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  1. #1
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Future of javascript

    Just a curious note. I am avid javascript user for advanced features as well as basic ones. However I have noticed an interesting trend, I am also looking for opinions.

    1 - CSS as it gains more power is replacing more and more of what javascript was mainly used for. Rollovers and other 'dynamic' tricks.

    2 - With server sided languages being faster than ever they can also replace some of the selling features of using javascript.

    3 - Flash - the most obvious devil spawn against javascript . Flash can do every DHTML can and some. And might I say it is easier and quicker to do. Probably.

    All of these points are replacing what most people use javascript for. So I am curious to know where people think client sided languages will go. Are they going to become more powerful and robust to compete? Will they go the way of do-do bird?I know I still use it but have noticed a large drop in my code due to the wonders and power of css

    BTW You can interchange javascript and DHTML I generally don't specify a difference when I speak of it due to the closeness of the relationship.
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  2. #2
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    well.. maelstorm.. i dont think theres going to be reduction of Javascript Users.. cause it has a lot ofadvanced features still which others dont.. also .. browser can be manipulated with Javascript..

    i think it still can go along way !!
    Peace.

  3. #3
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Maelstrom,
    I bet you were expecting me to throw my two pence worth on this one ;-)

    CSS: Netscape call their dynamic css JSS - Javascript Style Sheets. IE call them dynamic style sheets. Either way, dynamic css is very strongly dependent upon javascript. with the exception of HTA's (which also use the form of javascript syntax anyway) dynamic style sheets (especially external ones) rely on javascript.

    Flash: I don't care, it's proprietary and plugin dependant, so as far as i'm concerned it's not a contender (i'm not blanking out reality, i just realise that dhtml and javascript really *can* achieve anything that flash can, and if anyone doesn't believe that... well then we'll just have to show them.
    (Flash movies are difficult to replicate, but possible).

    With remote scripting (or what i refer to as remote sciption (despite that being a refered name for a very specific technique)) Server-side and client-side languages can live well in harmony. As an example of this i'll refer to the work i did a while ago (and posted here, i think) on country region drop down boxes, refreshed dynamically by javascript, Mason (perl) and Postgres.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  4. #4
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir
    well.. maelstorm.. i dont think theres going to be reduction of Javascript Users.. cause it has a lot ofadvanced features still which others dont.. also .. browser can be manipulated with Javascript..

    i think it still can go along way !!
    I totally agree. But I am a coder. Flash is a very attractive alternative due to its ease of use. To setup a drop down menu from scratch in both. It can be done in flash in no time flat. Javascript requires quite a bit more time.

    Before I go further let me clarify about flash. I do like flash and when it comes to animation it is needed in some circles. This is more a critique about its capabilities in relation to javascript.

    Ok now Flawless I knew you would get in this.


    CSS: Netscape call their dynamic css JSS - Javascript Style Sheets. IE call them dynamic style sheets. Either way, dynamic css is very strongly dependent upon javascript. with the exception of HTA's (which also use the form of javascript syntax anyway) dynamic style sheets (especially external ones) rely on javascript.
    This is true. But not a lot of people have gotten past css. I can read through several forums and I find a number of people slamming javascript without even knowing its capabilities. They don't realize the potential of its advanced event handling or OOP. While JSS does exist, will people use it.


    Flash: I don't care, it's proprietary and plugin dependant, so as far as i'm concerned it's not a contender (i'm not blanking out reality, i just realise that dhtml and javascript really *can* achieve anything that flash can, and if anyone doesn't believe that... well then we'll just have to show them.
    (Flash movies are difficult to replicate, but possible).
    Well I am not an animator. But do agree. But in order to acheive those advanced animations it requires a detailed and very advanced knoweldge of javascript. Either way for me I am not an animator. So really when it comes to either I suck at both

    But you have to admit it is taking a large place on the web. A few years ago (before flash) EVERY animation was done in client side. It was interesting and the code was awesome. But with flash upcoming and future web animators don't need this level of coding.


    Code:
    
    With remote scripting (or what i refer to as remote sciption (despite that being a refered name for a very specific technique)) Server-side and client-side languages can live well in harmony. As an example of this i'll refer to the work i did a while ago (and posted here, i think) on country region drop down boxes, refreshed dynamically by javascript, Mason (perl) and Postgres. 
    
    Agreed. I use both in conjunction. I know what php does better and use it that way. I know what I prefer javascript to do so I use it that way. And yes advanced drop down boxes using multiple drop downs are an excellent example of javascripts power. ...just a small one I might add.

    As for opinions. I still use javascript and will continue to do so. I find it is very powerful and I can do everything I ever need to do. And when coded properly with good reusable code I can reproduce a cascading drop down menu that drags and drop in about 3 minutes.
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  5. #5
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Active X

    I agree... Flash has taken a large percentage of the
    dynamic work away from Javascript in recent years.

