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  1. #126
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    There is nothing wrong with this industry. The ones who do the best work also have the best clients and don't have to worry about marketing because they're booked indefinitely. The ones who don't do the best work get the ignorant clients, get tricked into paying for certifications, worry constantly about marketing and hang out on sitepoint forums to argue about the situation. It's called capitalism, and it's working nicely.

  2. #127
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    Why this Industry Sucks

    While I agree that this industry sucks, I still don't see your "fix" as fixing anything. I've put up websites that I'm ashamed to list in my portfolio due to clients and/or employers who refuse to listen to reason.

    I'm a CIW Certified Webmaster and I'd put my designs up against the harshest critic, no problem, however, what does a good designer do when an employer or client refuses to listen to good advice and prefers instead to listen to the amateur office opinions? Refuse to do the work? Drop the Client?

    That's easier said than done if you want a paycheck. I've even pulled Google Analytics to prove my point only to have my employer and/or client say "that's all well and good but I want 'x, y, z, so just do it.' "

    I'd like to hear your opinion for the cure for that scenario.

    Personally, I don't think there is one. In a field where the person who controls the pursestring's personal taste overrules good design, how do you convince someone that they're being a complete idiot, even in the face of statistics which prove the point?

  3. #128
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    Our industry needs to gain credibility

    I spent November reviewing about 70 recruitment company websites for seminars I was presenting at. I had to tell most of them why their websites were crap, why they had no chance of ever appearing in search engine results, and what was wrong with frames, nested tables, validation errors, poor content, lack of calls to action etc..etc..

    Most of the company owners I was presenting to (many very succesful medium sized companies) simply did not know the difference between a good and bad website until it was pointed out. "Beauty is only skin deep": some of the prettier websites were architecturally flawed, framed messes, with jobs pages appearing in Google without parent frames, so "orphaned" from the sites navigation and branding (if they appeared at all); links in Google generating 404's; thousands of lines of nested table code before the real content; lack of any real keyword-rich content; naff intro pages with naff spinning logos etc...etc...

    Many of them asked "how are we meant to know this stuff -- what questions should we be asking of our web designers/developers"...its tricky for these guys. We techies take too much for granted.

    I started my business to help out smaller companies: big companies were getting good quality at a high price; small companies were getting graphic designers who know a bit about the web and jumped on the gravy train, or worse still their nephew/uncle/sister in their bedroom with a dodgy copy of dodgy FrontPage.

    I kind of think some accreditation would be good to help businesses select professionals and get rid of the cowboys and amateurs. We've got a few accreditations but all they took to get was signing up on the website (e.g. UKWDA, BWDMA).

    I think the sector needs to clean itself up and gain some credibility.

    And don't get me started about the SEO marketplace...

  4. #129
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    I Just clicked on this thread and had the following pop:

    Get the Sample Chapters FREE!
    The Web Design Business Kit 2.0
    Dozens of tips and tricks to land big Web Design and Development Clients

    It was kinda of funny in relation to the thread I thought.

    Anyway I think that the industry has a mix of skills that range from the basics to the most cutting edge, thats pretty obvious.

    This industry does not suck at all. If you say that then Im sure you would say that about any job that you have been in long enough for.

    If a client wanted to go with Eric's cousins sister son who is in year 8 to build his website then really thats a client I would not wish to work for anyway. Apply that to anything when going to buy a service and that person sounds downright mad.

    Its a big responsibility on the buyers side to check a supplier out before purchasing their services and also as a web provider being honest with your self that you can match there requirements or give them the advice with what you feel you can provide from your own skill set.

  5. #130
    SitePoint Evangelist superuser2's Avatar
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    I posted way earlier...

    Let me rephrase. This industry thinks it needs to become anti-newbie. You can't just say the incompetent ruin everything so only proven developers should get work.

    The way it works now... it's a little slanted towards anti-professional and pro-newbie, because newbies are cheap.

