it is one-sided but have a look anyway.


    www.lawsociety.org
    Last edited by Hierophant; Apr 1, 2002 at 22:34.

  10. #35
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Itay Neeman
    Andy - I believe it is known worldwide that the PLO was actively doing terrorist activity (by definition) in the last two decades.

    The Americans are quite funny about this whole situation, quite irritating as well.

    Oh well - c'est la vie.
    I think you are wrong about this, Itay.

    Ian only recently lost his respect for Arafat. Before recent events, Arafat was a well respected freedom fighter, even though it was known, as you claim, that he was a terrorist. But its not just Ian. Heck- he won the nobel peace prize! Even today, it is widely held, especially in Europe, that Sharon is a terrorist and Arafat is merely a victim of terrorism.

    Now, to refoccuss this thread.

    Ian reacted to my criticism of his equation of Arafat with Sharon and explained his reasons for starting this thread. Well, for me, the moral equivalancy thing is the most important thing going on in this thread. So I say that the this point has to be made:


    Arafat is a terrorist. Sharon, despite his shortcommings, is not.


    I still call upon Ian to retract his equation of the two men. I'm not asking him like Sharon. Itay probably didn't vote for him. He certainly wasn't my first choice either. Nobody is saying you have to like Sharon. But don't equate him with Arafat.

    Just one more thing before I log off for the holiday (7th day of Passover):

    This thread had the potential to be quite acrimonious. I want to compliment everyone who has participated in this thread for their maturity, restraint, respect for forum proceedures and tolerance of my spelling errors. Most of you guys are about half my age, some less. If you were my pupils, I would be really proud of you. But since you are actually my teachers (in web development), you strengthen my faith in the future of the WWW (whole wide world).

    Keep it up, Sitepointers!

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Hey Andy, I think you've misinterpreted my statements a bit. I never meant to equate the men morally at all. I'm just trying to say that the practical effect of them is the same.

    The Palestinians will never accept offers of peace from Sharon; they don't trust him, and I personally think with good reason. If I'm not mistaken, it was his visit to the Temple Mount that was the catalyst for this new wave of Palestinian aggression. He commands a great deal of hatred and animosity -- he's not someone that will bring peace.

    We can't rely on either Sharon or Arafat to bring peace; we must take the initiative to bring unity, somehow. That's been my central message in this thread, I hope.


    Anyway, I'm also quite pleased with the way SP members have behaving (see I can be agreeable too ;-). I've been very heartened to see that, for the most part, SitePoint members are respectful and considerate. It's a good thing. I'd like to see more people contributing though, so I invite you all who have opinions to express to jump in when ever you feel the urge. I don't bite (can't really speak for the rest though). ;-)

    ~~Ian

  12. #37
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    We're generally an agreeable bunch.

    Honestly, I'm glad to see such a wide range of oppinions presented in such a peaceful manner.

    I believe the central point is the same here: Neither of the men will bring about peace. You've seen that from both sides of the debate. The question is how to achieve peace without them. It's no longer a 'lesser of two evils' debate. It is a question of how to move on without the leaders, or how to help the leaders realize their shortcomings.

    'Till next time..

    Edit:

    Thanks for the compliment, akohl.
    Last edited by goober; Apr 2, 2002 at 12:52.
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  13. #38
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    I have the feeling that may be a historic perspective would be good for this thread.

    This situation hasn't started after 9/11 or even two years ago. It can go back to 1948, 1917 or even before that.

    I'm not an expert in history of the region myself. And I think many people would like concise in depth information about the 20th Century historiy of the middle east.

    I cannot send any resources in english because I do not know the sources enough. In my own language the best recource I've found ishttp://www.elmundo.es/especiales/200...nte/index.html. This newspaper is clearly pro palestinian, but at least tries to give an historic impresion

    http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/engli..._palestinians/

    The bbc has also got tons of information on the subject:
    Maybe some of you who know the situation better could provide some links with historic information
    Last edited by t0m|ta; Apr 2, 2002 at 14:22.

  14. #39
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Tom - I believe most of the entire conflict is based on which history and from what period you look at it.

