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  1. #76
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    I'm a writer by trade. I've been doing art, in one form or another, since childhood. In the last five years I've been learning web design, and general graphics. My first couple of regular jobs taught me what I did not want to do for a living. Please understand, I'm not trying to sound condescending in any way, when I say this. But, I think if I had not spent time doing those jobs. I would never of had the desire, or fortitude to write; much less draw, or paint.

    No matter what field of creativity you choose. Make sure you understand the price of becoming a success. And, decide what success may mean to you. Then remember that A lot of the time no one will get what you are doing. I've had manuscripts returned for reasons that made no sense at all to me. One portrait I did in pastel, I had to revise seven times. Only to have the client stiff me on it in the end. oh, he got the portrait by the way, for free. And in this digital medium, I expected much worse before even trying it.

    Creativity as a career is more work than a regular job. I like to think of it as a business. A business that sells, manufactures, and distributes pieces of myself. And just as some may not like this companies version; they may not like my version either. You become an artist because you must create. and not the other way around. On the good side; the last manuscript i sent came back with a list of things to change from the publisher. I changed nothing, sent it back, and now I just got an offer from the same publisher. The reason for this change was simple: a different editor looked it over. Keep going, if you feel this is what you were meant to do. But if you think writing a best seller or designing web sites, would be a fast track to easy street, you are mistaken. Nothing i have ever done has been more work than writing.

  2. #77
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    I only read the OP's first post but here is IMO. Why do you care about "hack"? If you are truly great at what you are doing then you will get pay more because of it. People who seek "cheap labor" will not going to ask you and they might even jerk you around. How's it any difference than retail software? People who want to steal music, movie or software will do so because that's what they set out to do and nothing you can do to change their mindset.

    now if you are as good as you sound then why is this bugging you? People who want good quality work will pay for it. There were a lot of webmail before Gmail and yet Gmail beat all with its design. 37singals beat out other with their RoR based simple apps and there are more example out on the web. beside why do you want cheapo customers? they are usually more pain in the *** to deal with.

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard wheeler's Avatar
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    who cares whether we are in a "lemon market" - it doesn't prevent us getting new clients in the door, nor does it sour the ever-growing hunger people have to utilize the internet in their lives. The marketplace will sort itself out all in good time - it might seem like child's play on these forums but i'm sure I wasn't the only one explaining what Facebook is around the christmas table last year.

    The only drawback with international accreditation is we (or at least I) have done the learning on my own and I don't want to spend time and money having it repeated to me. In any case our portfolio speaks for itself anywhere in the world.
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  4. #79
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    I do agree with your views....

    I do agree with what "Norrad" wrote above, that.....

    The industry is full of talented people but these people deserve to be rewarded for their efforts.

  5. #80
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    After all said and done. what is the way forward.

  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oluwasogo View Post
    After all said and done. what is the way forward.
    As a business: work smarter not harder.
    As an industry: let the chips fall where they may - the internet is far too diverse for us to expect we can move forward as a group.
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  7. #82
    SitePoint Evangelist Tapan's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I have been developing custom sites now for sometime and I would like to say that according to my experience my company also is not looking for quality, for eg. they don't care if there's a security issue coming up due to a feature they want in the product which is not a standard...they just want the things to be get done as quickly as possible according to client's specification and move on to the next.

    This leds me to develope poor quality stuff yet i think i am capable of developing good stuff but deadlines, less understanding on customers and sales people lets me go down to their low level and built stuff like that.

    So in real: If you can't beat them, then Join Them.

    I am now doing this and I think I am doing good than others.

    Thanks.

  8. #83
    SitePoint Addict FizixRichard's Avatar
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    I agree with this post to an extent. But I don't think the problem is so much the saturation of bad freelancers and studios but more education.

    I think its more about the client knowing the difference between good and bad and what these things really mean and I don't think it helps when we have a paranoid state of mind....

    "dont discuss prices as it can open a barrel of fish for price fixing, which is bad for the consumer".

    I disagree with that, a lot. I think it HELPS the consumer as they then know roughtly what they are getting into.


    Take your average company or individual, using the car example you gave.

    You buy a car for $1,000 bucks you KNOW it will be crap.

    People know that $1,000 is cheap for a car because they know how much other cars cost. They don't have that luxury with web design and development and even less with interactive advertising and breakthrough tech.


