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  1. #26
    Brevity is greatly overrated brandaggio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    I'm a Firefox user myself and can't really stand IE, but...

    If your product is so much better than Internet Explorer, it should be able to gain market share by itself. If it doesn't, you have not understood the needs of your customers correctly, and I can tell you that the majority of Firefox and Opera fans running around have absolutely no clue how they could improve the browsing experience for the average user, not just the hardcore one. To lots of average users I have seen, Firefox and Opera appear bloated, with lots of functions they don't need.

    As a customer, I would be VERY disappointed if a browser was not installed by default on my Windows installation.
    ^You are pretty spot on here.

    If Safari was a crappy browser that did not render pages mostly the same as Opera and Firefox than people (meaning our kind - the people that debate this at all) would be similarly annoyed (additionally Finder and Safari are different applications so the file browser and the web browser are not intertwined). If Mac did not have a default browser installed, this would of course be absurd - inhibiting the device from doing what is was partially designed to do - out of the box. A bad biz decision faw shaw.

    If IE was really up to snuff (the more I test against IE7 I can see it did not come nearly as far as I had hoped in bug fixes and support) this would mostly be a non issue. As consumer you go from site to site with different browser and plugin support - it gets tiresome. Perhaps if there really was only IE it would not matter - man I bet Ballmer dreams about that - one browser to rule them all! If their product was better perhaps, but since it is not - I don't think so Steve-o.

  2. #27
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    The problem isn't that Microsoft have integrated IE into Windows. The problem is that IE contains a number of security holes that require a major rewrite to fix (which is why Microsoft hasn't fixed them). These security holes wouldn't be a problem if it were possible to uninstall IE from your computer but unfortunately you can't uninstall it and these security holes therefore compromise your computer whether you actually use IE or not.

    Of course you can plug these security holes yourself by installing a decent firewall instead of the half firewall built into Windows and by disabling some of the functionality associated with these security holes such as activeX. To continue the car analogy, its like a car that has an odd shaped hole in the side where one of the back doors ought to be and where there is no door available to fit the hole so the best you can do is to attach something over the space in the hope it stops people getting in.

    As for W3C. All the major web browser developers are involved in the W3C. It is a democratic authority of web browser creators. Between its members they have written 99.99999999% of the browsers that anyone uses to access the web. Their members agree to the standards that the browsers that they write should implement. The problem with IE is that even after Microsoft has agreed to the standard for the web it still takes them forever to actually implement that standard due to their browser code having been patched too many times and being too tightly bound into Windows. I suspect that the problem that Microsoft has is not that they don't want to implement all the standards but that the way that the browser is so tightly integrated into Windows that they can't implement the standards without breaking windows.

    Firefox is rapidly gaining market share over IE. I have seen reports from some sites and some areas of the world where Firefox users make up over 50% of all web users. On my own site about half of those upgrading from IE6 have moved to Firefox rather than IE7 and the split is now about 1/3 each for IE6, IE7 and Firefox with Firefox having slightly more users than either of the other two. On platforms other than Windows IE's share of the market is 0% because IE only runs on Windows. Unless Microsoft make significant changes to the way IE works I expect their market share will drop to around 30% over the next few years (it probably wont fall lower than that because there are still a lot of people who don't realise that there are other ways to access the web than the big blue E on their desktop).
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  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    The people who use the internet have not delegated any decision making power to this institution.
    As Stephen said, all browser vendors actually pay dues to belong to the W3C and all do so. They claim, even Microsoft does, that they support those standards.
    Their standards mean absolutely nothing
    If you use html or css, they mean something. Tim Burners-Lee, who created the W3C and is its chairman, also created HTML and the world wide web.
    A "standard", by every definition that could be used in a law enforcement situation would by something that is accepted as the norm by the majority, which in this case happens to be Internet Explorer.
    There is no "Internet Explorer Standards" publication or committee. Although the W3C is not supported by law, it is a 'defacto' standard which, as you say, "is accepted as the norm by the majority", including Microsoft.
    I can tell you that the majority of Firefox and Opera fans running around have absolutely no clue how they could improve the browsing experience for the average user
    You say this as IEs market share is slowly dwindling while non-IE browser share is slowly increasing.
    To lots of average users I have seen, Firefox and Opera appear bloated
    Due to lack of understanding of how their memory usage calculation comes about.
    with lots of functions they don't need.
    Such as? Firefox is highly customizable. I don't recall anything on a basic FF browser, or even Opera, that isn't on IE, too.
    As a customer, I would be VERY disappointed if a browser was not installed by default on my Windows installation.
    So you prefer being offered no choice? The problem isn't even that. The problem is IEs incompatibility with the web. It doesn't bother me (I don't think) that IE is pre-installed. It bothers me more that it doesn't work with the web which makes my job harder.

