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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Arafat and Sharon

    I remember being disheartened when Sharon won the election to become Israel's Prime Minister. I'm fairly convinced that he is guilty of war crimes in Lebanon; I know there're many who agree with that, too. His election didn't seem to be a prudent or wise move at the time, and now some of my fears have seemingly come to fruition.

    At one point, I actually respected Arafat a lot. That perception was badly shaken after his refusals during the Camp David summit with Clinton and Barak. That perception was shattered after the discovery of the large cache of weapons heading for the Palestinian territories ordered by his organization.

    Now, my feelings for both Arafat and Sharon are essentially the same. Both are criminals. Both are terrorists. Nether should be in control of a cult, nerveless a country or people.

    The past many months have seen the introduction of female Palestinian suicide bombers and a conspiracy to assassinate an American Congressmen by Jewish extremists. This is no good. Sorry to state the obvious, but in times like these, the obvious can be one of the hardest things to find.

    With the Palestinian authority under siege and more and more suicide bombings on the horizon, extremists from both sides are gaining power -- the only ones gaining power. That makes 'no good' even worse.

    It's time for whatever's left of sensibility and those who possess it to exercise whatever remaining power available to quell the violence. It's not the time to dig into political positions though that's our first impulse. Blame is irrelevant. Damage is irrelevant. Wrongdoing is irrelevant. Nothing matters now except peace.

    ~~Ian

  2. #2
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    Now, my feelings for both Arafat and Sharon are essentially the same. Both are criminals. Both are terrorists. Nether should be in control of a cult, nerveless a country or people.
    well.. i agree completely with u .. but the people decided them as leaders and so we cannot do something without it

    BTW .. i have a personal viewpoint here --

    i agree that USA is a powerful nation and tries helping other nations , but what it says isnt always CORRECT .. this is a problem of this two nations and instead of bringing them toghether on a desk for head to head talk.. it supports Israel for waging a war against Palestine and isolating Arafat ! .. this is sick as it wants support of Israel agains Iraq...
    its like now it helps Pakistan for war in afghanistan but didnt help India when UNO passed a resolution against Pakistan to provide back Kashmir !!
    Peace.

  3. #3
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir

    its like now it helps Pakistan for war in afghanistan but didnt help India when UNO passed a resolution against Pakistan to provide back Kashmir !!

    Why should America help India or any other country? America will do whatever good for America. There is no point at all in begging for America's help in Ind-Pak problem. That's our problem, not America's.

    Please don't drag India/Pakistan/Jammu&Kashmir into this issue.
    Last edited by Indian; Mar 30, 2002 at 05:26.
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  4. #4
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    whos dragging India/Pakistan into it.. i was just giving an example of the diplamtaic policy its using and BTW syam .. if America will do whatever good for America and forgets the world interest than it wont survive !!

    Ps - i dont want it to interfere in our problem too.. but i dont want it to play such policies in ISRAEL and PALESTINE too ..
    Peace.

  5. #5
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir
    but i dont want it to play such policies in ISRAEL and PALESTINE too ..
    But what do Americans want?
    http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/gallup.html
    http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-...ard_Arabs.html

    the world interest
    What's it?
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  6. #6
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Ian, peace is the only thing that matters now, yes.

    The problem is getting them to see that. When children are bred on the hatred of another society, bad things happen. Honestly, I think we need to start with the children.

    When people become desensitized and used to violence as a part of everyday life, worse things begin to happen.

    Also, America does look out for world interests..I just think we give priority to issues that can affect us in one way or another first. This would be expected of any country, am I correct?

    Ian, I also haven't heard of these allegations of war crimes against Sharon, and I'd like to learn more. Do you have any links available to me for further study?

    And you're right about the extremists gaining power..but how do you control extremists when more and more are practically bring bred everyday?

    Gives someone much to think about.