    Bad programmers don't usually have good portfolios... you hire someone without a portfolio, it's cheap, and you take a chance. Partially the market needs to understand that they gambled and lost, not that all developers/designers are incompetent or unprofessional.

    But we can't ask them to stop gambling. It needs to happen, as it does now.

  6. #131
    SitePoint Member t94xr's Avatar
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    the main flaw I see in the webdesign industry is that the people who want the websites, have a very very very simple understanding of the internet and think webdesigners are just techno geeks who cant give a simple answer.

    I see webdesign agencies go on and build their portfolios as if they were ordering coffees because they are setup to deal with customers in that way. And since the clients think they are dealing with a business and not a single freelancer, they must produce higher quality websites.

    But then again there are people who are actually in the computer industry who are willing to accept anything, even if it makes them look highly unprofessional

    http://shack.co.nz/
    This is a website a friend of mine did while she was doing work experience at his business. Doing upgrades, reinstalls, "virus removals" and such.
    He needed a new website and since she knew i was into webdesign, she suggested initially that I could do it, but instead she changed her mind and decided she might take a try.
    She found it really hard dealing with HTML, she had no idea what CSS was and she spend a few weeks on that specific website trying to learn stuff.
    Need I say she used Frontpage.

    I showed her something I slapped up in an hour, it looked somewhat the same, cleaner and XHTML CSS compliant and more professional.

    If hes willing to have a website of that standard as his website, It scares me as to what level of skill and standards he accepts his work to be when he works on computers.

  7. #132
    SitePoint Member t94xr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reversedelta.com View Post
    I started my business to help out smaller companies: big companies were getting good quality at a high price; small companies were getting graphic designers who know a bit about the web and jumped on the gravy train, or worse still their nephew/uncle/sister in their bedroom with a dodgy copy of dodgy FrontPage.
    And then I get those graphic designers computers at work to recover their files and reinstall windows.

    I've had a few "graphic designers" and "web designers" give me their computers to fix. Photoshop is the only thing these people know how to use and they call themselves Graphic Designers expected to be taken seriously by a computer technician.

    Alot of the cowboys you mentioned are really good graphic designers, they make works of art, but alot of them have no clue how to use a computer, maintain one or even repair it.
    They think since they are graphic designers they're gonna get a cruizy job doing artwork and never caring about their gear.

    I had a person my employer is buying a boat from arrive at work a couple of weeks ago with a computer, AMD K2-450 64MB RAM and a 4GB hard drive. He said he would like Windows XP on it and I laughed, I did the best I could to tell him that his computer was obsolete and junk (aside from being dead) hense basically unrepairable.
    I had my employer today talk to me, he wasn't very happy that this person complain to him that he was told by that his computer was a peice of ****. I told my employer that I didn't mean to put it that bluntly but this guy still wasnt very happy, although my employer did understand that if It was to obsolete for me to fix, it was otherwise i would have fixed it.

    Now Im currently frustrated with idiot computer users who can't handle the fact that their 7yr old computer is obsolete!!

  8. #133
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    PMichaud,

    You've just described every industry in business since the beginning of time. Don't be fooled into thinking the "Internet" is any different because it's not. Educate and sell, sell and educate. Some will, some won't, so what, next! If you aren't good at it, hire someone who is. You have to know your limitations and defer to someone else when the situation presents itself. That's not failure, that's wisdom.

    Bad Attitude + Bad Outlook = Bad Customers

    It's the reap/sew theory. I've seen it more times than I care to admit to and have stopped trying circumvent it. It's amazing what can happen when you stop dicking with a law of nature.

    Peace in the valley and God speed to you.

  9. #134
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    "That's easier said than done if you want a paycheck. I've even pulled Google Analytics to prove my point only to have my employer and/or client say "that's all well and good but I want 'x, y, z, so just do it.' "

    I'd like to hear your opinion for the cure for that scenario. "
    In my mind that is just part of the job. I know for myself that I get a lot more satisfaction out of any project (web or otherwise) when I am allowed to take from conception right through to launch. However, this is not always the case. Sometimes, the people who employ us have a strong idea about what they want, regardless of our recommendations, and they just want us to carry it out for them.