  4. #29
    Bad Ass Mother F#$%^& Devious's Avatar
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    I hope Opera fails in this effort, because I want Microsoft to fail.
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  5. #30
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    Firefox is gaining popularity every day. Look at the web stat and you'll notice that. A lot of user are facing "illegal operation" problem with IE and that is one of the major reason people switch to other alternative i.e safari, firefox.

    Microsoft have to further improved on the upcoming I.E 8.0 !

  6. #31
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    *ahem* (please keep the personal and private vendettas off this thread - thank you)

  7. #32
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devious View Post
    I hope Opera fails in this effort, because I want Microsoft to fail.
    How, please do tell us, does that firstly make any sense at all, and secondly how that brings anything to the argument against IE for the reasonable suggestion that MS should bundle other browsers with its OS? Did you even read the thread?

  8. #33
    SitePoint Zealot dustbuster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    How, please do tell us, does that firstly make any sense at all, and secondly how that brings anything to the argument against IE for the reasonable suggestion that MS should bundle other browsers with its OS? Did you even read the thread?
    Presumably he believes that this is an anti-trust issue. Perhaps if Opera fails in this endeavor Microsoft will [still] have a monopoly. If they have a monopoly they can be broken up and stand to lose lots of money.


    At least that's what I read into the comment.
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  9. #34
    Brevity is greatly overrated brandaggio's Avatar
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    FWIW, MS' biggest problem is that the Bushies did not force Gates to break the company up into smaller, more reasonable, successful and agile companies. It really would have done them a favor - they just weren't sure about it all.

    I know that MS does attempt with the Zune, XBOX and likely a few other groups to move the Titanic faster and it is helping (the new Zune shows a rare polish in overall aesthetic and their timeframes seem to be shrinking by limiting needless feature creep). Question is will it be to little to late - time will tell. But business cycles down intrinsically without serious, outright, game changing innovation - otherwise it is just a commodity battle and MS has the money and resources to stay in that battle for a long time but they are at or near the end of their current business models' cycle, regardless. That is why the innovation and sensitivity they generally lack is so crucial. They need to be more (than just an OS licensor and whatever else you consider them to be today) to provide the tighter end to end consumer experience that is demanded in late 2007.

    If they would only just suck it up and use a better rendering engine, so much of the anger MS illicits would dissipate - just vanish into the night never to be seen again. We will all be watching and waiting and likely laughing (while using Opera more , and wondering why Redmond, why so weak with all this?).

    I think Microsoft can make great software...I would just like to see it. Browsers aren't a strong suit at the moment, though. That much seems clear.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    He's saying that there are a lot of security holes in IE. But, even if you don't use it, parts of IE are still in the OS that are connected directly/indrectly to things like Outlook, Word, and the like.
    Well duhhh.. its a rendering engine for anything that uses html content. Why should Microsoft limit the functionality of their applications or package components they can make fundamentally available to everyone as separate packages?