    'Till next time..
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  7. #7
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Peace Please

    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    I remember being disheartened when Sharon won the election to become Israel's Prime Minister. I'm fairly convinced that he is guilty of war crimes in Lebanon; I know there're many who agree with that, too.
    I certainly don't agree with that. Let's stick to the facts. He has been accused of not being vigilant enough in his responsibility to protect the lives of civivilians in a war zone. He has not been accused of killing civilians or sending other people to do so. Compared to what Arafat openly admits to, Sharon's mistakes were not war crimes.

    At one point, I actually respected Arafat a lot. That perception was badly shaken after his refusals during the Camp David summit with Clinton and Barak. That perception was shattered after the discovery of the large cache of weapons heading for the Palestinian territories ordered by his organization.
    And before that you respected him more than Sharon!? It's a well known fact that he is the head of an organization that has been directing massacres against civilians for a long time now. I detect a bit of racism in your logic. You are saying that you respected Arafat during a period when he was doing on an ongoing basis things that were much worse than what Sharon was accused of. How did he manage to earn your respect?


    Now, my feelings for both Arafat and Sharon are essentially the same. Both are criminals. Both are terrorists. Nether should be in control of a cult, nerveless a country or people.
    My feelings about this statement?

    Is that it is extreemly thoughless and hurtful. Every day, people murder my friends and neighbors and then quietly drive or walk a hundred meters or so to escape into areas under Arafat's control. These people are sent by Arafat and suported by him. And they are shooting unarmed civilians who are just driving their cars on public roads on their way to work, shopping, family visits, hospitals, or wherever. How can you put my prime minister in the same category? Even during the current attacks on the PA, Ariel Sharon's government insists that our military informs them first so that they can evacuate the targedted buildings in advance of attack.

    You mourned the vicitims of 9/11? How can you be so insensitive to the victims and mourners of Israel's daily and hourly 9/11?

    Shame on you!

    Ian, if you feel that I am unfair in morally castigating you, It's because I sense that you have a sense of fairness and decency and will understand what I'm saying. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time or yours.

    Peace, please!

  8. #8
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by goober

    Ian, I also haven't heard of these allegations of war crimes against Sharon, and I'd like to learn more. Do you have any links available to me for further study?
    If you don't mind, I will answer for Ian.

    Return of the Terrorist. The Crimes of Ariel Sharon.

    Profile of A Terrorist: Ariel Sharon - Mein Kampf in Hebrew

    I just think we give priority to issues that can affect us in one way or another first. This would be expected of any country, am I correct?
    Yes
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  9. #9
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    I'm OK

    They just hit my neighborhood's ambulance station.
    I'm ok, in case any of you were wondering...

  10. #10
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Suicide attack kills at least 14 in northern Israel

    A suicide bomber set off a massive explosion Sunday at a restaurant in the northern Israeli city of Haifa, killing at least 14 people, police and ambulance sources said.

    Hamas has claimed responsibility for the attack
    .....
    "We are in a war, and in a war you suffer casualties," Israeli government spokesman Ra'anan Gissin said Sunday. "But this will not deter us."
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  11. #11
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Arafat's own

    The attack in Efrat was claimed by the el-Aksa brigade, an affiliate of Arafat's own Fatah.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Andy, please understand that my original comments didn't allocate degree. I purposely left it that way. If I were to assign a scale of pain, it would be counter to the message. Both Arafat and Sharon are but mere actors representative of various mentalities. The point is both sides have suffered at each other's hands; trying to determine who's caused more suffering never mitigates the fact that both have suffered.

    My purpose with bringing these two men in is that I don't believe peace will ever come at their hands. None of us can afford to rely solely on our leaders to provide peace. Peace is not a top down affair. It begins and ends with the people, and on some level, it begins and ends with each individual. Neither Arafat nor Sharon will ever usher in security for their respective constituents and we can't rely on them to do so.