    This is just part of working in any kind of service roll. (As much as I hate it some days myself.)

  10. #135
    SitePoint Enthusiast jonoxer's Avatar
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    Educating the marketplace, one customer at a time

    Quote Originally Posted by reversedelta.com View Post
    Most of the company owners I was presenting to (many very succesful medium sized companies) simply did not know the difference between a good and bad website until it was pointed out.
    ...
    Many of them asked "how are we meant to know this stuff -- what questions should we be asking of our web designers/developers"...its tricky for these guys. We techies take too much for granted.
    Excellent point, reversedelta. I think this is critical. A major point in the OP was the problem of an uneducated marketplace and the resulting lack of ability for good developers to differentiate themselves simply because the market doesn't know what it's looking at. One of the huge problems I faced when I started my webdev business in 1994 was that customers simply didn't have a clue: I had to hold their hand through every little step, beginning with how to find / sign up with an ISP and configure their 28.8 modem. Things are much better now but anyone in webdev knows that just about every customer will ask many of the same questions: how to get into search engines; what is an SSL certificate; why do they have to keep paying for hosting once a site has been created; etc.

    So very early on I took the approach of trying to help educate clients (and prospects) as much as possible. After all, it's in your own self interest: would you rather work with a clueless client or one who actually understands what you're talking about? I'll take the educated client any day. After a while I got so tired of reciting the same answers to all the same questions with every new client that I started writing introductory guides to specific topics such as choosing a domain name so I would have something that I could simply give to a new customer to bring them up to speed quickly. My customers appreciated that I treated them as intelligent people and that I wanted to help them understand what they were doing instead of just blinding them with jargon, and eventually it got to the point where all the guides I'd written ended up compiled into a book designed to help webdev customers understand what they were getting themselves into. The book is now something I can simply hand out to prospective customers and it answers most of their questions right up front, giving both them and me a big head start on their project.

    Educating customers is crucial - even if they're not actually *your* customers. If I quote for a project and they choose to go with someone else, that's fine. I'll still answer their questions and provide advice if they want it. Who knows what will happen down the track? Maybe they'll want another site done for another project, or the designer they chose first will mess up and they'll need you to take over, or the person you provided the quote to changes jobs and remembers how helpful you were while they were with their previous employer. A thousand different things can happen, and the goodwill and relationships you develop over time will pay off down the track in ways you can't possibly predict.

    Yes, in general the marketplace is ignorant. But that's not their fault, and it's not (usually!) because people are stupid. If you treat your clients with respect and show that you want to help them understand what they are doing and get the best possible result for their business, not just sell them a package for a price, they'll respect that and you'll be doing all of us a favor by improving the general level of knowledge in the marketplace.

    Cheers :-)

    Jonathan Oxer

  11. #136
    SitePoint Enthusiast akayani's Avatar
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    cost of hardware

    I think one thing that is going to bit us all on the foot is the perceived association between the price of hardware and the value of software.

    If a computer costs $1K are users going to pay $500 for training or repairs?

    How much is Joe Blogs office who has 3 PC that cost $3K in total going to be willing to pay for a website? $2K That's barely enough to cover the cost involved in converting Joe's poor copy into something suitable for a website.

    The smaller the client the bigger the pain in the a###.

    I think the low cost of hardware is going to haunt professionals throughout the industry at every level.

    Yani

  12. #137
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    I think another point needs making: freelancers are not necessarily the best route to take: from my experience no single person has the requisite skills to build a great website -- its a simple left/right brain thing. Designers (often) build terrible code and developers (often) do awful designs.

    Then you also need a good copywriter, a marketer and someone who knows how to set up the hosting properly (and for instance not use cloaking/redirecting to tie the domain to the server).

    I simply dont think you'll find all these skills in one person. I used to think I could do it all. I'm a very average designer and an average coder. I now concentrate on what I think I'm best at: information architecture and usability , and farm the design out to great designers and the coding to great coders. We have a production line going.