    The "internet" isn't something you connect to anymore, its something you use as a tool. There is absolutely no reason MS shouldn't be able to compete on the internet as an application, as an OS and as a tool set.

  11. #36
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    I'll throw my support behind Opera on this one. True, there are many ethical and legal question marks surrounding the issues of bundling browsers with operating systems and enforcing (or even recognizing) standards both. But you have to start somewhere.

    To put it in perspective, where would Microsoft be if not for frivolous lawsuits? It could almost be described as a law firm that sells software on the side. If you want to compete with Microsoft, you have to play hardball.

    Next, compare Opera to Firefox. Firefox has benefited greatly from publicity. It has also been politicized to an extent, many seeing it as the logical alternative to corporate behemoths.

    Opera, in contrast, has been amazingly quiet. It's an awesome browser, but it remains almost invisible to the general public.

    By filing this gutsy lawsuit, Opera is stepping into the ring, letting the world know that the latest browser battle isn't just a contest between Internet Explorer and Firefox. It's also another reminder of Microsoft's monopolism, which has indeed contributed greatly to its "success," regardless of whether or not it plays by the rules today.

    But suing Microsoft over its lack of support for standards is a brainstorm. What better way to publicize the obvious? Obvious, that is, to the geeks who never tell the public what's going on. If this lawsuit gets some publicity, it could really accomplish something, even if Opera doesn't prevail in court.

    If I was in charge of Opera, I'd hit the media and blogs hard, spreading the word and encouraging web designers to help inform the public. That would be a win-win situation for everyone.

    On another note, someone suggested that coercing Microsoft to embrace the standards would only help Microsoft. Not necessarily. First, it could take a great deal of time for Microsoft to get with the program. Second, being forced to embrace standards by a court order would be an enormous embarrassment - and a gigantic win for Opera.

    Finally, embracing other people's standards is simply not part of Microsoft's game plan. Opera would essentially be forcing Microsoft to compete, and competition is not Microsoft's forte.

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turboweb View Post
    Well duhhh..
    I was answering someone elses question. Somebody didn't understand so, if it was obvious to you, it wasn't to them.
    Why should Microsoft limit the functionality of their applications or package components they can make fundamentally available to everyone as separate packages?

    There is absolutely no reason MS shouldn't be able to compete on the internet as an application, as an OS and as a tool set.
    The problem is that many consider Microsoft to be a monopoly, or close to it. Here's an analogy. Let's say your company makes frying pans and Microsoft makes frying pans and stoves. Local department stores mostly carry Microsoft stoves but they only work with Microsoft frying pans. How do you compete with that?

    This is a monopoly issue and not necessarily a browser issue.

  13. #38
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    Opera, in contrast, has been amazingly quiet. It's an awesome browser, but it remains almost invisible to the general public.

    By filing this gutsy lawsuit, Opera is stepping into the ring, letting the world know that the latest browser battle isn't just a contest between Internet Explorer and Firefox. It's also another reminder of Microsoft's monopolism, which has indeed contributed greatly to its "success," regardless of whether or not it plays by the rules today.
    Opera should learn that a marketing department is way cheaper than a legal department then (and lord knows they have a marketing problem). But I don't think Opera's really using this suit to promote their business since that would be sleazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by geosite
    But suing Microsoft over its lack of support for standards is a brainstorm. What better way to publicize the obvious? Obvious, that is, to the geeks who never tell the public what's going on. If this lawsuit gets some publicity, it could really accomplish something, even if Opera doesn't prevail in court.
    Obvious how? The W3C isn't a legal governing body of anything, and they don't set standards, they merely make recommendations. Yes MS is a member and yes it would be nice if they implemented the ideas they helped develop, but I'm not sure it's enough to win a legal case over.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    Opera should learn that a marketing department is way cheaper than a legal department then (and lord knows they have a marketing problem).
    Microsoft's legal department has certainly stomped much of the planet into submission. Moreover, a clever marketing department can manipulate just about anything - including a lawsuit.