    Andy, if you're wondering, I don't hold any ill will towards you and wasn't offended by what you wrote. On the contrary, I really do respect and appreciate your comments. You're one of the few people that's directly involved in this who's replied to anything about this issue. I can understand your comments, too, and I don't think they were unfair. There're merely an expression of what you felt when you read what I wrote (perhaps with slight editing), correct?


    Finally, Sean, communication is the only way to destroy terror. Truth undermines lies. Information dissolves fear. Dialog defeats hate. You are right that we must start with the children, but remember we can't write off the current generation. Children are at the mercy of their parent's perceptions and, in many cases, misperceptions. The current generation must be addressed in order to have a meaningful and lasting peace.

    ~~Ian

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    (CBS) Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Sunday that his country "is at war" and would strike relentlessly at Palestinian militants.

    ...

    The afternoon blasts brought to five the number of suicide bombing in five days. The blast in Haifa ripped open a large hole in the roof of the Arab-owned Matza restaurant, outside the Grand Canyon shopping mall. The explosion shattered tables, blew out windows and covered the floor with twisted piles of metal.

    Sunday's back-to-back explosions were expected to accelerate a major Israeli offensive in Palestinian areas. Israel launched the campaign last week in response to a string of bloody attacks on Israeli civilians. On Sunday, there were first signs of unease in Israel that the military offensive had not been defined in time and scope.

    ...

    China said it feared "disastrous consequences" for the Middle East "if unexpected incidents took place to Arafat's safety," Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan told his Israeli counterpart, Shimon Peres, in a phone call Sunday, the Xinhua News Agency reported.

    German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer echoed those concerns, saying the escalation of violence risked "a destabilization of the entire region."

    The Islamic militant group Hamas said it carried out the attack in Haifa to avenge Israel's incursion into Ramallah. "We will continue the martyrdom attacks on Israel until the full withdrawal from Palestinian territory," Hamas announced over mosque loudspeakers in the West Bank refugee camp of Jenin.

    Witness Shimon Sabag described the horrific scene of "watching people on fire" and being unable to help them all. "I couldn't deal with the critical injuries, so I turned to the moderate," Sabag told Israel Radio. "I tried to put out the fire. Even the moderate injured were on fire."

    ...

    Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said Israel has no intention of harming Arafat. "We don't want to turn it into a world war, into a regional war. We don't want to turn the entire world against us," Peres said.

    However, the Israeli army spokesman, Brig. Gen. Ron Kitrey, acknowledged that Arafat was at risk, even if he was not a target. "We must remember that he (Arafat) is not sitting in a monastery. He is surrounded by armed people, including his guards," he told Israel Radio.

  14. #14
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ian Glass
    Andy, please understand that my original comments didn't allocate degree. I purposely left it that way. If I were to assign a scale of pain, it would be counter to the message. Both Arafat and Sharon are but mere actors representative of various mentalities. The point is both sides have suffered at each other's hands; trying to determine who's caused more suffering never mitigates the fact that both have suffered.

    My purpose with bringing these two men in is that I don't believe peace will ever come at their hands. None of us can afford to rely solely on our leaders to provide peace. Peace is not a top down affair. It begins and ends with the people, and on some level, it begins and ends with each individual. Neither Arafat nor Sharon will ever usher in security for their respective constituents and we can't rely on them to do so.
    Ian.

    You think that by being even handed you are being fair?

    What if I were to say, "Oh Osama bin Laden and Bush...each side has caused so much pain to the other..." Wouldn't that sound idiotic? Bush became president of the greatest democracy in the World. Bin Ladin did nothing but blow up restaurants and knock down buildings. Does obl's credintials justify putting him on equal footing with Bush?

    I see equating Arafat with Sharon as the same idiocy. And you did equate the two. I think you should retract that equation.

    I'm not saying that that Palestinians have not suffered. I'm just saying that their leaders have opted for terror as a strategy and the population has not rejected the policies of their leaders. And in a dictatorship, peace, war, everthing is a top down thing.

  15. #15
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    In reply to Akohl...

