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  1. #101
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranquilpenguin View Post
    Wow... a guy couldn't be more off base...

    1st off, you can never blame the consumer for taking the market the wrong way: they ARE the market by definition.

    Second, Photoshop, while being a flagship product, is not the only "right" way to do business as you imply. GIMP is a viable solution for web graphic design. There is NO disputing that.

    I will keep this long, so let me end here, on my very first post on sitepoint.com:

    What has ruined the industry is M$. They constantly put out products the DON'T ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS. Rather than taking a stand, we write patched code and hacked CSS code to make their JUNK work. Why can't the industry do something noble, like stand on principles? Make compliant sites and not hack for M$? Let the consumer keep hearing this phrase: "IE is not w3c compliant". Maybe M$ will either fix the issue or the consumer will start using compliant browsers.

    There is the real issue: non-compliance. It is the level of complexity that IE bring to the design level that people are cashing in on.

    Ever do w3c compliance on frontpage code?

    Out.
    Well, I was wondering when someone would come in and either steer the debate towards 'Microsoft is evil' or 'Mac vs. PC'. It is ridiculous and boring to bring the Microsoft standards rant into this debate, and to say that non-compliance of standards is a more relevant point than the many points made above simply suggests that you aren't really participating in the discussion in a thoughtful manner and instead are just throwing in your rant because you can.

    This thread wasn't exactly going anywhere but at least people were making points that were on topic and reflected legitimate perspectives on the topic (many of which I didn't agree with, but that's how forums go). So much for that.

    Ironically, your post is the kind of thing that makes the industry weaker.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. — Socrates

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  2. #102
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    what do microsoft have to do with this thread?

    first post and you started trolling! welcome to sitepoint tranquilpenguin


    Quote Originally Posted by tranquilpenguin View Post

    What has ruined the industry is M$. They constantly put out products the DON'T ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS. Rather than taking a stand, we write patched code and hacked CSS code to make their JUNK work. Why can't the industry do something noble, like stand on principles? Make compliant sites and not hack for M$? Let the consumer keep hearing this phrase: "IE is not w3c compliant". Maybe M$ will either fix the issue or the consumer will start using compliant browsers.

    There is the real issue: non-compliance. It is the level of complexity that IE bring to the design level that people are cashing in on.

    Ever do w3c compliance on frontpage code?

    Out.

    like XMLHttpRequest 10 years ago which is still not standardized by w3c? that is responsible for current web 2.0 renaissance and providing some of us with alot of work

  3. #103
    SitePoint Enthusiast forumGuru's Avatar
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    In my opinion the industry is getting stronger; not weaker. Technology is improving and the smart/skilled people are shining through sooner or later. You have to weed through a lot to get to the good stuff but there is so much of it and if you're organized from a consumer standpoint or efficient from a producer standpoint you've got to love what's going on and be excited about the direction things are taking. These are great times, not bad times.
    NumaNuma.com - Show us your funny side.

  4. #104
    SitePoint Enthusiast Jenny McDermott's Avatar
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    Please, please, no certifications!

    "Certification" in what? Site design? Get a 2-year or 4-year graphics art degree. Web services? Gotta have at least a basic understanding of programming principles, so you need voc tech or college courses. "Certification" is just another word for "professional birth control." And all it will accomplish is to make it harder for talented and industrious people with all types of backgrounds to make it in Web design.

    I don't think the Web design industry sucks, I think it's just getting started. Please don't strangle it at birth by imposing some dubious "gatekeeper" mentality on it.
    "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating
    the taste of the American public." -- H.L. Mencken

  5. #105
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    Actually, even though the quality might lack, the more there are, the more options as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny McDermott View Post
    "Certification" in what? Site design? Get a 2-year or 4-year graphics art degree. Web services? Gotta have at least a basic understanding of programming principles, so you need voc tech or college courses. "Certification" is just another word for "professional birth control." And all it will accomplish is to make it harder for talented and industrious people with all types of backgrounds to make it in Web design.