    Talk to your average individual or company and they don't have a clue what the prices for web design are, other than I know someone who will do it for x.

    Would you let a builder create an extension for your home for $2,000?

    NO, it will fall down on top of you. We know that because we have a source of information thats readilly available to tell us what is reasonable and what isn't.


    The problem is, with such an open market and a great deal of consumer ignorance, you get cowboys. Because if there is scope for fooling an ignorant client who knows no better then that type of person will come.


    I don't think the majority of the dross is coming from designers and developers who think they are great, I think its coming from a couple of sources:

    1. Cowboys who know they can charge a premium for a minimum workload
    2. Low cost designers & developers who can sell to a broad market, due to ignorance of the market
    3. Templates and a complete confusion between template & original design


    To use an example I'm sure we have all heard. I recently spoke to a client who wanted a full flash site designing and producing. I gave my estimate and they said I was too expensive.

    They went ahead to compare my price to the price of a template and the competition forum on Sitepoint.

    I tried to educate the client a bit on using templates and competition forums, I'm sure it fell on deaf ears.


    Does this situation frustrate me?

    Occasionally, I am making money through good clients and this is not a common event.

    What does annoy me is when a client turns around and tries to make out that I am overcharing because billy bobs design shack will rake out a full website for $200 and then burries their head in the sand at the reality that they are getting a template thats been sold to 500 other companies, not a unique design, made just for you.


    Why does this happen, well there is no price discussion so people take their info from template monster and the competition forum and take that as a guage which is most certainly isn't.

    So, the bottom lines:

    Is there a problem in the industry
    Yes, too many designers are selling templates and producing shoddy work.
    Yes, too many clients are blissfully unaware that a couple of hundered bucks is going to be a waste of effort.
    No, its not the end of the industry

    No, I'm not the best out there and don't claim to be. But I am honest, genuine and have happy customers whos endeavours DO succeed. And in that light I must be doing something right.

    THAT in itself goes a long way and leads to the good work. If you cannot make a decent living in this industry, could it be more that you are in the dross crowd or alternatively that you don't know enough about business or what matters to customers in the real world?


    One thing I learn't really quickly is, 99.9% of clients will be happier if you spend 5 hours making the site just that bit better then spending those 5 hours ensuring you have a perfect W3C validation. As long as the site works across browsers and is accessible then a validation check means jack in the real world.

    I think that is also part of the problem, designers and developers who are so hung up on standards and proving themselves to other developers that they forget what matters to the client, and what matters to the client AND their customers is usually a million miles from what we think matters in the internet world.
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  9. #84
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    I think it's worth pointing out two things.

    1) I have a problem with sucky design because I want the whole world to be better on a sort of quasi-religious level, and I think good design could lead to that. I think if people learned to appreciate quality, and experienced the difference good quality design can make, then this wouldn't be a problem. There are good market examples of this like iPod (good design) versus Zune (bad design), but that's the exception: the market can't efficiently produce good design -- it takes passion, and education, and maybe acculturation. Point: my concern isn't for my next paycheck, it's a broader concern.

    2) To the people saying: "Hey if people want ****, I'll deliver ****," (talking to you Tapan), I have a problem with that. I think that violates our professional ethics. I also think selling services that one isn't qualified to perform is unethical... they are related, but but not the same.

    I understand the dilemma of wanting to produce sites but not having a portfolio. I suggest you produce your OWN sites. Lots of them. I have lost count of number of sites I've made -- many of them fall under my own definition of suckitude, trust me. I'm talking about hundreds, maybe thousands, from start to finish. It will take you years. You'll learn a lot.

    As for delivering services when you're under-qualified, or producing them in a way you know to be suboptimal, I think it's acceptable to be honest with your clients.

    At my job I am asked to do a lot of things I don't agree with (technical stuff, not ethical). When that happens I don't just nod and produce ****. I explain why an approach probably isn't the best way, and I describe possible alternatives. Sometimes I'm pushed to do what I think is the wrong thing, but I've made it clear that I think it's wrong. That moves the ethical responsibility up the chain, because I've told the people I'm responsible to that they are treading dangerously, and that's my minimum obligation.

    Similarly, if you're just starting out and you insist on getting real, live clients, then you need to be honest with them -- you need to explain that you're a cut rate supplier in this industry, and the reason is that you don't have much experience, and you'll probably mess some stuff up along the way. People likely to hire you at first are the same people who would be okay with this. If they aren't, then it wouldn't have worked out anyway.

