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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    It sounds like IE8 will only run on Vista and Vienna and Microsoft's sales of XP separate from a computer has gone through the roof since computers started shipping with Vista (as people want to swap back to an operating system that will actually run the software that they have). If that is the case then the number of people actually able to run IE8 will be such a small percentage as to make that browser irrelevant.
    I can tell you that buying a new PC in Spain with Windows XP installed is more expensive that if it has Windows Vista. Therefore, people are buying Vista, although it gives quite a bit of problems and has a lot of content blocking just for the shake of security...

  2. #52
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    It's quite funny; when this thread was first posted I was on the fence probably because I don't use Internet Explorer or Opera so I thought I would install Opera and give it a try. My verdict? I don't like it and whatever Browser does eventually rule the roost; I guarantee you it won't be Opera.
    There are three kinds of men:
    The ones that learn by reading.
    The few who learn by observation.
    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  3. #53
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    What is obvious, is that Microsoft (IE) has a good percentage dominance in the marketplace. Apple (Safari) comes in second. Linux/Unix/Sun (usually Firefox for Linux variants) and variants, comes in third and later. With that being said, it is a no-brainer that IE rules the browser market because it is bundled with Windows.

    The solution, well sorry guys... It is a new operating system (Apple Open-Darwin based on x86 and x86-64) that should allow the consumer the choice to use whatever software they choose... AND it should be sold along side Windows machines in the Best buys, Circuit City's, Staples, etc of the world (well the US here). Otherwise Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc will not get any dominance at all.

    Will it happen? Nope. Sorry opera, I can't back you on this one. The only way Opera can get some dominance in the desktop market, is to bundle itself with an OS (Ubuntu for Dell, and have Mark Shuttleworth, Michael Dell, and Opera promote the hell out this product - kiosks [Ubuntu Dell is not at any Dell kiosk] and at Staples, where it now is sold [Ubuntu Dell is not at any Staples either]) and get it sold.

    This sounds like when AMD suing Intel for the same thing...
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4629963.stm

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post
    What is obvious, is that Microsoft (IE) has a good percentage dominance in the marketplace. Apple (Safari) comes in second. Linux/Unix/Sun (usually Firefox for Linux variants) and variants, comes in third and later. With that being said, it is a no-brainer that IE rules the browser market because it is bundled with Windows.
    Yet Firefox is at least twice as popular as Safari, even though Apple's operating systems are much more popular than Linux, if I'm not mistaken.

    Otherwise Firefox, Opera, Safari, etc will not get any dominance at all.
    But they already are gaining dominance. "Get a Mac" is the message being heard by more and more people who are getting burned out by Vista, IE and other Microsoft crapware. In a few years, Safari could be more popular than Firefox, which is currently in second place, nearing first place in some countries.

    And I believe Opera is commonly used in certain "fringe markets" (e.g. mobile devices), isn't it?

    Will it happen? Nope. Sorry opera, I can't back you on this one.
    Again, it IS happening, though Opera does indeed appear to have been left out in the cold. Still, it is a dynamic browser with its own fan club and, with the European Union on its side, it should not be counted out.

  5. #55
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    Even many people who otherwise support alternative browsers chafe at the thought of legislating web standards, noting that they are really little more than recommendations. On this thread or a related thread I suggested an alternative strategy - to merely require browsers to advertise standards compliance ratings.

    I posted a browser ratings poll and started a discussion here. This is the type of "spinoff" that can result from lawsuits of this nature. But such solutions would have a much greater chance of seeing the light of day if web designers stopped sitting on their hands and made their voices heard.

    Do WE care about web standards? Do WE think they matter? Or are we all going to surrender to Microsoft's mantra?: "No one cares."

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    geosite, Your idea is a great idea to advertise standards compliance ratings. That would inform everyday users that someone cares about their web experience.

    Until then....

    Who has informed the end user about Web Standards? Not your clients, not other web designers/developers, but the everyday Joe? Why does it matter to them?

    Yes, WE think Web Standards matter, but do the millions of users of (examples here) youtube.com, facebook.com, myspace.com, microsoft.com, apple.com, etc care that the site they are viewing doesn't have proper markup at least?

    Let me ask this, in a corporate setting and they use their own in-house web applications, how many of them are standards compliant? How many are to accessibility standards?