  13. #138
    SitePoint Enthusiast akayani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reversedelta.com View Post
    its a simple left/right brain thing.
    Really I think it's about education verses 'anyone can do this if they have Dreamweaver'.

    Graphic designers do crap websites that they think are FAB simply because they don't have any education of the issues. It's not that you need a mega brain to handle HTML. It's just the ego is unwilling to believe that they don't know enough.

    Where as anyone with true computing experience knows they don't know enough and never will. I know I know next to nothing. But I'm trained to research what I do.

  14. #139
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    Sounds like to me that there is a problem with the clients not actually knowing what it is they need...they will certainly have lots of ideas about what they want, however it may not be what their business needs.

    For instance the principle regarding a web presence is to make money because thats what businesses are in the business of doing. I have experienced this as a music composer. When i had a meeting with a customer its painfully obvious that at first they have no idea what it is they want. How do i know this, because they will play tracks from well know artists and say that they want the mood to be like this or that. However when the process of developing the ideas and composing the finished tracks is finished, low and behold....they bare no real resemblence to what was asked for in the first place.

    So what has happened to change the customer's view on what type of music the product that they are selling needs?....Prototyping, or in my case rough ideas..not too many just enough to give then the opportunity to provide some valuable input. For web developement, create rough interfaces that demonstrate the functionality. These could even be rough sketches on paper. Even if you give them something they don't like or want...it helps them focus on what it is they want. This enables them to actually tell you what it is they actually want and need. With this input it will take me a day to compose 2 - 3 tracks. I have found that I have spent on a 7 day turn-a-round 6 of the 7 days getting to the point where the customer actually knows what it is they want. The last day is spent refining my prototypes (rough ideas) and delivering them to the customer for approval.

    This follows, although not exactly, the principles in DSDM, get the customer involved. Prototype early giving you the chance to identify time waisters (because they will fail to take part in the developement process or show lack of comittment). Comitted customers will be able to see what the website can do for them so they can identify when functionality or other aspects of the site doesn't fit what their business needs and gives you as the developer the opportunity to change things early on, keeping the customer interested and involved.

    This should eventually help you identify when a customer is worth bothering with and if he/she is, you will build a system/site that is fit for purpose and meets the business' needs.

    If you see the customer as the enemy...well "keep your friends close but your enemies closer".

    For those interested in DSDM (btw I'm not involved with the DSDM consortium ) check out DSDM Atern or DSDM 4.2. Heres the link to the site: http://www.dsdm.org/

    Hope my input is valued and i haven't misrepresented anyone here, if I have I apologise.

    Rgds

  15. #140
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    Re: I just realized why this industry sucks

    All points well taken, folks, but try to keep in mind that all industry sucks.

    My mother had a career in marketing and advertising, and she says that roughly 80 percent of her job was educating people about what she did. Isn't most Web development quite a bit like marketing and advertising, after you get past the engineering side of it?

    Add to this the simple fact that this is a very new enterprise and we're still writing the rules as we go (in a few short years I've learned HTML 3.2, HTML 4.1, XHTML 1.0, CSS 1 and 2 ... and HTML 5 is on the horizon ... yes, I could stick with one and do decent work, but each new iteration has had its advantages). And I'm dealing mostly with informational sites, not even getting into e-commerce and database-driven stuff -- yet. Some people are writing and rewriting very good rules that will help us to create robust, scalable, portable, accessible products; others work just as hard to develop crap. I have not yet seen a single WYSIWYG tool that will create a cleanly coded semantically structured accessible website by default, and that's really a pretty basic function we should expect to have by now. Some of the content management solutions are capable of it, if their templates have been well-crafted, but you see that it still comes down to the commitment of the developer. Sadly, many still have the attitude that if it works for them in IE7 on their quad-core RAM-charged megasupercomputer on a T2 line, it's good enough.