    But I don't think Opera's really using this suit to promote their business since that would be sleazy.
    Oh, please. Do you really think a high-tech company is going to file a lawsuit against M$ with no expectations that the lawsuit might somehow help their company?

    In the meantime, there's nothing sleazy about using a bully's tactics against the bully. If Microsoft is going to assault just about everyone who uses a computer on the planet with one bizarre lawsuit after another, why can't Opera file a lawsuit against M$?

    Obvious how? The W3C isn't a legal governing body of anything, and they don't set standards, they merely make recommendations.
    That's irrelevant. The fact is, standards exist, and life would be much better for many people if the major players followed them. That's what's obvious to those of us whose lives are closely involved with the Internet.

    Whether or not a high-tech company could or should be somehow penalized for not following standards is up to a court (and/or society) to decide. Who knows, this case could inspire better ideas. Maybe browsers will one day be required to bear labels noting the extent to which they follow standards. For example, an Opera browser might legally declare, "95% standards compliant, according to SMO; Security Rating A, according to SMO," while IE8 might say, "WARNING: 40% standards compliant, according to SMO; Security Rating D, according to SMO."

    Yes MS is a member and yes it would be nice if they implemented the ideas they helped develop, but I'm not sure it's enough to win a legal case over.
    Winning isn't everything. Merely filing the lawsuit sends out a message. What are people going to say if Opera doesn't prevail in court?...

    Well, I never expected a tiny operation like Opera to prevail over Bill Gates' stable of attorneys...but I'm sure glad someone is challenging him. Heck, I wasn't even aware of the existence of Internet standards, let alone the fact that Microsoft was thumbing its nose at them!
    If Opera did manage to win, it would obviously be a pretty smashing victory. In the meantime, you know what they say...nothing ventured, nothing gained.

  15. #40
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    Oh I meant to point out in my previous post (however I was sidetracked) that Opera are not going this lone... they are reporting to the European Committee for Interoperable Systems (ECIS). This committee is an integral part of the EU... it's likely that they'll incur no cost. This committee is funded by the EU for just such matters.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by armchaircritic View Post
    Oh I meant to point out in my previous post (however I was sidetracked) that Opera are not going this lone... they are reporting to the European Committee for Interoperable Systems (ECIS). This committee is an integral part of the EU... it's likely that they'll incur no cost. This committee is funded by the EU for just such matters.
    Good point. Having the European Union on one's side can't hurt when the target is Microsoft. That's one advantage Opera has over Firefox - and one more reason this lawsuit isn't insignificant. I suspect it will get a lot more publicity in Europe than here in the U.S.

  17. #42
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
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    Let's remember that the firts time IE was shipped (and merged with) the OS and Microsoft was penalised both in US and later in Europe for Monopoly(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._v._Microsoft). Microsoft was also forbbiden to include IE as part of the OS for a number of years, which have now concluded.

    A year or so ago, Microsoft announced that IE7 was going to be the last stand alone version, so it is not surprise they have the intention to build IE8 as part of the OS, as it was their intention from the very start, back in 1998. Why do they want to do this? I don't know, and I don't understand, but they did it 15 years ago, and now they are returning to this path. It does make you wonder about their intentions...

    This situation makes me think about various things...

    - If Microsoft was penalised for this same reason... how come that they insist on the subject?

    - I think that Opera is doing this to gain exposure and to get the web developing community by their side, which was what gave FF its popularity, but they are smart enough to use a real reason. Still, even if their reason is selfish, they have me on their side with this.

    - I think that Opera is doing this also because they have a chance of success: first, because Microsoft was alredy fined for this reason, and second, because Microsoft is an active member of W3C, and has proposed some of the implementations of the "web standards".

    The web standards may not be standards per se, and only recommendations, but as I said many times before, it annoys me tremendously that Microsoft participates, suggests, accepts, and changes, and agrees to them... but then does completely the opposite... they don't even follow what their own proposals!