    I agree with Ian Glass, The israeli people made a big mistake in electing someone like sharon. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a war criminal and by electing him you sent a message to the Palestinians that you were going to solve this issue with war.

    Israel has up to this day not learnt that by degrading, humilating and forcing the palestinians to live in a virtual hell you are only breeding generations of people who will detest you and some will even pay the ultimate sacrifice by becoming human bombs.

    You have made them this way by the way you have treated them.

    Maybe Akohl can give us the figure on how many children have been shot and killed by Israeli soldiers. Maybe you can explain the secret pictures showing an unarmed palestinian being shot in the head in cold blood by Israeli police and then strapped with a bomb to frame him.

    Qamar

  16. #16
    SitePoint Zealot akohl's Avatar
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    Originally posted by qamar
    In reply to Akohl...

    Maybe Akohl can give us the figure on how many children have been shot and killed by Israeli soldiers. Maybe you can explain the secret pictures showing an unarmed palestinian being shot in the head in cold blood by Israeli police and then strapped with a bomb to frame him.

    Qamar
    No I cannot explain every secret picture. But the government that I elected is obligated to us to defend us in a way that we demand which means by being careful to keep civilian casualties on both sides to a minimum. No innocent civillian is targeted by our military or police. And if they did, they would be subject to disciplinary or criminal proceedings.

    True, there have been innocent deaths on both sides. The difference is that those who killed Palestinian civilian did so accidentally, while they were attacking terrorists and they are not considered heroes by Israeli society by the deaths that they caused. Israeli civilian victims have been targeted by terrorists and are considered heroes by their people and the official Palestinian media.

    I think that this is an important difference.

    Qamar,

    Are you implying by your words, "ultimate sacrifice" that you respect or in any way admire these bombers for what they did? What drove the guys who flew those planes into the twin towers to pay the unlimate sacrifice?

    I will conclude with the words of Israel's chief Rabbi, Yisrael Meir Lau who said (approximatley);

    "They are mistaken to think that they will go to heaven as a reward for turning this world into hell."

  17. #17
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    Let me make it very clear. I do not agree with the suicide bombers. I hate war in all its forms....But what makes me sick is the hypocracy of the Israeli government. 5 palestinian policemen shot in the head...check the news. War crimes are being commited on both sides.

    So don't keep crying about israel fighting a war against terror because it is Israel who has also used terror to brutalise a whole nation.



    qamar

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by akohl

    No I cannot explain every secret picture. But the government that I elected is obligated to us to defend us in a way that we demand which means by being careful to keep civilian casualties on both sides to a minimum. No innocent civillian is targeted by our military or police. And if they did, they would be subject to disciplinary or criminal proceedings.


    Here is a link to that killing.

    Link removed by qamar upon ians request

    Maybe you would like to ask your government for an explanation for it?


    qamar
    Last edited by qamar; Apr 1, 2002 at 05:45.

  19. #19
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    Sharon now discarded the UN resolution of letting go Arafat .. but that is a UN Resolution and not a small decision .. this problem cannot be solved if they dont sit on a negotiating table !! .. denying this resolution according to the UN means that Israel be declared a ' rebel ' nation .. but it isnt !! .. we make our laws and then we break it ..
    Peace.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard Ian Glass's Avatar
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    Andy, I'd like you to know that there're many, many Israelis that I respect, but Ariel Sharon is not among them. Whether Yasser Arafat is a better man, worse or equal to your Prime Minister shouldn't sway my feelings towards either man, I believe. In any event, I'm not going to argue this further since I think it's really distracting to the central theme of what I'm attempting to say, though, I do want to continue to see you post and debate more here.

    I believe that for Israelis and Palestinians to have peace, the leaders or both parties have to be respected by the other party. I get the strong feeling that neither Arafat nor Sharon are well respected by the opposing sides. Arguing about who's worse among those two is moot, because the end result is the same.