    Add to this the advent of "Web 2.0" ... which holds great promise in some ways, if implemented well, just as javascript/AJAX and Flash hold great promise if accessibility issues are kept in mind. The problem is that a lot of people will take all they didn't know about solid structural design and apply the same ignorance to various "mashups" of technologies. The result will be chaos, which goes back to the original point: As a class, and as an industry, we suck. Right now we suck almost as much as Citizens Band radio sucked back in the '70s, when so many people got on there with their 10-4-good-buddy stupidity that the medium was rendered completely useless. The advantage we have in this medium is the URI, which takes people directly to trusted channels and lets them ignore untrusted ones.

    So don't feel too badly about the suckage. As a class, doctors and holy men suck too. But I know a few great ones, and a few is all I need.

    Bandwidth is not an infinite commodity, and people who use more than the job requires should be taxed for it. In fact, that tax is assessed each time a person turns away from your site because you've force-fed them one too many widgets that add to the code burden.

    Our role is to create order out of chaos, which isn't easy. I'm not anti-newbie, but I'd advise newbies not to waste their time if they think any of this is going to be easy money. We're all subject to a sort of technical and economic Darwinism, so those who choose well will reap the rewards.

  16. #141
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.peregrine View Post
    Bandwidth is not an infinite commodity, and people who use more than the job requires should be taxed for it. In fact, that tax is assessed each time a person turns away from your site because you've force-fed them one too many widgets that add to the code burden.
    So, you would have a global government body of some kind monitor and tax? Tax as a punishment? That will give this global body total control over your life in the end. We would finally reach 1984…
    Ulrike
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  17. #142
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    So, you would have a global government body of some kind monitor and tax? Tax as a punishment? That will give this global body total control over your life in the end. We would finally reach 1984…
    Didn't read to the end of the paragraph, did you, Datura? There's medication for ADHD now, y'know ...

    Frankly, stupidity taxes itself. We can develop intelligently, or we can pay the price that anyone pays when somebody else does the job better (and in so doing draws our customers away from us). It's a competitive market, but consumer ignorance factors into it, too. Consumers who don't know what they're buying can be persuaded to buy almost anything in a pretty Web 2.0 wrapper. I see it all the time, and millions of dollars wasted because of it.

  18. #143
    I Love Licorice silver trophybronze trophy Datura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the.peregrine View Post
    There's medication for ADHD now, y'know ...
    Was that necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by the.peregrine View Post
    Consumers who don't know what they're buying can be persuaded to buy almost anything in a pretty Web 2.0 wrapper. I see it all the time, and millions of dollars wasted because of it.
    It is their money to spend. If they are not smart enough to watch out for themselves, so be it. That is how a free market works. Money is never wasted, it just goes into other people's pockets.
    Ulrike
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  19. #144
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    Get used to 'uneducated' clients

    It WOULD be great if clients were savvy enough to tell their web designers what they need, but they ain't. It's just like with personal computers....there are those that understand them and those that don't. Until we reach the stage where every person on the planet has been brought up with a PC as part of their home and daily education, there will always be people who don't understand them. Same for the web. Until everyone on the planet has had the opportunity to grow up with the web easily to hand every day, there will be people who don't know what it can do or what it is about.....consequently web designers will continue to get vague instructions from their clients pretty much forever. I think an email from Sitepoint a few weeks ago mentioned 'picking your clients'.....and that's the way to go.

    This is particularly timely for me.......I am a 'web designer' (and I use the term loosely, but I DO own a registered company, that DOES have a website, and I DO have 2 regular clients(....yes, 2!), who I have had for almost 10 years now. One is a real pain........about a year ago he asked for a redesign of his site (as well as being a pain, he is a REAL tightwad), and I think he expected it to be for free. Anyway, I asked him what he wanted - colour scheme, general theme, any particular graphics he wanted, etc etc. His reply was 'go and check out this website' (a business in the same market, but not a competitor). I checked out the site, found it to be slow, full of useless graphics and kinda cluttered. When I asked him what it was he liked about the site (and so wanted in his site), he just said 'I just like the site'. Hmmmmm.....not much help there.....was it the slow, extraneous graphics he liked ;-)