    Let me ask, where is your browser statistics coming from? w3c?
    http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
    "W3Schools is a website for people with an interest for web technologies. These people are more interested in using alternative browsers than the average user. The average user tends to use Internet Explorer, since it comes preinstalled with Windows. Most do not seek out other browsers.

    These facts indicate that the browser figures above are not 100% realistic. Other web sites have statistics showing that Internet Explorer is used by at least 80% of the users.

    Anyway, our data, collected from W3Schools' log-files, over a five year period, clearly shows the long and medium-term trends."
    Tell me why a non-web designer/developer would choose another browser other than the one that came pre-installed in their computer/device? What does standards mean to the everyday Joe?

    You don't need to sell me, Opera needs to sell that to the everyday consumer.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Yet Firefox is at least twice as popular as Safari, even though Apple's operating systems are much more popular than Linux, if I'm not mistaken.
    To web designers, developers, and those who caught on to tabbed browsing back during IE6 till now.


    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Again, it IS happening, though Opera does indeed appear to have been left out in the cold. Still, it is a dynamic browser with its own fan club and, with the European Union on its side, it should not be counted out.
    Media Player was stripped from Windows and it didn't sell

    From the OP's second linked article
    Opera said it was asking EU regulators to apply the principles of their landmark antitrust ruling ordering Microsoft to market a version of Windows without its media player program, even though there were few takers when it later went on sale.

  8. #58
    Employed Again Viflux's Avatar
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    I'm a little late to the party, but does anyone else believe that Internet Explorer not implementing standards is a *good* thing for the developers of alternative browsers?

    If standards support is one of the factors driving people to Opera and/or Firefox, you would think they'd want to keep that advantage, not force Microsoft into closing the gap.

    I've never heard of a company attempting to force a competitor into improving their product.

  9. #59
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpvr View Post
    I just read it on the yahoo news as well. I wonder what the outcome will be.
    I doubt anything will actually come of it. Sueing Microsoft is pretty popular these days and everyone seems to want to do it now.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post
    Who has informed the end user about Web Standards? Not your clients, not other web designers/developers, but the everyday Joe?
    That's the point. No one has made an effort to inform the general public of web standards. Requiring browsers to advertise their ratings would help accomplish this.

    Why does it matter to them?
    What does it matter whether or not it matters to them? Food packaging lists ingredients and additives, even though many people ignore such notices. But SOME people do care about what they eat. Similarly, SOME people will care about web standards, for their own reasons.

    Yes, WE think Web Standards matter, but do the millions of users of (examples here) youtube.com, facebook.com, myspace.com, microsoft.com, apple.com, etc care that the site they are viewing doesn't have proper markup at least?
    Most probably don't, but some do, and more might care if they understood what web standards are all about. But you're missing the point...my idea is to rate BROWSERS, not websites.

    Let me ask this, in a corporate setting and they use their own in-house web applications, how many of them are standards compliant? How many are to accessibility standards?
    What difference does it make? My goal is to rate BROWSERS, not web sites.

    Tell me why a non-web designer/developer would choose another browser other than the one that came pre-installed in their computer/device? What does standards mean to the everyday Joe?
    Again, you're missing the point. I'm not suggesting that we force people to choose a particular browser. I'm merely advocating a standards rating icon that browsers be required to display. People will still be free to switch browsers or not switch browsers.

    You don't need to sell me, Opera needs to sell that to the everyday consumer.
    No, this isn't just about Opera. Like a dog being wagged by its tail, web designers have been jerked around by Microsoft for far too long. In the meantime, there are powers that threaten to take over the Internet itself. It's time for web designers to take a stand. We could start by telling the world that we would like to begin nurturing quality web browsers by urging them to embrace web standards, which most of us agree will make web surfing a better experience and will also make life a little easier for web designers.

    Waiting for the general public to discover web standards and somehow decide which of those standards are important to them is just plain silly.

  11. #61
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    (Firefox is increasingly popular...)

    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post
    To web designers, developers, and those who caught on to tabbed browsing back during IE6 till now.
    Oh, really? You mean more than 10% of our population consists of geeks?

    Firefox is also increasingly popular with people who visit my websites or other websites that promote Firefox (often through Google referrals), especially sites that also inform the public about browsers and other Internet issues. Firefox has a huge market share in some countries. If 30% of the public is using Firefox, I doubt they're all geeks.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viflux View Post
    I'm a little late to the party, but does anyone else believe that Internet Explorer not implementing standards is a *good* thing for the developers of alternative browsers?