    I don't think the Web design industry sucks, I think it's just getting started. Please don't strangle it at birth by imposing some dubious "gatekeeper" mentality on it.
    I fully agree. I'm not certified, but have self-taught most of my practices and people like what I make. I have fun making what I make, and keep learning or self improvement. I've just (within the last two years) gotten out of the newbie stages of design and now design the standard quality of, I guess, "appropriate designing". I'm soon to enter the industry fully when I open up my own web design business within this year, and yet I don't have certifications or so.

    Hell, I design better than one who does, of which works here locally.

  6. #106
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    Crikey, lots of thoughts and opinions.

    I think I'll keep this short, and I'll try to relate as much as I can based on my experience (I've worked in the UK, for UK companies, and currently in South East Asia, for my own company, so I think I can cover most of the bases from both ends of the spectrum with some relevance).

    Certifications are BS, frankly.
    I recently checked out a web design school locally, and tried out the first part of their IT course (3rd part was a J2EE course, which I was looking into).

    In 4 months (at a 6 hour a week schedule!) I was a "certified web design and developer, with strong knowledge in Flash, HTML, JavaScript, and CSS", I couldn't believe it! I nearly laughed at the face of the lady handing me that piece of paper - I had studied these things for the past 3-4 years, and I would never in my wildest dreams imagine to have a "strong knowledge" in all of them in less than 4 months total. Needless to say, my classmates' works looked like something an elementary student threw up. And yes, they were all "certified" as well.

    Keep in mind that this isn't some run-of-the-mill school. This was the only school authorized and certified by Microsoft and Oracle over here! Serious!

    Obviously, I never bothered signing up for their J2EE track. What BS.

    This isn't an isolated 3rd world country problem either. There is a remote work, US-based website (which I shall not mention here) which gives providers "tests" to see how good they are.

    Apparently according to their tests, theoretically speaking, I would be a crap designer because I haven't memorized all the keyboard shortcuts in Photoshop, or because I can never seem to remember that the pattern creation option is under the edit category in the menu.

    Now, what this test fails to note is that I can paint a pretty darn realistic underwater scene from scratch, using nothing but brushes and a few photographs for color resources.

    So... according to their "tests", the chap who scored number 1 and knows every action shortcut in Photoshop is FAR better than a digital painter who can accurately paint a panoramic scene of Paris?

    Bovine ordure I say!

    It's not us, it's them. - Elitism is not going to help this industry grow. Why should we create boundaries for those genius 16 year olds just because they can't/couldn't take their certifications for reason or another? Why kill that? We might just end up discouraging the next Philippe Starck or the next Jonathan Harris.

    If anything, our industry needs to educate the market. We need something akin to the whole "Got Milk?" or PETA campaigns. Why are people more aware of global warming and animal abuses and healthy foods? It's because those industries banded together and educated the masses. THAT is what needs to be done. Why should we kill ourselves by creating hierarchies? We'll simply end up in a cesspool of political BS, full of "it's who you know, not what you know" social poison.

    We've moved past that. Why go back to it?
    Last edited by XLCowBoy; Jan 9, 2008 at 23:46.

  7. #107
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    Some Good Points Raised

    I really appreciate the time and thought that went into this topic. I agree that the market is saturated to the point of annoyance with people that buy a web editor and splash a few pics here and there. However, in any business involving the provision of a service, that will be evident. Switching topics, I hate seeing clients that end up getting taken advantage of by the above-mentioned people, however, I also love the appreciation I receive when I am able to help them out and provide them with a site that they can be proud of. Since I do this as a side job, i can do it for a reasonable price where both sides are content.

  8. #108
    SitePoint Member t94xr's Avatar
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    I know im pretty late in the game to post this, but anyway.

    I left webdesign purely based on the fact that my clients were total assholes!!