    The reason for this is that it's easy for somebody to
    pick up and run with, without very much training at all.

    I prefer to use Active X and directX for my animations.
    You can create an .x file on the fly, or hard code it,
    then animate it... texture it, move it and interact
    with it on web very well, it's just a VERY difficult
    technique to get used to, but it can produce very effective work.

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  6. #6
    ********* obeah makeda's Avatar
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    For the record, I am totally biased, I love javascript. Where I work, we do as much stuff as possible client side purely for performance reasons.
    I agree that server side performance has improved a lot but the bottom line is that a .htm is still served up faster than a .asp, .aspx, .php file...any of them.


    Regarding flash, i like the movies. Otherwise...the files are just too big for me (i also don't like lots of images). A lot of people still use 56k modems and don't want to wait for the navigation bar to load. Personally, I think that this is the future of web animation:

    http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/...l?tw=authoring

    Lastly, you can do a lot of great stuff with javascript/xml/xsl that i don't think can be done with css/xml/xsl (but i could be wrong).

  7. #7
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Luckily I have full creative control over the intranet at work seeing as I am the only one developing it. This leaves a lot of play. So I use javascript where I see a need for immediate updates or impressive effects.
    Maelstrom Personal - Apparition Visions
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  8. #8
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    but what about those title bar moving,redirection, alert,statusbar,mouseovers,etcetc .. such scripting options are higly used today and are mostlyy available in JavaScript.. so this type of commands keep the programmer sticked !!
    Peace.

  9. #9
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir
    title bar moving
    why.. Ruchir...why?
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

    TinyPlanet.org
    Discuss and Debate World Events, Politics and Religion

  10. #10
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    You do have to wonder... sometimes... if people type replies in their sleep!

    Am i the only one that wonders what on *earth* that previous[1] post was about??

    i suppose sometime it helps to look at things from a
    different angle, but try to keep within the scope of
    sanity for us :-p

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  11. #11
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Flawless_koder
    You do have to wonder... sometimes... if people type replies in their sleep!

    Am i the only one that wonders what on *earth* that previous[1] post was about??

    i suppose sometime it helps to look at things from a
    different angle, but try to keep within the scope of
    sanity for us :-p

    Flawless

    If you are talking about my post, I was saying about the "moving title bar" script Ruchir uses in his site.
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  12. #12
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    no no Indian... the previous[1] should have
    hinted to you that it was two posts before mine,
    and hence the same post about which you made a comment.

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  13. #13
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    OK, Sorry!

    BTW, Ruchir is just a little boy. So no harsh words please!
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  14. #14
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Flawless_koder
    no no Indian... the previous[1] should have
    hinted to you that it was two posts before mine,
    and hence the same post about which you made a comment.

    Flawless
    u didnt get what i said? .. i was reffering to the options Javascript gives and they are used a lot by WebMasters today and thats why people prefer JavaScript.. u still dont get me >
    Peace.

  15. #15
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir

    i was reffering to the options Javascript gives and they are used a lot by WebMasters today and thats why people prefer JavaScript..
    I don't think, those "options" are the reason for "people prefering JavaScript"
    I don't know what's the use of a "moving title" or "scrolling status". (Actually, I never look at statusbar. )
    For redirect, I will use .htaccess or any other server side option.
    Better mouseover effects can be done by flash.

    This site uses javascript, but not any of the "options" you said (except "alert"). Not any "nice" site uses such "options".
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  16. #16
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    The use of Javascript is NOT for the reasons you have stated . [ FULL STOP ]

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  17. #17
    The Legend Indian's Avatar
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    I have to learn how to say things in one sentence.
    Death --the last sleep? No, it is the final awakening.

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  18. #18
    JavaScript Guru (Big Ego) Arielladog's Avatar
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    Hey guys,

    This is an interesting topic, so I thought I'd drop by and share my two cents. No one can predict the future but we can all try our best to predict

    JavaScript is definately my favorite language and my first. But, IMO it's on it's way out atleast in the same form that we think of it today.

    With the advent of CSS, I think it enhanced JavaScript's appeal (in the form of DHTML). Server-side languages can do anything javascript can do (just a bit slower). I think server-side language, like PHP, will replace most of JavaScript's "useful" functions. For example, form validation definately needs to be done by server-side (or else it can be overwritten). But for DHTML effects and such, I think Flash is going to wipe it out int he professional field.

    Perhaps I'm cynical, but I really do believe that Flash will take over in the professional world. With the advent of the new Flash, it makes adding many HTML features and other stuff (like form objects) much easier. With flash, an animator can also easily create the files. But what should be noted is the essentially JavaScript is built in with Flash (Actionscript), so why is JavaScript really needed then? Give me an HTML page and you could probably create the same functionality in Flash.

    However, one must also note that Flash won't be affordable to most people so this trend will probably only happen in the professional world.