    However there're things that the average Israeli, average Palestinian and the average foreigner can do (however insignificant) to help quell the violence. There's no need to wait for either Arafat or Sharon to come up for reelection and hope for the best. I don't exactly know what we can do now though, but I'm convinced that we can do something.

    That's why I started this thread and I hope more people will participate to do the same. It's not much, but hopefully dialog is better than silence.
    _______

    Now, in my role as a mentor (though not on behalf of SitePoint), I'm going to ask you to remove the link you've provided, Qamar (and anyone else who has especially graphic evidence to share). I personally feel it's simply too graphic -- remember that the audience here ranges from about thirteen and older. I believe, simply being aware of this evidence is enough to provide a substantive argument. If any member is interested in obtaining the source information for close examination, they can always contact the poster.

    If you'd like, I'm sure there'd be little objection to you posting a subset of relevant text from the link, but make sure that they're not too graphic or gratuitous. I hope you all understand my request and concerns here. I also hope you don't feel this to be an impediment to free speech or expression; I really don't mean it to be.

    ~~Ian
    Last edited by Ian Glass; Apr 1, 2002 at 00:28.

  21. #21
    SitePoint Zealot t0m|ta's Avatar
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    Over the last 10 years I've seen many times in he news the image of Israel's policemen shooting at 8-13 year old "palestinian terrorists" who were causing "terror" throwing stones.

    I also had an Israeli young friend that did not want to go to colledge because he was affraid of taking the bus. Now he is dead.

    It's time for whatever's left of sensibility and those who possess it to exercise whatever remaining power available to quell the violence. It's not the time to dig into political positions though that's our first impulse. Blame is irrelevant. Damage is irrelevant. Wrongdoing is irrelevant. Nothing matters now except peace.
    That is exactly the question, but I'm sorry to say it's wishfull thinking. It never happens that way

    Maybe Sharon's policy will be succesfull and The "Palestinian Authority" (or whatever it is called in english) will cease to exist. Maybe the palestinians will send enough suicide bombers to convert Israel in a desert country.

    But none of these theoreticall extreme outcomes would put an end to the killings. Because killed people have friends, relatives, co-workers... that get radicalised with each new killing.

    Time comes when you can only see your own suffering, you forget your own side's wrongdoings because the other side is Evil and justice and reason assists you.

    I've seen it happen before here in Spain, at a much lesser scale of course, but the feelings on both sides are the same.

    U kill me, I kill u more and then I "forget I killed you" and only remember that you killed me. You are evil and "absolute truth" is on my side.

    As I watch the news I can foresee I very dark future for all of us, a future world that is mixture of Orwell's "1984" and John Carpenter's "escape from New York".

    And I don't like it


  22. #22
    Say WHA?! goober's Avatar
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    Ian, I'm glad you mentioned about that link. I was pondering whether to mention something about it when I read your post.

    The point is there. Killing has happened on both sides. And there isn't a person here who won't admit that there's lawless, horrible killings and murders committed on behalf of both sides daily.

    So, the point is, if Sharon and Arafat can't work things out and only heighten extremism, then how do we replace them without getting worse leaders?

    It's like Russian Roulette..and someone always gets the bullet in this case.
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  23. #23
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    I agree with Ian Glass, The israeli people made a big mistake in electing someone like sharon. There is no doubt in my mind that he is a war criminal and by electing him you sent a message to the Palestinians that you were going to solve this issue with war.
    Qamar - are you familiar with the Israeli law once a prime minister resigns office? Ehud Barak was prime minister beginning from May 99 to Feb 2000. Some people feel that he was a terrible prime minister, and he then resigned office. When a prime minister resigns office, only other ministers in the knesset (our form of senate) can be elected to the role of prime minister. So the election was between Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon, and it had the lowest ever voting percentages, around 30% of all Israeli voted, and since people did not believe in Barak anymore, they just voted Sharon.