    People want websites but are unwilling to pay for the quality and time and the talent to put them together... From my own experience unless you have mastered Photoshop, XHTML CSS, Javascript AND PHP MySQL together, it makes life very hard for people to get started and start a portfolio

    I agree that the market is flooded with people who dont have a clue what XHTML is, use dreamweaver because apparently its the best and them using it makes them better...

    Anyway, clients can be total assholes!!

    1. I had a client who wanted a website, i had to sign a confidentiality agreement? ok i signed it, He sent me a website under a name. I designed a website with tags and the entire website being based around that specific domain name. a few days later i send him a link to the latest update and he comes back with the actual real name!!!
    I get angry and tell him that building a new website for your domain, isn't the most confidential thing to ever happen? he said he wanted confidentiality because he didnt want others knowing they were building a new website, i asked him, 'so what happens when you've got a new website up there?'
    He never emailed me back, i deleted the website and 3months later he had a new website.

    2. Clients love removing "Designed by Whoever" links!!
    they love it!! They dont want anything to do with you!! Even though they agreed in the first place to have your name and your link there so you can claim that you did that website, inorder for you to use that as a peice of your portfolio. no...
    They LOVE asknig you to remove that link, tiny link, barely even seen.

    3. They refuse to pay for work.
    Clients love refusing for work you've done!!
    They love just taking your time, saying your going to get paid and then ripping you off.

    4. Cheapest work possible.
    Clients love paying for these websites, expecting us to get paid $50-100 dollars!
    I Put near 4hrs a day 2wks of work into a website and they said they'll agree on a price when they see the "Quality" of the website. It was a damn good website aswell!
    They refused to pay me more than $150.00 - they said they'll probably give me more just to say thanks and i gave them my bank details, only $150 arrived in my account.

    5. While i was finding work, people i know who are in the industry but who know far less and do a poor quality job get more work than I was trying to find.

    There was this one woman in Taupo where I live, she used Dreamweaver and she did poor (child like style) websites, I offered to help her upskill (i know i was being a bit of an ******* but i was serious) and she abused me in this big email and said i'll never work in this town again.
    If shes able to find work in this town with her skills, I wouldn't want to do webdesign in this town!!

    After spending 3yrs learning HTML -> CSS -> XHTML and moved to 100% CSS based design, XHTML & CSS Compliant !!
    I gave up!!! I couldnt find any work, the work i did get the clients were total assholes and cheap and dodgy.

    I left and moved into other areas of computers, such as networking, wifi and vista and upskilling myself in hardware knowledge.

    THANK****INGGOD

  9. #109
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    @t94xr - I don't mean to sound like a prat, but... ever tried showing them the source code?

    I had clients like yours before as well: "we thought all you did was move the stuff around" like some drag and drop word program. I just smiled. I said "no, and if it was that easy, I would be bored and be doing something else".

    Although admittedly, there are some clients that simply don't have a clue, but those sort of people exist in every industry you're in.

  10. #110
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    t94xr - the client's you have been involved with are lemons! They deserve (and should receive) nothing more than a standard template with logo inserted and colors changed. This would take no more than an hour, leaving them free to remove any backlink and basically do whatever they want with it. No offence intended, but I think (much like any business undertaking) you need to know what your client's want and what you are prepared to do for them. This is where sound business planning come in.

    I would encourage others to learn from this experience. Work out what you require in terms of your standard hourly rate. If you decide that, given your skill level, geographic location, and the general economic climate surrounding you, an hourly charge out rate of $150 is appropriate, stick to it!!!!

    Quote work properly. This is crucial. If some lemon comes along wanting a $150 website, I personally don't see why any decent web designer should be above it (particularly those starting out or with time to spare while waiting for better work). But, in delivering it, you shouldn't be spending any more time than is required to achieve your hourly charge out rate. Give them an hour of your time. Change colors, insert logo, etc....... but that's it. A site like this doesn't even have to go in your portfolio. If you're worried about your brand / reputation (as you rightly should be given that most of you will be seeking higher paid work from reputable clients) set up two companies - one company that delivers high-end work that you're proud of, and another for delivering work for lemons and cheapskates, or those that do not ascribe value to an acceptable online presence.