    If standards support is one of the factors driving people to Opera and/or Firefox, you would think they'd want to keep that advantage, not force Microsoft into closing the gap.

    I've never heard of a company attempting to force a competitor into improving their product.
    I don't know what Opera's game plan is, but let's apply a little logic.

    1. Opera doesn't win in court, and Internet Explorer doesn't improve (as most people here seem to be predicting). What has Opera lost? It has publicized Microsoft as an ongoing anti-trust villain AND publicized the existence of web standards, along with the fact that its browser is standards compliant.

    2. Opera wins. Depending on exactly what it wins, Microsoft sill may not clean up its act. If it does, it's going to take a long time for Microsoft to make IE standards compliant. Remember, Microvictims are currently backgrading from IE7 to IE6, and IE8 is already sounding like a dud. Can you imagine Joe Q. Public being told to wait for IE9, a standards compliant browser that only works with Vista?

    In the meantime, net surfing isn't about standards alone. If M$ did manage to produce a standards compliant browser, would it really be the equal of Firefox or Opera? These browsers have all sorts of special features that set them apart. What about security?

    I agree that Opera's legal challenge sounds a little shaky. But it's also possible that they see a bigger picture the rest of us are missing. Opera also has the European Union on its side. I certainly doubt that Microsoft is taking this as lightly as many people on this thread are.

    Win or lose, this case would appear to be a public relations nightmare for Microsoft.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    That's the point. No one has made an effort to inform the general public of web standards. Requiring browsers to advertise their ratings would help accomplish this.
    I agree, but i said, until that happens....

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    What does it matter whether or not it matters to them? Food packaging lists ingredients and additives, even though many people ignore such notices. But SOME people do care about what they eat. Similarly, SOME people will care about web standards, for their own reasons.
    Because the end consumer has to buy it. Now your not selling to your client, you are selling to the end user, who may not care that what they are viewing is XHTML strict, with valid CSS, or that the browser allows them to view in CSS3 or not. That is for the developers. Do the end consumers care that canning techniques are up to FDA standards, or the machinery is upkept to a industrial standard, etc. BY LAW, manufacturers have to put these ingrediants, kosher, etc because if effects the end consumer directly. Not the example standards i put up for machinery or canning.

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Most probably don't, but some do, and more might care if they understood what web standards are all about. But you're missing the point...my idea is to rate BROWSERS, not websites.
    My point there was to show that WE developers care, but the devs of popular websites don't adhere to at least HTML standard. Until we rate browsers, we can rate/validate websites that adhere to the standards.
    [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    What difference does it make? My goal is to rate BROWSERS, not web sites.
    It goes back to informing the public, IT, if no one knows about standards, they wont make it or use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Again, you're missing the point. I'm not suggesting that we force people to choose a particular browser. I'm merely advocating a standards rating icon that browsers be required to display. People will still be free to switch browsers or not switch browsers.
    Your not suggesting, Opera is


    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    No, this isn't just about Opera. Like a dog being wagged by its tail, web designers have been jerked around by Microsoft for far too long. In the meantime, there are powers that threaten to take over the Internet itself. It's time for web designers to take a stand. We could start by telling the world that we would like to begin nurturing quality web browsers by urging them to embrace web standards, which most of us agree will make web surfing a better experience and will also make life a little easier for web designers.
    Opera is suing Microsoft, I am sure they need to now sell standards to the public now.

    It is the consumers with the buying power to sway which way the tides will turn. Tell the public and show them they will get a better browser experience, then they will move in your favor. Otherwise, keep the general public in the dark like Microsoft does now.

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Waiting for the general public to discover web standards and somehow decide which of those standards are important to them is just plain silly.
    But we want them to use standards compliant browser?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    (Firefox is increasingly popular...)
    Not debating that...

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Oh, really? You mean more than 10% of our population consists of geeks?
    If you mean tabbed browsing? Then yes, it is a better user experience than the single window of IE6. Of course more people will use something more practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Firefox is also increasingly popular with people who visit my websites or other websites that promote Firefox (often through Google referrals), especially sites that also inform the public about browsers and other Internet issues. Firefox has a huge market share in some countries. If 30% of the public is using Firefox, I doubt they're all geeks.
    I guess that 30% of your public? Can you or anyone give stats on major sites? I bet that number is smaller.