    I don't think Sharon is right for the job. Whether or not he committed war crimes though is irrelevant. If you judge people only by their past you will never get forward. Arafat, on the same hand, during the last few years prior to the occurences of October 2000 was also a willing partner in peace, whether it was with Rabin, Barak or Netaniyuh.

    But, as was pointed earlier, Arafat decided that what he was offered at Camp David was not enough to bring back to his people, so he refused it. Somewhat of a legitimate case, extremely stupid, but legitimate.

    Qamar - I have to ask you - where do you get so much information that you are so knowledgable in how the people in the Palestinian Authority live? You live with them? Talk with them? Watch the media?

    The state of Israel is no saint and I will not try to make it to be one, because I myself do not believe it.
    But we did not force the deterioration of any infrastructure in the Palestinian Authority, but rather we helped them.

    I would just like to say that both Israel and Palestine (even though such a territory does not exist) are both right and both wrong.
    The Israeli settlements in the conquered territory should be evacuted immediatley(sp?), as they are illegal by all international treaties and just help to escalate the war.
    The palestinians suicide bombers should cease and desist as well, and I don't think I need to explain why.

    The problem with both authorities is not that everybody wants war, it is that the mob in both wants war. People who do not want war, people who do not want to harm others, they usually just protest (which is fine and should continue) and move on, because there is nothing more they can do. Problem is they just aren't heard (I am talking about Israel). On the other hand, the mob for some reasons seems to control the country and to make sure it runs in the way they want it to run, and I really have no idea why this happens.

    On the palestinian side though, there is a more serious problem. As much as it is said to be a democratic authority, it is not. The Palestinian Authority is a remnant of the Organization to Free Palestine, a terror organization that was active for 20 years prior to Rabin's intervention and the beginning of the peace process. Arafat is very much a dictator there, although chosen by democratic means and although he can be brought down, but people are just to afraid to do it, and I can see why.

    My last note - the media is pro-arab. I am very sorry to say that, but that is true. In 1948, when the Israelis' had their Independence War, they were the underdog and everybody loved them (although nobody knew since it was not such a global village as it is today). But now, the Palestinians are the underdog under the arms of the horrible an evil conquerer of Israel (cynical note of course), and so it is portrayed in the media, and so everybody see's this.

    99.9% of the Israeli Army does not performed unwarranted executions on Palestinians, nor does it intently kill small children. Accidents do happen though, and the people in charge of those accidents are usually brought to justice by the court.

    The 0.01% percent which do these things intently should be sentenced as murderers and put into jail, no question about it.

    Just don't believe anything you hear on the media.

    Itay
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  24. #24
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    Now, in my role as a mentor (though not on behalf of SitePoint), I'm going to ask you to remove the link you've provided, Qamar (and anyone else who has especially graphic evidence to share). I personally feel it's simply too graphic -- remember that the audience here ranges from about thirteen and older. I believe, simply being aware of this evidence is enough to provide a substantive argument. If any member is interested in obtaining the source information for close examination, they can always contact the poster.
    Ok I removed the link as you asked. Yeah sure it was horrific but I had to prove to people that the Israeli police do commit extra-judicial executions and that people should always think twice before they believe that everyone shot by them are terrorists. By the way these images were shown on the bbc website so I thought it would be ok here.

    Anyway I've removed the images and copied the text here.

    Last Friday afternoon, 8 March 2002, 22-year-old Mahmoud Salah from Beit Wazan near Nablus was shot in the head by Israeli police in Beit Hanina, a Palestinian neighborhood in occupied east Jerusalem. After being shot the young man was left to bleed to death. The press (the Arabic electronic page of the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot) reported that police officers at the scene had acted under direct instructions of Jerusalem Police chief Mickey Levy.