    At least that way, you're more likely to cover your costs, and stay open for business sufficiently long enough to gain the reputation your work deserves.

    Hang in there t94xr! You Kiwi's are a resilient (and talented) lot! Kia kaha bro!

    Much respect, Hairybob

  11. #111
    Kiwi Fr00t jylyn's Avatar
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    Yep, us kiwis are definitely a do-it-yourself bunch, and the duct tape and no.8 fencing wire mentality works just as well on the internet as anywhere else!
    Perhaps Taupo isn't the best place to be trying to sell professional web design...

  12. #112
    SitePoint Enthusiast Jenny McDermott's Avatar
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    to t94xr and those who replied...

    t94xr, your frustration is understandable, but I think you could probably find happiness partnering with someone who knows how to market and sell while you do quality Web design work. Before I got into Web design (in 1996) I was in sales. One very important thing I learned is to qualify people as prospects; interview them carefully to get a read on whether they would be customers you'd want to have. The best sales rep I ever knew would walk away from anyone who sounded like the customers you described, without a backward glance. He knew there were plenty of fair-minded and honest people out there just waiting for him to come sell them something.

    You're a designer, not a salesman, so find someone who can sell but may or may not have a lick of talent for design. Or if you're happy in the new niche you've created for yourself, that's cool too.
    "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating
    the taste of the American public." -- H.L. Mencken

  13. #113
    SitePoint Member t94xr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jylyn View Post
    Yep, us kiwis are definitely a do-it-yourself bunch, and the duct tape and no.8 fencing wire mentality works just as well on the internet as anywhere else!
    Perhaps Taupo isn't the best place to be trying to sell professional web design...
    Yep Taupo isn't the best but what she was doing isn't up to the level of quality of what I see produced for the Netguide Web Challenge!!

    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    @t94xr - I don't mean to sound like a prat, but... ever tried showing them the source code?
    I dont mean to sound like a prat, but customers dont care about code, they care about the way they website looks.
    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    I had clients like yours before as well: "we thought all you did was move the stuff around" like some drag and drop word program. I just smiled. I said "no, and if it was that easy, I would be bored and be doing something else".
    Yeah I've had other people do that when I've designed standard xhml structures and designed different CSS sheets for different styles and designs.

    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    Although admittedly, there are some clients that simply don't have a clue, but those sort of people exist in every industry you're in.
    Yeah you would be suprised.

    This is the woman i was talking about.
    Taupo Web Designs

    Quote Originally Posted by hairybob View Post
    t94xr - the client's you have been involved with are lemons!
    They deserve (and should receive) nothing more than a standard template with logo inserted and colors changed. This would take no more than an hour, leaving them free to remove any backlink and basically do whatever they want with it. No offence intended, but I think (much like any business undertaking) you need to know what your client's want and what you are prepared to do for them. This is where sound business planning come in.
    Yeah I know but Im a no mess kind of guy...

    Quote Originally Posted by hairybob View Post
    Hang in there t94xr! You Kiwi's are a resilient (and talented) lot! Kia kaha bro!
    Left the game man, dont do much webdesign now, mostly on my own websites...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny McDermott View Post
    t94xr, your frustration is understandable, but I think you could probably find happiness partnering with someone who knows how to market and sell while you do quality Web design work. Before I got into Web design (in 1996) I was in sales.
    Yeah ofcourse I was frustated. Every idiot designer who couldnt code HTML with a few years training was getting more work than me!!