    Anything specific you want to know? I know most of it and I'd be glad to check anything I dont know up.
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  15. #40
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    Reasons why I believe Sharon is a war criminal. Just some info on what happened at Sabra & Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon.

    http://www.indictsharon.net/


    qamar

  16. #41
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    In Spain, the public opinión on the conflict is uninformed and simplistic:

    The conflict started in 1948 when Ben Gurion declared the Estate of Israel. And that from then on Israel kept invading its neighbours and this situation is just a consecuence of Israel's expansionist policy. And we (countries) are admitting this because we feel guilty towards Israel's peoples.
    And for the las 15 years we've been "bombed" with this point of view.

    But as the bbc says, the story has two faces:


    For the Palestinians the last 100 years have brought colonisation, expulsion and military occupation, followed by a long and difficult search for self-determination and for coexistence with the nation they hold responsible for their suffering and loss.

    For the Jewish people of Israel, the return to the land of their forefathers after centuries of persecution around the world has not brought peace or security. They have faced many crises as their neighbours have sought to wipe their country off the map.
    In Spain, few people know about the Mandate territories (ARTICLE 22 OF THE COVENANT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS),The Balfour Declaration in 1917 or the Sykes-Picot secret agreement.

    I have the feeling this is happening, more or less all over Europe.

    The trouble is, that information as you say

    on which history and from what period you look at it.
    I've been reading at the bbc site, and the UN site, appart from the spanish newspapers.

    And my problem is I do not know the history enough to "judge" que quality of the information i'm reading unless it is titled "the jewish weekly" or "the arab cause".
    Last edited by t0m|ta; Apr 2, 2002 at 16:45.

  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    I am learning things by the minute in this thread. Would anyone care to toss a counter to this argument about Sharon?
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  18. #43
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    (CBS) Israel revoked the credentials of two Abu Dhabi TV journalists and threatened legal action against CNN and NBC for ignoring military orders and broadcasting from the Israeli-occupied West Bank city of Ramallah.

    CBS News Correspondent Kimberly Dozier reports that it's now nearly impossible to film Israeli actions in Ramallah. Journalists risk arrest if they venture outside anywhere in the town.

    ...

    The Government Press Office also said it had sent written complaints to CNN and NBC, whose correspondents continued broadcasting from Ramallah after Israel declared the city a closed military zone, off limits to journalists.

    "If they do not stop violating Israeli law, the State of Israel will be compelled to take the steps to which it is obliged by law," the statement said, without elaborating.

    ...

    In New York, the Committee to Protect Journalists issued a protest letter to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon saying Israel had an obligation to allow journalists to work freely in the West Bank.

    "Attempting to prevent journalists from witnessing events on the ground is a flagrant act of censorship," the letter said. The group also expressed alarm at "several incidents in which Israeli troops have fired on working journalists."

    ...

    On Monday, Israeli forces expelled a CBS News television crew from Ramallah, a move that prompted a strong protest from the Foreign Press Association in Israel.
    Also reported at MSNBC among others.

    ~~Ian

  19. #44
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    On the subject of the Sabra and Shatila masacre, the BBC "Panorama" has a very througout investigation:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/aud...00/1381328.stm

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy TheOriginalH's Avatar
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    Wow - that transcript is very saddening.
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  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    (CBS) Americans' sympathies are with Israel in the current fighting in the Middle East, and most say Israel's recent action sending troops to surround Yasser Arafat's headquarters was justified, according to a CBS News poll.

    But many also have concerns and criticisms about Israel's response - with nearly seven in ten believing Israel's actions will only lead to more suicide attacks.

    By a margin of five to one, Americans sympathize more with Israel. Fifty-two percent say that, while just 10 percent sympathize more with the Palestinians. Fifteen percent, however, sympathize with neither. Americans reactions today are not much different from the sentiments they have expressed in the past.

    ...

    However, while Israel's actions are supported, there are also criticisms: By 51 percent to 30 percent, Americans say Israel was too quick to get its military involved and should have tried harder to reach a diplomatic solution

    In addition, by 47 percent to 28 percent, Americans support the United Nations resolution passed over the weekend for Israel to withdraw from some of the occupied areas.

    But what may bother Americans most is the worry that Israel's military actions may only have made things worse. Sixty-three percent say Israel's military response has made terror attacks against the Jewish state more likely. Hardly any think the attacks have made Israel safer.