    All I'm advocating here is some responsibility to produce to excellent work, or to be up front with the client about it instead.
    Bring out our hope and reason, before we pine away.

  10. #85
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    But what is the point of all of this discourse? You could look at it like:

    - if you think that too many clients don't know what they are doing and have unrealistic expectations, then avoid those clients

    - if you think that too many vendors are unskilled and doing crappy work for too little money, then don't be one of those vendors

    There is plenty of bad business going on, but to complain about how it's hurting everyone and making the industry suck doesn't really make sense. Nobody is forcing anyone to deal with awful clients (except perhaps when you are first starting out) or do crappy work (except when you are just learning). If you can't move up to better work and better clients, perhaps blaming the industry isn't the way to go.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  11. #86
    SitePoint Addict FizixRichard's Avatar
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    I agree, you don't have to work with those clients and companies, which I did get at as a side effect.

    But it doesn't mean its not annoying to see these things going on, or to be talked down by a client, them making out the good designers are ripping people off when the reality is that they don't know the difference between template and unique design.


    Another thing that does annoy me, its a pet peeve rather than something that affects me, is this scenario we all see too often.


    I have x idea that will be hugely popular. I really believe in my idea and so should you. My idea is so good, your risk is minimal and I shall prove it by giving away a stake in the profits.


    As a matter of discourse I always ask for money, at least close to the normal rate for these types of project. For one reason only, these people believe its low risk when they aren't taking the risk.

    If you are offering a % in the company then your entering venture capital territory, essentially.

    NO VC on the planet ever invests in a company thats not putting a significant amount of their own money and risk into their idea. Theres a simple and logical reason for this.

    If you truely believe in your idea, then taking out a $30,000 loan to get your idea to market and advertise it shouldn't be a problem.

    Spending $8,000 of your own money shows me that you BELIEVE in it yourself. If you dont believe in it yourself, the how on earth can you expect anyone else to.

    Basically, talk is cheap and claiming your idea to be a sound investment is easy. I always want that backed up by the client taking a risk also.


    There are two very simple realities:

    1. If the client doesn't believe in their idea enough to pay for it, to put their neck on the line then you are a fool to risk your livelyhood on them.

    2. If they are incapable of making $3,000 or even $8,000 to invest in their idea then they probably aren't capable of taking what you produce for them and make money out of it anyway.


    The bottom line in this scanario is simple. You need to spend money to make money and the field of dreams "if you make it they will come" is fools gold.

    If you cannot make enough money to pay for your idea, you probably lack the business acumen to make it work if you get the site created for you.

    If you are too afraid to risk your own money on your idea then it tells us one thing and one thing only. You dont believe in yourself and if you don't believe in yourself no one else can.
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  12. #87
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    But again, that scenario is easily avoided. I get the occasional email from someone with a 'great idea' and no money. I literally ignore them. I get the occasional contact from a ridiculous client that I wouldn't even talk to now. I ignore them.

    If you are still annoyed by this, climb the client ladder and put it all behind you.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  13. #88
    SitePoint Evangelist Tapan's Avatar
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    Hi,

    There's one thing. In this world there are things/services/products/people of all types of people. For eg. I can afford only a small car and some rich guy can afford Ferrari, now if Fiat starts thinking just for the people who can pay alot then where will I go ? Does this means that I have no right to drive a car ? No!

    This is where the low level stuff comes in. They launched a small car for small people. Now small people also enjoy the benefit of car. It may not be that luxurious but it works for them. Still I would like to get a Ferrari, but I cannot afford it, so I will try to find some defects etc. but rich guy ignores it and still buys a ferrari.

    So you really cannot blame customers etc. for all this. Its how this works in all the fields. So its you who has to decide which category you want to cater to ? Its going to be a small car or a ferrari.

    Also I am saying this becuase in our country first of all there's no preference to web at all and even if someone decides to have a website then the budget is INR 1000 to INR 5000 max. and they want a complete portal like yahoo in that. Can anyone in the world offer this ? The simple answer is NO atleast I can't. But you won't believe people here are doing it. They find some readymade scripts, fix the logo on top and install it and walla its done. They take money and move ahead to next fool. But the customer who got his pretty new website for just INR 4500 does not knows that it is useless and they quickly find that out when there's no hit on the website and eventually the site dies coz they don't want to renew the hosting/domain anymore.