    But then again I'm not totally above myself, Keri Henare is a good friend of mine lol

  14. #114
    SitePoint Wizard wheeler's Avatar
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    t94xr, I don't think you'll get anywhere by blaming everyone and everything but yourself for your business closing... for one, you put yourself in the situation where you didn't have an agreement (*cough* commitment) from the client about how much you would charge. It's like going into the milkbar and offering them a price for some milk - of course your gunna short change them.

    People in all industries run into some bad apples from time to time, but you gotta learn to deal with them and you dictate the terms, not the other way round. If they don't like that, then politely decline to work with them and seek out some decent clients.
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  15. #115
    SitePoint Member t94xr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeler View Post
    t94xr, I don't think you'll get anywhere by blaming everyone and everything but yourself for your business closing... for one, you put yourself in the situation where you didn't have an agreement (*cough* commitment) from the client about how much you would charge. It's like going into the milkbar and offering them a price for some milk - of course your gunna short change them.
    Umm, I had a business? I was just freelancing...
    Trying to get some work to build my portfolio, sure different people get different clients and its random with what they get but I don't like working in that kind of working enviroment...

  16. #116
    SitePoint Zealot franglix's Avatar
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    I liked the analogy with car mechanics, I have always seen a website as a vehicle taken on for the business behind it.

    It is thus quite ironic/paradoxical (I once OD-ed on Alanis Morissette) that yesterday I dumped a web site design client who is actually a car mechanic, but wanted to cash in on the web in another business venture.

    I thought it would just be too crass to use the analogy, and point out him that he probably doesn't accept a situation that he has to voluntarily maintain a client's car indefinitely just because he got it functioning and back on the road and gave it a sparkling new custom paint job. Hrrmmphh!
    Last edited by franglix; Jan 11, 2008 at 06:27. Reason: typo oops!

  17. #117
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    Great comment, life is short and being happy doing what you enjoy today is the key.

  18. #118
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Maybe 99% of the websites online are poorly designed/programmed (ugly designs, bad site structure and navigation, non-user friendly, buggy, security holes, etc.), however this is a free market and the consumers have the right to choose what they want or feel it will work for them. If the web designer/developer didn’t do the job according to the contract with the customer, then the customer has the right to request fixing of the design/site problems or requesting his money back…

  19. #119
    SitePoint Member myip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asp-hosting.ca View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]Maybe 99% of the websites online are poorly designed/programmed (ugly designs, bad site structure and navigation, non-user friendly, buggy, security holes, etc.)FONT]
    I don't think it is 99% "Yet".
    I am learning PHP in Arabic

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMichaud View Post
    The state of the "web design" and to a lesser extent the web development industry has been a source of frustration to me for many years.

    It always vexed me that the success stories were rarely related to the quality of output or anything like that, but more often were narratives of a system that someone developed by which he could churn large volumes of passable product, or enabled others to do the same (LogoWorks, for example).

    Certainly, the low barrier to entry created and exacerbated by desktop publishing and hacked copies of photoshop have contributed to the market saturation by the writhing tumult of mediocre (and worse) service providers. But that's not the whole picture.

    Wide availability is only half of the equation: the other is our lemon market. Basically, people consuming our service cannot distinguish quality, and therefore low quality offerings demand prices equal to high quality offerings, all things being equal. That means that our highly trained skills have been commoditized by market ignorance.

    Ours is worse than normal lemon industries, I'm afraid. In our case the bulk of crap isn't peddled by unscrupulous vendors looking for a quick buck and a schill to scam it from -- the crap is provided by well-meaning amateurs who believe the hype. The market is so rife with unprofessionalism, that even those within it take years to sort the wheat from the chaffe.

    Most people who suck don't realize they suck, and most people buying sucky service don't realize they're getting sucky service!

    The solution on a large scale is education, but it's not realistic until there is a market force that tends to push consumers to become educated. If a customer could drive a logo or an e-commerce system 75 miles per hour with darling, little Cindy-Lou strapped in the back, you can bet they'd want to make sure the logo has decent brakes.