    In order to justify the killing, Israeli police sources claimed that Mahmoud Salah had resisted arrest and stopped a sapper from defusing explosives. In its Arabic internet edition, Yediot Ahronot reported as follows:


    Upon arrival of police officers including police chief Mickey Levy, and when the sapper stated that he could not control the Palestinian and that there was a threat that an explosive device might blow up, Mickey Levy ordered the killing of the Palestinian. A police officer drew his gun and shot the Palestinian in the head at close range. A high-ranking police officer said that the killing was unavoidable "since there was a threat to the police officers".


    However, accounts by eyewitnesses contradict the version given by the Israeli police. According to France Press, 12 Palestinians witnessed the incident from their homes. They asserted that Mahmoud Salah was handcuffed when he was killed. An eyewitness reported to LAW as follows:


    On Friday, 8 March 2002, at 4 p.m., I heard noises outside the building where I live, which is Project 3 of the Nusseibeh Buildings in Beit Hanina. I looked out of the window that overlooks the road in front of the building; the road is only about 8 meters away. I saw how a military jeep stopped the two men. One of them was a guy I know; his name is Randy Audi; he is from Beit Hanina. I did not know the other man but I later learnt that his name was Mahmoud Salah.


    Randy was taken at 4.15 p.m. in a military jeep to an unknown destination. Mahmoud was forced to lie flat on his face and had his hands cuffed behind his back. The special [police] unit tore down Mahmoud's clothes. He was wearing a light navy blue jacket and a yellow shirt and a dark yellow cotton pair of pants.


    I didn't see any bags with Mahmoud as Israelis claim. I heard how he was questioned about his name and the place of residence. I understood that he was from Nablus and that his name was Mahmoud. There were three members of the special [police] unit surrounding the guy on the ground; they were dressed in dark gray. One of them placed his foot on the guy's head and another was holding his feet and a third was sitting on his knees pointing a gun at him from a distance of approximately 1.5 -2 meters.


    At around 4.30 p.m., the third member shot the guy eight or nine times in the head. Then they left the place and left the guy bleeding. The guy was trying to move and to stand up. At around 5.15 p.m. he stopped moving.

    At around 5.20 p.m. Israeli police brought a robot, which drew a black belt. The strange thing is that I did not see that belt when the police tore down the guy's clothes before he was killed.

    I would like to point out that the soldiers imposed a curfew on the neighborhood and said several times that [people] must not look out of the windows. However, we kept looking out of the windows. When the corps was turned, the right side of the head was open due to the shots. The victim's fingerprints were then taken and photos of the corps were taken. An Israeli ambulance took the victim away from the scene of the incident.
    Itay, don't you think that since sharon came into power more people have died on both sides then ever before. This is exactly what he wanted. But what he is trying to achieve by his strong arm tactics will never work as history has proved. I have a lot of repect for people like Shimon Peres and believe that right know Israel needs someone like him in the driving seat.


    qamar

  25. #25
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Qamar - I may have missed it, but I cant seem to find out where you got that article you posted here. I would be much obligied if you could tell me so I could see it.

    Anyhow, I ask you to look back and see that the whole current situation in the middle east has started mainly in Fall 2000, back when Barak was in power. He then quit and Sharon was elected. So since Sharon was in office throughout most of the current affairs, I would think it only logical to see more people being killed in his tenure than in others, no?

    I am a left-wing activist if thats what you call it, I do not think Sharon should be in office, but that what is happening now, nothing I can do about it.

    He has not done anything that no other right-wing leader would do, and even not a left-wing leader. He is trying to protect his country and for that you cannot blame him.

    Qamar - you seem to hold your sources and yourself as the ultimate authority in who Israelis shoot, no? How do you know those people were not terrorists or using force against the Israelis?

    As you claim other people to give misinformation, why should I not claim you give misinformation?

    You are not more trustworthy than the media anywhere else in the world, as am I not more trustworthy than yourself or the media. Remember that - don't try to pass yourself as trustworthy without showing us the credentials which you claim to have.
    Itay - [email] [icq]
    Darklight Studios - Bringing light into gaming
    Pretzel Wisdom
    - Mine... All Mine! coming soon...


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