    In India banks, credit card companies are encouraging people NOT TO use their credit cards online due to this we don't have any credit card processing company in India like Paypal etc. which offers solutions for even a starter. All we have is for big-shots. I sometimes don't understand what will happen if we keep on going like this ...but its useless. I am wasting my time thinking that because no one gives a damn. So its better to target your audience and concentrate on them.

    Thanks.

  14. #89
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    I have x idea that will be hugely popular. I really believe in my idea and so should you.
    If someone approaches you with a great idea or product, but no money and no nonce on how to promote it and it offering you a profit share deal, just turn around the offer to make it more appealing to you (assuming you feel it it has possibilities).

    'Yes, I'd be willing to take on your product - I'll create the site and I will market it for you and continue to handle ongoing sales and administration. But you sign the product over to me - it's mine, and I will give you a 7% cut of my sales.'

    That's no different to what a book publisher does - they take all the risk, and in return, they get over 90% of any money that is coming in.

    Doing this, I'm sure you'd soon get rid of the time wasters in 3 seconds flat.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Evangelist Tapan's Avatar
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    Everyone wants their website to be on top in google. But its not possible it does not means that you loose the hope. Some people prefer personalized services instead of submitting support tickets. Provide them that you will have good customer base. Some people like to submit tickets they won't come to you no matter what you do. So everything is already categorized. You have to decide which category you want to cater.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMichaud View Post

    I understand the dilemma of wanting to produce sites but not having a portfolio. I suggest you produce your OWN sites. Lots of them. I have lost count of number of sites I've made -- many of them fall under my own definition of suckitude, trust me. I'm talking about hundreds, maybe thousands, from start to finish. It will take you years. You'll learn a lot.

    As for delivering services when you're under-qualified, or producing them in a way you know to be suboptimal, I think it's acceptable to be honest with your clients.
    This is an excellent point. And there is certainly an inermediate stage as well, when we are very competent in one area, and can confidently market those skills to real live clients, while practicing and expanding our skills by experimenting on our own sites for ourselves. (or freebies for well-informed friends and family?) Expands the skillset and the portfolio (assuming you want anyone to see those experimental sites! )


    All I'm advocating here is some responsibility to produce to excellent work, or to be up front with the client about it instead.
    I think this is most important. Honesty with the client makes all the difference. Our clients aren't educated because we're not telling them the truth. I want a working relationship without surprises, and I'm pretty sure most clients do to. I feel a lot better about what I do if my clients know when we are treading on thin ice - either because we are approaching the limits of my skillset or because we are pushing the limits of good design/coding practice. I want to deliver quality, and I can't do that if I don't tell the truth.

  17. #92
    Life is short. Be happy today! silver trophybronze trophy Sagewing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cereal_girl View Post
    I think this is most important. Honesty with the client makes all the difference. Our clients aren't educated because we're not telling them the truth. I want a working relationship without surprises, and I'm pretty sure most clients do to. I feel a lot better about what I do if my clients know when we are treading on thin ice - either because we are approaching the limits of my skillset or because we are pushing the limits of good design/coding practice. I want to deliver quality, and I can't do that if I don't tell the truth.
    Uhh.. watch out with the 'we' thing There are plenty of people telling the truth to their clients, and plenty of smart clients, too. Not everyone is a bottom feeder.
    The fewer our wants, the nearer we resemble the gods. Socrates

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMichaud View Post
    The state of the "web design" and to a lesser extent the web development industry has been a source of frustration to me for many years.

    It always vexed me that the success stories were rarely related to the quality of output or anything like that, but more often were narratives of a system that someone developed by which he could churn large volumes of passable product, or enabled others to do the same (LogoWorks, for example).

    Certainly, the low barrier to entry created and exacerbated by desktop publishing and hacked copies of photoshop have contributed to the market saturation by the writhing tumult of mediocre (and worse) service providers. But that's not the whole picture.

    Wide availability is only half of the equation: the other is our lemon market. Basically, people consuming our service cannot distinguish quality, and therefore low quality offerings demand prices equal to high quality offerings, all things being equal. That means that our highly trained skills have been commoditized by market ignorance.

    Ours is worse than normal lemon industries, I'm afraid. In our case the bulk of crap isn't peddled by unscrupulous vendors looking for a quick buck and a schill to scam it from -- the crap is provided by well-meaning amateurs who believe the hype. The market is so rife with unprofessionalism, that even those within it take years to sort the wheat from the chaffe.