    To tell the truth, the most alarming trend I've really seen though is JavaScript 2.0 or ECMAScript-262, 4th edition. It looks way to much like Java, defeating the purpose IMO of JavaScript. Any thoughts on that?

    aDog

  19. #19
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir


    u didnt get what i said? .. i was reffering to the options Javascript gives and they are used a lot by WebMasters today and thats why people prefer JavaScript.. u still dont get me >
    I actually believe those options are what drive perfectly decent programmers away. Personally I never ever code anything that is tacky. popups, alert messages, scrolling anything. These are the biggest complaints I have heard from many coders who do not want to learn javascript.

    And welcome to the discussion Adog. I was hoping you would show up here.

    Wow for a javascript fan those are some harsh words. But that is the reason I started the thread. I see the same trends. (in fact even use some of them). I end validate with php. As a front and to keep things interesting I do use javascript but it is strictly for the look.

    Definatley. Javascript and actionscript are very closely related. And with every version of actionscript comes more power. As much as I hate to admit it. Although as long as flash keeps costing a lot and for the advanced movies uses up quite a bit of bandwidth than I don't see it taking over the inet.

    Actually since my induction into server sided languages I have not kept up to date on javascript. How is it like Java. I assume by this you mean even more oop power. Is there any specific links I can read to continue this conversation.

    I did find a couple to brush up. For others I found these

    http://www.mozilla.org/js/language/js20/
    http://www.webreference.com/js/tips/000809.html




    Edit:


    Quick question Adog. What is the purpose of javascript in your opinion? I want to get a feel for where you come from on this issue
    Last edited by Maelstrom; Apr 2, 2002 at 20:16.
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  20. #20
    . Ruchir's Avatar
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    well.. ok .. but what about rollovers and mouse movers and stuff.. people still use them and they ll continue too .. and about animations and stuff.. Flash takes time to load a file while Javascript doesnt..
    Peace.

  21. #21
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Everything takes time to load a file.
    That's the nature of transaction based transfer protocols!

    Maelstrom: did you get my pm?


    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  22. #22
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, and hello to Adog - Maelstrom respects you,
    so i shall too.

    Maelstrom - do you think it's possible for anyone
    to have a bigger clientside ego than me though


    he he.

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  23. #23
    JavaScript Guru (Big Ego) Arielladog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Maelstrom

    Quick question Adog. What is the purpose of javascript in your opinion? I want to get a feel for where you come from on this issue
    Wow! To tell the truth, I asked myself this one and couldn't come up with too many when I wrote my previous response, but I'll try my best this time Basically I use JavaScript for:

    1. Form Validation
    2. DHTML Effects
    3. Image Rollovers

    DHTML Effects is a broad category, but those three topics really cover just about everything I use JavaScript for. Now, I obviously help other people out with their own problems (which can range from a lot of different things), but for me, that's about it.

    The latest thing I've worked on for a while was a slideshow script, but it's a little more complicated:
    http://www.petropac.com/installationslide.asp (what do you guys think of it?)


    What purposes do y'all usually use JavaScript for?

    Flawless_koder, I dunno; mine's pretty big

    With FlashMX, ActionScript really can do just about anything JavaScript can. But, as you and I said earlier, it's just too expensive for the amatuer.

    With JS 2.0, the JavaScript syntax has been manipulated too much to be like Java IMO. THe main differences were beautifully outlined in the Doc. JS Tip. Personally, I just don't like the direction JS is taking now.

    aDog
    Last edited by Arielladog; Apr 3, 2002 at 14:47.

  24. #24
    Perl/Mason Guru Flawless_koder's Avatar
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    I tend to lean towards advanced functionality for javascript.

    I normally use it with Active X, direct Animation,
    direct Draw (directX).

    I also like using the OO abilities of it.

    Maelstrom - i'm sure you're used to seeing how i
    use JS by now.

    Adog - i guess you'll see how i use it around.

    Flawless
    ---=| If you're going to buy a pet - get a Shetland Giraffe |=---

  25. #25
    What? Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ruchir
    well.. ok .. but what about rollovers and mouse movers and stuff.. people still use them and they ll continue too .. and about animations and stuff.. Flash takes time to load a file while Javascript doesnt..
    Yes this is true. But imo most people never get past this. Javascript holds a lot more power than simple rollovers.

    Yes I got your second pm where you said you worked a lot ...If you sent anything after that I didn't get it.

    And flawless to be honest Adog has a pretty big ego but he is humble about and gives out the cudos.

    Those three things are exactly what I use javascript for. As for the effects this is where I am weakest. Not because I couldnt' code it but because I really am not a designer. Another thing I use javascript for is loading with variables for a database and dynamically (without reload) manipulating the information on the screen.

    Wow adog that is a pretty incredible slideshow quite a bit of work and thought went into it.

    Ok Flawless, you seem like a decent combination of programmer (you use functions and oop exlusively) and designer. I am impressed you stick so closely with javascript and don't move to the more expansive flash's etc...
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