    The fact is that the risk is just as real, if not as immediately life threatening: skimping on marketing or essential software systems is a great way to doom a start up. You might lose your life savings, or you might have to explain to little Cindy-Lou why Santa isn't coming this year -- you might just have a venture that fizzles quietly.

    That fizzle is a problem, because when a venture fizzles it normally isn't spectacular like Enron -- it's normally an almost imperceptible, little squeak that goes something like: "I just decided it was time to move on to other things," or "the market was too cold, I got in too late, oh well." It's never: "I started with a half-baked idea, I didn't take the time to research the market, I didn't invest what I should have in infrastructure or marketing, and therefore I failed to make this venture a success." We find it almost impossible to attribute failure directly to our decisions and actions.

    So here is where the dark synergy of ignorance and attribution bias forms the frothy, putrecent brew of market failure: Jimmy, on the same day, buys a car and a website, both for $1,000, both from Honest Bob's House of Used Cars and Web Design. Both products are delivered, and off Jim goes. In a month, the saw dust that kept Jim's junky car running finally lodged itself hopelessly in the gears of the dying vehicle, and the car simply stops moving forever. Jim cannot travel any further -- the car's failure is clear, and Bob's trickery is revealed. The market or the courts or both will take care of Bob's shady car business.

    Jim's web site, however, has also failed insidiously. It drives the few visitors who find it into the hills, never to return. The one person who tried to get the shopping cart checkout to work, never got the product, but thanks to faulty coding, his identity is now for sale in a Nigerian black market. In a few months Jim will grow tired of the "slow market," and quietly stop paying his monthly hosting bill, and the site will make that tiny little squeak I mentioned before: "Market's slow, the internet isn't all it's cracked up to be."

    That's why it behooves all of us to look at ourselves long and hard when we fail, or when our clients fail. It wasn't the bear market. It's not "just time." Statistically speaking, this probably applies to you, dear reader:

    You suck at web design. You are not qualified to design web applications. Your business idea will fail because you didn't think it through, and you hired the cheapest guy from a country you can't point out on a map to implement it. So you have a choice: you can cry about it and crawl under a rock, or you can stand up and do the hard work of educating yourself so you can stop taking half-assed stabs in the dark at the riches and glory that you claim to want but have taken to the path of least resistance to get to.

    Here's what you need to do: pick your field of interest, and test your metal against the best. Put your design work in front of a harsh critique; you could apply for a job at a good studio with your current portfolio just to see what they say. Put your code up for review on a geek mailing list or try to apply for a job somewhere that they only hire super hackers; again, just to see what they say. Pitch your business idea to a major venture capital firm.

    This experience will be humiliating, enlightening, and ultimately invaluable. It only takes a moment to open your eyes.
    Hey there

    I feel your frustration. Although I don't design sites per se, (coding) I have had 9 sites built for me over the last 5 years. One thing I learned right away is that sites take on a dated look pretty quickly. I learned some things the hard way too....that some people charge 2 grand for a slide show whereas the next guy charges 3 hundred to do the same work...only better. One thing I notice is that most guys claim to do flash when the reality is most guys can do flash poorly. Another thought...you write about "failure". There is no such thing...theres only results...some good, some not so good.

    I'm getting things down pretty good though. My most recent site I had built involved one face to face meeting and 287 emails to the designer with 156 responses back.

    Regards
    Rick
    www.vancouversbestpainters.com
    www.604painters.com

  21. #121
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranquilpenguin View Post
    Wow... a guy couldn't be more off base...

    1st off, you can never blame the consumer for taking the market the wrong way: they ARE the market by definition.

    Second, Photoshop, while being a flagship product, is not the only "right" way to do business as you imply. GIMP is a viable solution for web graphic design. There is NO disputing that.