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    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    centered,
    W3Schools is not in any way connected to the W3C, either directly or indirectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    Opera also has the European Union on its side. I certainly doubt that Microsoft is taking this as lightly as many people on this thread are.
    So did the media player software makers as well, as I pointed out before. MS complied and no one stepped up to fill the Media Player-less Windows, so it flopped in sales. So if Opera wins, then Opera needs to sell, sell, sell, to everyone. Actually why aren't they doing it now? Why aren't we doing it now? If so, we are the ads?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    centered,
    W3Schools is not in any way connected to the W3C, either directly or indirectly.
    I ment to say schools.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobyme View Post
    It's quite funny; when this thread was first posted I was on the fence probably because I don't use Internet Explorer or Opera so I thought I would install Opera and give it a try. My verdict? I don't like it and whatever Browser does eventually rule the roost; I guarantee you it won't be Opera.
    I don't think that this thread is about what we use to browse the web. I think this thread is about if Microsoft should be following web standards (w3c recommendations) or not and why Opera has filed a complain about it. Being an acting member of the W3C, I think that Microsoft should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viflux View Post
    I'm a little late to the party, but does anyone else believe that Internet Explorer not implementing standards is a *good* thing for the developers of alternative browsers?

    If standards support is one of the factors driving people to Opera and/or Firefox, you would think they'd want to keep that advantage, not force Microsoft into closing the gap.

    I've never heard of a company attempting to force a competitor into improving their product.
    I really think that Opera wants to have the web development community by his side. It is always good to have them as friends and get them to know you. I also think that, if they are successful as others were in the past, it may delay Microsoft plans to implement and integrate IE8 into the OS. That means that Microsoft would have wasted quite a bit of money and they would have to take a step back for the second time. This could give competitors more time to get a higher advantage.

  20. #70
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post

    Will it happen? Nope. Sorry opera, I can't back you on this one. The only way Opera can get some dominance in the desktop market, is to bundle itself with an OS (Ubuntu for Dell, and have Mark Shuttleworth, Michael Dell, and Opera promote the hell out this product - kiosks [Ubuntu Dell is not at any Dell kiosk] and at Staples, where it now is sold [Ubuntu Dell is not at any Staples either]) and get it sold.
    Actually Opera has some very high market share in mobile browsers, the browser in the Wii is opera, and it's in a lot more places you wouldn't expect. I personally don't like it for my usage as a desktop browser but that doesn't make it useless or unnecessary. To be honest I think they should focus more on those markets and pitch the desktop browser as an easy development/runtime environment to test for those devices.

  21. #71
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Well, as the person who started this thread, I'll tell you exactly what it's about. It's a thread about a current event, nothing more. Which is why I asked people to keep their evangelism and vendettas out of this thread. Comment all you want, just don't let it get to your heads.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite View Post
    I don't know what Opera's game plan is, but let's apply a little logic.

    1. Opera doesn't win in court, and Internet Explorer doesn't improve (as most people here seem to be predicting)....
    Win or lose, this case would appear to be a public relations nightmare for Microsoft.
    This is not a legal suit, it is just a document informing about a certain situation and asking the European Community to investigate and take action. Opera isn't suing Microsoft. I agree with you that it may be a nightmare for Microsoft's public relations department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post
    Because the end consumer has to buy it.
    Web browsers are generally free.

    Now your not selling to your client, you are selling to the end user, who may not care that what they are viewing is XHTML strict, with valid CSS, or that the browser allows them to view in CSS3 or not. That is for the developers.
    The same can be said of just about industry. Take the food industry, for example. Many, perhaps most, people don't bother checking food containers for ingredients or warnings. But some do, and the food industry's "developers" certainly do.

    Web standards are becoming increasingly important, and it's absurd to keep harping, "No one cares." How do you know? Have you conducted a survey that proves no one on the planet cares about web standards?

    Do the end consumers care that canning techniques are up to FDA standards, or the machinery is upkept to a industrial standard, etc. BY LAW, manufacturers have to put these ingrediants, kosher, etc because if effects the end consumer directly.
    BINGO. Web standards are becoming increasingly important as well. While I'm a little uncertain about supporting the idea of making web standards support a legal requirement, I like the idea of somehow stepping in that direction. The idea I'm playing with right now is to simply require browser manufacturers to display web standard ratings on their browsers. They would still be free to thumb their noses at web standards, and consumers would still be free to choose browsers that are not compliant.