    I'm in the fortunate position where web design doesn't put the food on my table, it's just a side business.......so after my client's vague instructions, I just let everything slide for 12 months (he can't complain....as my first customer I gave him an introductory rate of 40% of my normal price....he ended up paying that price for 3 years!, and you should have heard the carry on when I tried to put it up to 50% of my normal rate a few years ago..he threatened to go elsewhere, so I called his bluff. He called back a few minutes later when he realised other people's prices were CONSIDERABLY higher than mine!!..but I digress). A month ago I thought I'd try again, so I went through the sire redesign process again. I asked him if he wanted new functionality added - he said No. I asked of he had any preference for colours/theme - he said No. I asked if he had a logo yet that I could use on the site. He said No. I asked if I could put a contact email address on the site.....he said No - just the phone number. I asked him if there was ANYTHING in particular (or even in general!!) that he wanted to specify for his site. Once again he said No. I spent quite a few hours coming up with a new design that I was reasonably happy with, and presented it to him for his approval. His response? "Hmmmmm....I'm OK with it I guess. Go and have a look at this website" (same one as last time)....aaarrrggghhh!

    I can't make the client understand that unless he gives me some specifics we are going to get locked into a cycle of "Here's the latest design....do you like it?"......."No.......do it again".

    But, like I said, I'm only a small business. Web design doesn't put food on my table, but it HAS paid for all my web hosting for 10 years, many years of Microsoft Action Pack subscription, monthly internet access bills, and new PCs for every member of my family every couple of years, so I suppose I will just muddle on trying to keep my 2 customers happy.

  20. #145
    SitePoint Evangelist old_expat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    It is their money to spend. If they are not smart enough to watch out for themselves, so be it. That is how a free market works. Money is never wasted, it just goes into other people's pockets.
    You seem to have precisely defined the sad state of web design. Congratulations!

  21. #146
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    I want to apologize for the length of this post first, but I‘ll let you be the judges. Let me be as impartial as I can and tell a story… I was working as a project manager for a top 10 Joomla design/development/hosting company in Florida, USA. After working for them for several months I got a new client to manage. My first thing was to contact the client and to introduce myself and describe the product, features…etc. I started off with this is a content management system and it gives you the ability to add, delete and interact with your website and its content… and before I could continue a raging screaming voice proceeded to tell me what the “bleep” is going on, we hired you to do everything, and on and on…I don’t want to do a bleeping thing. I told him I will bring up his concerns with my supervisor and get back to him. I immediately contacted my supervisor and proceeded to relay the clients concerns and possible misunderstanding of the initial sales process and contract. I was told when I was hired that if it was a sales problem to kick it back to sales so they can explain what is spelled out in the contract and what they bought. I was stopped dead and told “NO”, tough, you handled it, we have a contract and the client needs to proceed. This happened at the end of the day so I just paused, shut down my computer and went home to contemplate what just transpired. The next day I went in and told my supervisor “To take this job and shove it, I ant working here no more”.
    This was not just because of the story above, but the other 36 clients that have always been pissed off the whole time I worked there. I don’t think I had one happy client.
    I want to add that the designers and developers were top notch; coincidently the sales people were literally EX-USED CAR sales people. But to be fair the one consistent problem that as a designer/developer/sales/PM was CONTENT-CONTENT-CONTENT. Ever since 1995 it has been a problem. I read all 6 threads and this was never mentioned, but is a huge problem. I still have a personal client that has not supplied his content for over 2 years, but still pays me. The reason I have posted this is not to rant, but to say that it can be all sides in this process. I started down this road because of my love and passion for it, and not just for the pay check, it is what still keeps me going. I have respect for all involved, but at times it can drive you crazy.