    Most people who suck don't realize they suck, and most people buying sucky service don't realize they're getting sucky service!

    The solution on a large scale is education, but it's not realistic until there is a market force that tends to push consumers to become educated. If a customer could drive a logo or an e-commerce system 75 miles per hour with darling, little Cindy-Lou strapped in the back, you can bet they'd want to make sure the logo has decent brakes.

    The fact is that the risk is just as real, if not as immediately life threatening: skimping on marketing or essential software systems is a great way to doom a start up. You might lose your life savings, or you might have to explain to little Cindy-Lou why Santa isn't coming this year -- you might just have a venture that fizzles quietly.

    That fizzle is a problem, because when a venture fizzles it normally isn't spectacular like Enron -- it's normally an almost imperceptible, little squeak that goes something like: "I just decided it was time to move on to other things," or "the market was too cold, I got in too late, oh well." It's never: "I started with a half-baked idea, I didn't take the time to research the market, I didn't invest what I should have in infrastructure or marketing, and therefore I failed to make this venture a success." We find it almost impossible to attribute failure directly to our decisions and actions.

    So here is where the dark synergy of ignorance and attribution bias forms the frothy, putrecent brew of market failure: Jimmy, on the same day, buys a car and a website, both for $1,000, both from Honest Bob's House of Used Cars and Web Design. Both products are delivered, and off Jim goes. In a month, the saw dust that kept Jim's junky car running finally lodged itself hopelessly in the gears of the dying vehicle, and the car simply stops moving forever. Jim cannot travel any further -- the car's failure is clear, and Bob's trickery is revealed. The market or the courts or both will take care of Bob's shady car business.

    Jim's web site, however, has also failed insidiously. It drives the few visitors who find it into the hills, never to return. The one person who tried to get the shopping cart checkout to work, never got the product, but thanks to faulty coding, his identity is now for sale in a Nigerian black market. In a few months Jim will grow tired of the "slow market," and quietly stop paying his monthly hosting bill, and the site will make that tiny little squeak I mentioned before: "Market's slow, the internet isn't all it's cracked up to be."

    That's why it behooves all of us to look at ourselves long and hard when we fail, or when our clients fail. It wasn't the bear market. It's not "just time." Statistically speaking, this probably applies to you, dear reader:

    You suck at web design. You are not qualified to design web applications. Your business idea will fail because you didn't think it through, and you hired the cheapest guy from a country you can't point out on a map to implement it. So you have a choice: you can cry about it and crawl under a rock, or you can stand up and do the hard work of educating yourself so you can stop taking half-assed stabs in the dark at the riches and glory that you claim to want but have taken to the path of least resistance to get to.

    Here's what you need to do: pick your field of interest, and test your metal against the best. Put your design work in front of a harsh critique; you could apply for a job at a good studio with your current portfolio just to see what they say. Put your code up for review on a geek mailing list or try to apply for a job somewhere that they only hire super hackers; again, just to see what they say. Pitch your business idea to a major venture capital firm.

    This experience will be humiliating, enlightening, and ultimately invaluable. It only takes a moment to open your eyes.
    Great post! I totally agree with you
    Hello.

  19. #94
    SitePoint Guru rageh's Avatar
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    As others before have pointed out, people who are starting out in the business of design and development often oversell their skills and deliver solutions not up to standard. They often charge much less for this service. There are no end of clients willing to hire them. Obviously these clients get what they paid for. Cheap means poor quality. And cheap things sell very well as we all know. This is not new.

    As regards those offering bad service, I think what it all comes down to is that many designers/developers try to be "the jack of all trades". All-rounder if you like. That is how they present themselves to prospective clients. And the client hires them as he/she is promised a complete web solution. Well, there are also those that cut corners and not spend that extra hour to make something secure.

    Many times you see an excellent web application with miserable graphics design. A tell-tale sign of a good back-end developer trying to do design work as well as the coding. Doing everything by yourself often results in offerings of bad quality. If you are professional, you should be brave enough to see your weak points and, more importantly, willing to hire a helping hand in delivering a solution that rocks.

    So it would be better for all concerned if people only advertise themselves in areas they have specialised. Is that going to happen? I doubt.
    ------------------

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    Wow, a lot well versed and informed people in this forum. I am so glad I joined, it's refreshing. So many posts on this, and not a single idiotic comment. Most forums have at least one or two flaming numbskulls. People that post "u r dum", or type in lazy chat room speak. It's like finding a forum for adults.