    My point there was to show that WE developers care, but the devs of popular websites don't adhere to at least HTML standard. Until we rate browsers, we can rate/validate websites that adhere to the standards.
    Why not do both? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to rate a dozen browsers than a gazillion web pages?

    Tell the public and show them they will get a better browser experience, then they will move in your favor. Otherwise, keep the general public in the dark like Microsoft does now.
    It isn't just Microsoft; virtually NO ONE is making an effort to inform the public about web standards, and I suspect even many web designers don't see where web standards fit into the big picture.

    But we want them to use standards compliant browser?
    That would get my vote.

    So did the media player software makers as well, as I pointed out before. MS complied and no one stepped up to fill the Media Player-less Windows, so it flopped in sales.
    Sorry, I'm more focused on software that just about everyone uses, namely web browers. I can't say I'm terribly interested in Media Player-less Windows.

    So if Opera wins, then Opera needs to sell, sell, sell, to everyone.
    Baloney. If Opera wins, its market share will likely start climbing slowly, but it will never wipe out IE, Firefox and Safari combined - nor does it need to.

    Actually why aren't they doing it now?
    They're competing against Microsoft. And even if it could be argued that Microsoft is playing by the rules now, it broke a helluva lot of rules to get to where it is today.

    Safari would likely be in the same spot it if wasn't attached to a computer that's now embarrassing Microsoft on a continual basis. Firefox is the darling of the open source community. Nuff said.

    Opera is a relatively small corporation with a small inventory and few "hooks," aside from the fact that it makes a dynamite browser. Unfortunately, facts don't always sell in the modern market place, which is largely ruled by attorneys and public relations experts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    I'm a Firefox user myself and can't really stand IE, but...

    W3C is not a democratically elected authority. The people who use the internet have not delegated any decision making power to this institution. Overwhelming majority of internet users do not know such an institution even exists. Their standards mean absolutely nothing, are not law, and never will be law. And as long as they are not law, another company cannot be forced to act upon them.

    A "standard", by every definition that could be used in a law enforcement situation would by something that is accepted as the norm by the majority, which in this case happens to be Internet Explorer.

    If your product is so much better than Internet Explorer, it should be able to gain market share by itself. If it doesn't, you have not understood the needs of your customers correctly, and I can tell you that the majority of Firefox and Opera fans running around have absolutely no clue how they could improve the browsing experience for the average user, not just the hardcore one. To lots of average users I have seen, Firefox and Opera appear bloated, with lots of functions they don't need.

    As a customer, I would be VERY disappointed if a browser was not installed by default on my Windows installation.
    Well said..

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    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Again, you're missing the point. I'm not suggesting that we force people to choose a particular browser. I'm merely advocating a standards rating icon that browsers be required to display. People will still be free to switch browsers or not switch browsers.
    Your not suggesting, Opera is
    Can't agree with you. I don't think that Opera is forcing anyone to change browsers. I think that Opera is merely taking advantage of Microsoft bad practices to get some publicity and the web development community by their side, with one more advantage: if the European Commission decides to take action, Microsoft can suffer a big loss of money if they are forced to untie IE from the OS for a second time.

    Obviously, even if the European Commission does nothing, Opera may still have new users from people that will see Microsoft as even and Opera as a little angel, but time and statistics will tell about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by centered effect View Post
    Opera is suing Microsoft, I am sure they need to now sell standards to the public now.
    I insist that this is not a lawsuit, just a formal complaint.

    It is the consumers with the buying power to sway which way the tides will turn. Tell the public and show them they will get a better browser experience, then they will move in your favor. Otherwise, keep the general public in the dark like Microsoft does now.


    But we want them to use standards compliant browser?
    Users don't care about this, not even IT people, but web developers care (or at least we should) because we should be professionals and test our sites (and make them work) in as many browsers as we can imagine, even if we know that most of the users will browse with IE... I am not happy with having to work harder just because of one browser. Still, I wouldn't be annoyed if Microsoft didn't participate in W3C. But they do, and they help to create those standards, and then make my life harder... You have to practice what you preach, and that's what Microsoft doesn't do.


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