  22. #147
    Web development Company chrisranjana's Avatar
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    Problems like this could have been prevented atleast some of the time, if a clearly defined "statement of works" document is prepared beforehand for the client's approval.
    Chris, Programmer/Developer,
    www.chrisranjana.com

  23. #148
    SitePoint Member java87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    ^ I pray you did your part and reported it?
    Yeah, I had too..Its difficult to tolerate theft and that too so openly..

    His entries have been deleted..I think there should be a system in almost every contest to filter the stolen entries..because its not always that everyone cares to report..sometimes, even I feel like leaving things like that only..why? just because who cares about clients who want to get designs through contests..at least, I don't care about such clients very much..If they select a stolen design as a winner..its only me who is gonna listen to the contest holder's complaint for myself being rude to fellow designers..even when I try to help the contest holder by trying to save him/her from future copyright infringement..but again, who cares about copyrights.. I have faced this situation 3-4 times and now, I always try to stay away from such conflicts..after all, why should I waste my time searching for stolen entries and telling the contest holder about them..when, in the end, I would be ignored or being labeled as having bad taste about other entrants..

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    Educating the customer is important

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    Was that necessary?
    No, it was unintentionally unkind and I'm sorry for that. I could not believe anyone would see my point as anything but the analogy I intended. I'm sorry my meaning was not more clear in my original post, and certainly no insult was intended!

    Quote Originally Posted by Datura View Post
    It is their money to spend. If they are not smart enough to watch out for themselves, so be it. That is how a free market works. Money is never wasted, it just goes into other people's pockets.
    OK, let's just say that the person who is bleeding thousands of dollars will perceive it as wasted money (when he finally wises up). That money will not keep flowing if people get insufficient return on investment, and we have a professional responsibility to see that they get do.

    Also, I think most of us would agree that we get more job satisfaction out of producing something that benefits our customers, as well as ourselves. It's the best way to keep a customer, too. I'd much rather take the time to educate a customer now than have him call me up later to tell me he thinks my work is a waste of his money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RegionalLink View Post
    I want to apologize for the length of this post first, but I‘ll let you be the judges. Let me be as impartial as I can and tell a story… I was working as a project manager for a top 10 Joomla design/development/hosting company in Florida, USA. After working for them for several months I got a new client to manage. My first thing was to contact the client and to introduce myself and describe the product, features…etc. I started off with this is a content management system and it gives you the ability to add, delete and interact with your website and its content… and before I could continue a raging screaming voice proceeded to tell me what the “bleep” is going on, we hired you to do everything, and on and on…I don’t want to do a bleeping thing. I told him I will bring up his concerns with my supervisor and get back to him. I immediately contacted my supervisor and proceeded to relay the clients concerns and possible misunderstanding of the initial sales process and contract. I was told when I was hired that if it was a sales problem to kick it back to sales so they can explain what is spelled out in the contract and what they bought. I was stopped dead and told “NO”, tough, you handled it, we have a contract and the client needs to proceed. This happened at the end of the day so I just paused, shut down my computer and went home to contemplate what just transpired. The next day I went in and told my supervisor “To take this job and shove it, I ant working here no more”.
    This was not just because of the story above, but the other 36 clients that have always been pissed off the whole time I worked there. I don’t think I had one happy client.
    I want to add that the designers and developers were top notch; coincidently the sales people were literally EX-USED CAR sales people. But to be fair the one consistent problem that as a designer/developer/sales/PM was CONTENT-CONTENT-CONTENT. Ever since 1995 it has been a problem. I read all 6 threads and this was never mentioned, but is a huge problem. I still have a personal client that has not supplied his content for over 2 years, but still pays me. The reason I have posted this is not to rant, but to say that it can be all sides in this process. I started down this road because of my love and passion for it, and not just for the pay check, it is what still keeps me going. I have respect for all involved, but at times it can drive you crazy.
    The underlying theme is a problem of communication, agreed requirements, timeboxed deadlines, reviews and co-operation. If the customer isn't co-operative but wants to keep paying you then take the money as long as it was agreed that it is the customers responsibility to provide the content (in black and white), otherwise your in a very grey area.


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