    I will keep this long, so let me end here, on my very first post on sitepoint.com:

    What has ruined the industry is M$. They constantly put out products the DON'T ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS. Rather than taking a stand, we write patched code and hacked CSS code to make their JUNK work. Why can't the industry do something noble, like stand on principles? Make compliant sites and not hack for M$? Let the consumer keep hearing this phrase: "IE is not w3c compliant". Maybe M$ will either fix the issue or the consumer will start using compliant browsers.

    There is the real issue: non-compliance. It is the level of complexity that IE bring to the design level that people are cashing in on.

    Ever do w3c compliance on frontpage code?

    Out.
    IE8 fixes most of these problems (manual coding out end) and passes the acid test. MS is trying to fix there products (See there new range) it's not perfect, but it's going in the right direction.

    Most webmasters never use frontpage/MS products to make a website (I think), It's a notepad [like] product or a WYSIWYG editor, with a hint of a product to make some nice images.
    My Blog/Site: Full On Design

  22. #122
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    The best people are doing it for themselves. Not for clients, not for bosses, but
    themselves.

  23. #123
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    Yep wordpressQuick - thats interesting

  24. #124
    SitePoint Member java87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMichaud View Post
    The state of the "web design" and to a lesser extent the web development industry has been a source of frustration to me for many years.

    It always vexed me that the success stories were rarely related to the quality of output or anything like that, but more often were narratives of a system that someone developed by which he could churn large volumes of passable product, or enabled others to do the same (LogoWorks, for example).

    Certainly, the low barrier to entry created and exacerbated by desktop publishing and hacked copies of photoshop have contributed to the market saturation by the writhing tumult of mediocre (and worse) service providers. But that's not the whole picture.

    Wide availability is only half of the equation: the other is our lemon market. Basically, people consuming our service cannot distinguish quality, and therefore low quality offerings demand prices equal to high quality offerings, all things being equal. That means that our highly trained skills have been commoditized by market ignorance.

    Ours is worse than normal lemon industries, I'm afraid. In our case the bulk of crap isn't peddled by unscrupulous vendors looking for a quick buck and a schill to scam it from -- the crap is provided by well-meaning amateurs who believe the hype. The market is so rife with unprofessionalism, that even those within it take years to sort the wheat from the chaffe.

    Most people who suck don't realize they suck, and most people buying sucky service don't realize they're getting sucky service!

    The solution on a large scale is education, but it's not realistic until there is a market force that tends to push consumers to become educated. If a customer could drive a logo or an e-commerce system 75 miles per hour with darling, little Cindy-Lou strapped in the back, you can.........
    I am also going through the same phase as you have described for your self. Due to pirated versions of photoshop almost every free kid is playing around with it. Its not at all bad in my view, but the bad thing comes, when its about designing and that too original. I have seen the designing contests trend on almost every site and every forum and seriously speaking out of 100 contests which are won by the designers, 70% of them contain copyrighted images and other things, which are modified in some way or the other, just to make them slightly "different" from the original and then labeling them as "unique" creations. Getting inspired from some designs is another thing..but using copyrighted material and then selling it is an illegal offense, which somehow these kids are ignoring or taking lightly. Most of the contest holders are not related to web-designing industry at all and sometimes they are totally new to web too. When such poor clients choose/like stolen designs and later on get trapped in copyright infringement or repent on purchasing a 20 cents design in $$$, they get a bad impression about the whole web designing industry, including those who are professional designers and offer 100% unique content. Speaking against such entrants is not easy, as they being smart kids know how to handle such situations with their tricky excuses..!

    Have a look at this entry and see the same in istock..It really maddens me up, when courage is shown while submitting stolen entries..

    Copyrighted images as Contest entries from a budding designer.


    Do read the comment by the entrant on the entry which has got maximum rating. He/she is boldly saying if he wins he will be submitting other similar entries too...lol
    All the stolen entries from that very member for that contest:
    God save the world!
    Last edited by java87; Jan 13, 2008 at 07:08.

  25. #125
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    ^ I pray you did your part and reported it?


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