  21. #96
    SitePoint Evangelist old_expat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowbox View Post
    That's no different to what a book publisher does - they take all the risk, and in return, they get over 90% of any money that is coming in.
    I think you need to qualify that, shadowbox. The writer will have obviously put a lot of time at risk, and may have put some cash at risk .. editing, printing manuscripts, etc.

  22. #97
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    Here is my take on it:

    People try to rush things out, and not compare their design ot real quality, only that "it works". I used to use the cheapest moves when making fansites (one of those childhood starters) until one site opened my eyes to what quality was. Although I've yet to fully meet what I like (though, I normally do work I'm proud of nowadays ), I keep at it and work with the clients to ensure their vision is being seen. Everyday is another learning experience.

    Another thing about the business, it is a hard thing to get there. My issue is money, which I'm tight on. So I'm usually the one that does all the work for my projects, which is fine with me (even if it is overwhelming). Why? It is a pride thing that you made it but most importantly, that you have full control (not in the dark of what just happened on night from an outsourced designer).

    The thign about the markets is that you need to stand out from the rest of them. You can't expect to be as successful as (or close to) YouTube.com by getting up some ClipShare site, even with a very shiney design. What is needed to make it up there is something new. Of course 100% unique/new is hard to get to, but giving a twist that just makes your site shine mroe than the others is the goal of any successful business, if they wish to stay successful.

    Those who are successful now had done something that was new or appealing. If you just expect that entering a market with the same power means you'll be just like the one you're mimicking, this is the wrong market to enter.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagewing View Post
    Uhh.. watch out with the 'we' thing There are plenty of people telling the truth to their clients, and plenty of smart clients, too. Not everyone is a bottom feeder.
    My apologies, Sagewing!
    Of course, I meant 'we' in the context of 'the industry in general,' not we as in 'you and me'. I am talking about my commitment to honesty and 'client-education' in response to PMichaud's indication that he holds those same values - while I may not communicate clearly (pretty much ever :S ) I am quite aware that there are a lot of honest, ethical, committed professionals out there.
    I made the "we're lying to them" statement, not to suggest that we are all irresponsible or dishonest. I just wanted to make the point that, since we (theoretically) have the skills to distinguish quality from crap, the responsibility to inform and educate the clients lies with us.
    We was intended to indicate "us not them" rather than "all of us".
    I really meant nothing by it! Sorry.

  24. #99
    SitePoint Guru rageh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMichaud View Post
    Similarly, if you're just starting out and you insist on getting real, live clients, then you need to be honest with them -- you need to explain that you're a cut rate supplier in this industry, and the reason is that you don't have much experience, and you'll probably mess some stuff up along the way.
    If you admit that you may mess things up due to lack of knowledge, you will not get that gig I am afraid. Nobody in their right mind would hire you. However, you can instead assess the requirement and see if you can truly deliver what the client wants. One should not lead the client on as if they know everything. Be truthful. If you cannot do a job, there no shame saying so upfront.

    Alternatively, you may as well take the job but be ready to subcontract out those bits that you are the least knowledgeable about. But one will be fool to admit to client that they will mess things up. Clients want assurance that things will be delivered in a robust and timely fashion. They don't want dithering.
    ------------------

  25. #100
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    Perplexed

    Wow... a guy couldn't be more off base...

    1st off, you can never blame the consumer for taking the market the wrong way: they ARE the market by definition.

    Second, Photoshop, while being a flagship product, is not the only "right" way to do business as you imply. GIMP is a viable solution for web graphic design. There is NO disputing that.

    I will keep this long, so let me end here, on my very first post on sitepoint.com:

    What has ruined the industry is M$. They constantly put out products the DON'T ADHERE TO THE STANDARDS. Rather than taking a stand, we write patched code and hacked CSS code to make their JUNK work. Why can't the industry do something noble, like stand on principles? Make compliant sites and not hack for M$? Let the consumer keep hearing this phrase: "IE is not w3c compliant". Maybe M$ will either fix the issue or the consumer will start using compliant browsers.

    There is the real issue: non-compliance. It is the level of complexity that IE bring to the design level that people are cashing in on.

    Ever do w3c compliance on frontpage code?

    Out.


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