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  1. #126
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    molona's Avatar
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    Viflux, it is kind of obvious that Bill Gates' words can lead to many interpretations, but I think that drhowarddrfine is correct. Web developers do not expect much from Microsoft, to be honest. What they do want them to do is to follow standards. For me, that sentence is telling me that standards compliance will still be partial hence it doesn't help me much.

  2. #127
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Viflux, it is kind of obvious that Bill Gates' words can lead to many interpretations, but I think that drhowarddrfine is correct. .
    Sorry; I can't agree. That interpretation of what was said is about the same as describing White as Black and it's a great shame because once again an interesting thread has been turned into an anti-Microsoft rant.
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  3. #128
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Pfft. The people who want to defend Microsoft's inability to do things just look for any little crack to drive a wedge in to justify their failed attempts at finding ways to discredit any negativity.

    The truth hurts, doesn't it? Bill Gates says "Our browser won't have everything everyone wants." but that doesn't mean anything? True, I slightly misquoted but, like I said, I responded from memory and not the actual quote. When asked for the quote I supplied it. In any case, IE8 will not have what people want and that is not a good thing. Can't you handle the truth?

    It's funny when any product of Microsoft gets dissed, someone eventually comes along and says "Oh, it's just an anti-Microsoft rant." Remember just a couple of years ago when everyone dissed Firefox as a bad browser because it didn't behave like IE? The tide has turned as more and more people learn the truth about IEs behavior and that is no anti-MS rant. That is reality. That is the truth.

  4. #129
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    My next product release won't have everything that everyone wants.

    Neither will yours.

    Neither will ANY product.

    It's impossible to satisfy everyone. If your interpretation of Gates' comment is that IE8 won't follow standards, that's fine. It isn't my interpretation, nor is it everyone's.

    Personally, I don't believe that IE8 will completely implement the W3C standards, and I couldn't care less.

    But to infer that it won't, simply from that comment, is outlandish.

    I'm not asking you to become a Microsoft fan. I'm just asking that you let the facts stand for themselves, without attempting to misrepresent them to benefit your own stance. We both know that there's enough wrong Microsoft, in general, and IE, specifically, to let those flaws stand on their own in support of your view.

    Viflux, it is kind of obvious that Bill Gates' words can lead to many interpretations, but I think that drhowarddrfine is correct.
    You think that him saying "it won't have everything that everyone wants" can be interpreted as "IE8 won't be a better product"? As far as I'm concerned, if IE8 implements ANY single part of the standard that IE7 didn't, then it's already "better".

  5. #130
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Pfft. The people who want to defend Microsoft's inability to do things just look for any little crack to drive a wedge in to justify their failed attempts at finding ways to discredit any negativity.

    The truth hurts, doesn't it? Bill Gates says "Our browser won't have everything everyone wants." but that doesn't mean anything? True, I slightly misquoted but, like I said, I responded from memory and not the actual quote. When asked for the quote I supplied it. In any case, IE8 will not have what people want and that is not a good thing. Can't you handle the truth?

    It's funny when any product of Microsoft gets dissed, someone eventually comes along and says "Oh, it's just an anti-Microsoft rant." Remember just a couple of years ago when everyone dissed Firefox as a bad browser because it didn't behave like IE? The tide has turned as more and more people learn the truth about IEs behavior and that is no anti-MS rant. That is reality. That is the truth.
    I think if you are going to quote somebody it's very important to quote them verbatim because otherwise you weaken your own argument; the way that you did when you allowed your prejudice to colour your interpretation of what you thought had been said. That is where the problem lies. I have no interest in defending IE as I am not a big fan anyway; but that does not mean that I am not interested in the ongoing debate as to whether or not Opera are justified in their action regarding Microsoft. You are right the truth can hurt and the truth is you are not prepared to allow the debate to continue without an undercurrent of Microsoft detraction which for the most part is baseless.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  6. #131
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    molona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viflux View Post
    My next product release won't have everything that everyone wants.
    You are right saying that a product will not satisfy everyone as it is nearly impossible to include what everyone wants, and that means every single one... We all know that... but it is also true and a fact that there is just one thing that web developers wanted from Microsoft, only one thing... be standards compliant. Is this such a big petition?. Time will tell if I am wrong, of course, but my personal belief that what Bill Gates says is that IE8 will not be fully standard compliant, mainly because that interview was really directed to web professionals more than general public, and this was the one thing that all web developers asked for. Once again, Microsoft failed to bring the most basic request...

    I truly don't know how much profit brings to Microsoft to follow the path they follow, but it must bring them good cash, because Microsoft still do what they want, and not what the community is asking from them. I think is sad because what the web development community wants is to be able to produce what users want.... but those are just my thoughts, of course.

  7. #132
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobyme View Post
    the way that you did when you allowed your prejudice to colour your interpretation of what you thought had been said.
    Again, I quoted from memory. You assume prejudice but remember my memory was based on fact. If words trip you guys up so easily, maybe you need to find something else to do. You distract from the facts when one messes up the words but the facts remain the same. Then you focus on the mistakes posted rather than the facts and use them in your defense. To base your position on the mis-remembering of a quote, and not that the the point is still true, is a weak position to have on your part.

    The fact remains that IE8 is not what everyone wants and Microsoft admits to it. Microsoft is also not saying what it is. So laying the ground work for what it isn't sounds like a setup for disappointment.

  8. #133
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Doc's got a point.