    In addition, Americans don't think the Palestinian suicide bombers represent all other Palestinians. 33 percent think the bombers do represent most Palestinians, while 53 percent say they represent the views of only a few.

    ...

    Barely half the public thinks the U.S. could do something to establish peace in the Middle East. Forty percent think it could not. As for specific actions, there is narrow support for sending U.S. peacekeepers to the area - an option that the Bush administration recently rejected.

    By 49 percent to 43 percent, Americans would support sending U.S. troops as part of a peacekeeping force, although by a similar margin, they doubt that U.S. peacekeepers could make a difference.

    In general, while American sympathies lie with Israel, there is as much support for doing nothing as there is for taking a public stand in support. And on the other side, there is more support for keeping quiet than there is for criticizing the Palestinians and their leader Yasser Arafat.

    ...

    Despite their ambivalence about U.S. involvement in the Middle East conflict, many Americans see a link between what happens there and what could happen in the United States. Nearly half - 46 percent - say that the current fighting between Israel and the Palestinians makes a terrorist attack against the United States more likely.

    ...

    Most of the public is withholding judgment on Sharon as a person - nearly two-thirds express no opinion, positive or negative, about him. Most have a view of Arafat - and it is decidedly negative. In fact, his 2 percent favorable rating ranks as among the lowest ever recorded.

    The Sharon-led Israeli government also scores better than Arafat on the perception that it wants peace enough to make real concessions in order to achieve it. But many have doubts about Israel, too. Thirty-three percent say the Israeli government is willing to make concessions, but 47 percent say it is not.

    The public is clearly negative on Arafat's commitment to peace. In fact, it is now even more negative than it has been in the past. Just 14 percent believe Arafat wants peace enough to make real concessions in order to get it, and only 10 percent believe he has done all he can to achieve peace.

    But many Americans also believe that what may be required to reach the goal of peace with Israel is out of Arafat's control. By more than two to one, the American public believes Arafat is unable to control the actions of Palestinian suicide bombers.
    There's a bit of the view from over here. This poll has a margin of error of about four points either way. Personally, my feelings generally fall within those expressed in the poll (save my opinions of Sharon). Sorry to quote so much of it, though, but I thought it interesting.

    ~~Ian

    P.S. I'd be real interested to see what other peoples around the world think of all this. If anyone can dig up some local public opinion coverage, that'd be great. :-)
    Last edited by Ian Glass; Apr 3, 2002 at 10:20.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    (VOA) Egypt is cutting government-to-government contacts with Israel except those diplomatic contacts that serve the Palestinian cause.

    Egyptian Information Minister Safwat el-Sharif made the announcement amid mounting pressure in Egypt to break diplomatic ties and expel the Israeli ambassador.

    Egypt stopped short of totally cutting off relations with Israel.
    Certainly the international isolation resulting from the current actions of the Sharon administration cannot be helpful to the progression of Israeli and Palestinian peace.

    ~~Ian

  23. #48
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Nobody seems to like us anymore... Oh well...
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  24. #49
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    let's continue to apply pressure to Arafat: Colin Powell

    http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/02/powell.cnna/index.html

    ZAHN: Secretary Powell, do you think it was helpful that Sharon offered, once again, Arafat exile? Is that going to move the two sides any closer to the peace table?

    POWELL: Oh, I don't think it will have any effect one way or the other. Chairman Arafat is head of the Palestinian Authority, and he is recognized -- whether you approve of it or not -- as the leader of the Palestinian people. And he will be the leader of the Palestinian people whether he is sitting in Ramallah or whether he is sitting in some exile location elsewhere in the Middle East or somewhere in Europe. He will still have that role.

    So it seems to me let's deal with him where he is and let's continue to apply pressure to him and other leaders of the Palestinian people to get into the Tenet work plan.

    In due course, the Israel Defense Forces will finish the military actions they have under way. They are trying to uproot terrorist infrastructure, seize weapons, things of that nature. That will come to an end. They have no intention of staying in those occupied areas. It's not something over time.

    And when they withdraw, we will find that we are going to need a political process to move forward and that process is there waiting.
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  25. #50
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Bethlehem church under siege

    More than 100 armed Palestinian police have taken refuge in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem - built on the spot where Christians believe Jesus was born.
    Israeli tanks are surrounding the church, where priests, nuns and other civilians are also besieged.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1908600.stm
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