  9. #134
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    What point? If you mean make a disingenuous remark about a statement taken out of context, then retract based on faulty memory, then reinforce your argument by reconstructing the words "it doesn’t add everything that everybody wants" into "IE8 will not be a better product" then I guess your right.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  10. #135
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    He didn't retract his statement. When he originally made the statement, he said he was going BASED OFF OF memory. And we all know what a fickle creature memory can be at times.

  11. #136
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Call me old fashioned but if I replace one statement with another because the content of my first statement was incorrect due to my faulty memory; isn't my first statement retracted by default?
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  12. #137
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Not if the second statement is reinforcing the first.

  13. #138
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    God I feel like I am entering the twilight zone. This was his first statement "IE8 will not be a better product that everyone wants and Bill Gates, Dean H, Chris Wilson have all said so." which was replaced with "IE8 will not be a better product that everyone wants" and finally (The only truthful statement and even then taken out of overall context), "it doesn’t add everything that everybody wants". It's becoming grotesque.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  14. #139
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    I just looked back at Viflux complaint about what I said and he didn't include my complete statement. Talk about out of context! I don't feel I was out of line at all with what I said.

    Again, you guys are trying to detract from the facts. You have lost the argument and your position is weak. Now you are grasping at straws and finding none. I'm the only one that provided links and quotes but you have provided nothing. But you feel my posts are grounds for YOUR positions. Ha!

  15. #140
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    You haven't presented any "facts". You have posted your interpretation of what you think Bill Gates said during his interview with Molly Holzschlag; unfortunately you strayed so far from what was actually said that your interpretation is derisible. I don't have a position so how can it to be weak? I am not defending IE or criticising Opera. I am interested in whether or not Opera's complaint against Microsoft has merit and I am prepared to listen to both sides of the argument without prejudice. I do not expect either side of the debate to present me with misleading information. You may think I disagree with you but I would take a similar position if your antagonists resorted to similar tactics.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  16. #141
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobyme View Post
    You haven't presented any "facts".
    Then you haven't read anything. I presented links and quotes. You and no one else has. You and Viflux counter with nothing.

    Fact 1: Microsoft is being secretive about what is being added to and upgraded in IE8. Posted in my own thread and linked to the IEBlog about this elsewhere on this forum. Hundreds of posts by developers complaining about this.

    You and Viflux and others counter with nothing.

    Fact2: In response to a poster saying IE8 will squash Firefox, I said IE8 needs to be a better product to do that and it won't. I said Bill Gates said so. The actual quote from Bill Gates is:
    In terms of standards support, he’ll see that it’s a glass half full.
    In another post, either here or on my own thread I link to the IEBlog and show where Chris Wilson or Dean states something like "We have to determine what standards we will include or follow". So they are going to pick and choose what they want, it sounds like.

    You and Viflux and others counter with nothing.

    Fact 3: If IE8 is going to be a better browser then it needs to include things web developers want, as evidenced in my links to the IEBlog. But Bill Gates says:
    It adds a bunch of new stuff we didn’t have before, it doesn’t add everything that everybody wants us to do.
    That's the exact quote but you say:
    You have posted your interpretation of what you think Bill Gates said
    and
    you strayed so far from what was actually said that your interpretation is derisible.
    How can I stray from a direct quote?!

    Again, you and Viflux counter with nothing. You have nothing. I supply links and quotes but you pounce on a mis-remembrance (and I retract saying I 'mis-remember') and then supply...nothing. So if you and Viflux have nothing to contribute....

  17. #142
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    I am sorry I cannot take you seriously anymore; you are starting to remind me of one of our recently departed leaders here in Britain. You misrepresented what was said and if you cannot see that; there is nothing more to talk about. In fairness you did post a link and I would urge others to read it. http://www.molly.com/2007/12/05/conv...-transparency/

    There are some fine minds on these forums which I deeply respect however I will be flabbergasted if they can equate that interview with:

    IE8 will not be a better product that everyone wants and Bill Gates, Dean H, Chris Wilson have all said so.
    IE8 will not be a better product that everyone wants
    There are three kinds of men:
    The ones that learn by reading.
    The few who learn by observation.
    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  18. #143
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Again, you answer me with my own links and quotes, have nothing to offer, do not counter with anything new, have nothing to say.

    Here's a question you can't answer. Show me where Bill Gates, et al, show or say that IE8 will be better than other browsers. You can't do it because you won't find it, you won't research it, you won't try, you have nothing to offer and nothing to say.

  19. #144
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    You are totally missing the point. I have no reason to believe that IE8 is going to be better than any other browser or any worse and certainly no proof. I do know that I am not consumed with a hatred of Microsoft, Opera, Mozilla or any other company for that matter to such a degree that I would be prepared to make things up in order to prove a point and that is my only objection. You had ample opportunities to preface your remarks with "I believe", "I think", "My guess is" but you chose not to do that and instead attributed the conclusions that you arrived at to statements made by Bill Gates; which was and is untrue. That is my single and only objection. How hard is it to say "Yes, I overstepped the mark there" and if it makes you happier add a rider "But I still think Microsoft are ****"; I can respect that.
    There are three kinds of men:
    The ones that learn by reading.
    The few who learn by observation.
    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  20. #145
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Calm down, gentlemen.

  21. #146
    SitePoint Member Surfdude's Avatar
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    I use both browsers and remember the time when I could not visit Microsoft site using Opera. There was simple workaround where you could set Opera to identify itself as IE, which in turn displayed MS site as usual. Microsoft set its server to look out for Opera users and make their web experience on their site as miserable as possible. Pathetic.


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