    I think this is a step back for Microsoft and one of many (like Outlook's HTML interpretation, or web/Outlook security... Outlook doesn't ask you if you want to view the pictures in your messages... it just blocks them by default, and its configuration simply allows you to block or unblock, nothing else)

    In all, I think that Microsoft is taking some wrong decissions and this is just one of them.

  18. #43
    whagwan? silver trophybronze trophy akritic's Avatar
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    You're right. It will get more publicity here, although most of the newspapers have been going the way of the 'Bundle' issue rather than the web standards issue. I personally feel that the web standards issue clouds the whole suit. It's a point for the web developer community, but not really something average joe will consider. Perhaps this double edge sword is something Opera Execs decided upon, to relay their point not only to the Media but to that very community. What repercussions this will have in the US market? Perhaps none.

  19. #44
    #titanic {float:none} silver trophy
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    I am not picking at you, you just happen to say what others said before and your post is just convenient . Don't take this personal...
    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    W3C is not a democratically elected authority. The people who use the internet have not delegated any decision making power to this institution. Overwhelming majority of internet users do not know such an institution even exists. Their standards mean absolutely nothing, are not law, and never will be law. And as long as they are not law, another company cannot be forced to act upon them.

    A "standard", by every definition that could be used in a law enforcement situation would by something that is accepted as the norm by the majority, which in this case happens to be Internet Explorer.
    I think this is one of the reasons why Opera may fail. These are not standards by obligation, but recommendations. Still, Microsoft is an active participant and cooperates in those standards... on that side, it may give Opera a chance.

    Another things is that these recommendations are standards because the vast majority, if not all, of browser vendors and developers companies (including Adobe and the like, Sun, Microsoft, Opera,Mozilla, etc.) help to build them and agree to them. With such a huge acceptance, it is fair to say that the recommendations are standars as all companies follow them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    ... I can tell you that the majority of Firefox and Opera fans running around have absolutely no clue how they could improve the browsing experience for the average user, not just the hardcore one. To lots of average users I have seen, Firefox and Opera appear bloated, with lots of functions they don't need.
    I think that you are confusing matters here... as a developer, the fact is that, even if I know, improving the users browsing experience takes me ages because of all the turnarounds and hacks I need to use to make things look correctly in every browser. I may not even be paid for it, or I may not be given the time to do so... therefore, I may be forced to concentrate my efforts in just one browser, even if my heart says that I should test and make it work everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    As a customer, I would be VERY disappointed if a browser was not installed by default on my Windows installation.
    Having IE installed and shipped with your Windows OS and making IE part of the OS is a completely different concept. The first is OK, the second isn't. In the second case, I will never be able to uninstall IE if I wanted to, because my OS would not work, and other browsers that I may want to install may be even forced to use some of IE's APIs, whether they like it or not, because IE would be integrated in the OS. It is also limiting my freedom of choice because I would never be able to get rid of it.

    Hasn't it happened to you that you had a Windows error saying something like "Internet Explorer has committed an illegal action and Windows will be restarted" and you were not even using IE (for browsing the internet, that is)? It happened to me on various occasions, and sometimes I was using software that was not related to Internet Explorer at all and my IE window was closed... Somehow, IE is already "part of" the OS, and it is extremely annoying. Don't want to have IE (or any other browser) as part of the OS. It is already bad enough as it is.

  20. #45
    SitePoint Zealot Mahz's Avatar
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    This lawsuit is trying to limit the domain in which Microsoft conducts its business.

    Opera sounds like a little child complaining about standard business convention and proprietary decision. Private domain, like Microsoft Windows, has no need to be compliant with open domain "standards." Instead, a private company has the right (under conventional business definition) to weigh marginal cost and benefits like any other business.

    Windows already allows you to install other web browsers. Opera, in its own selfishness, is going against standard business practice. Calling this "anti trust" is actually disgusting. Private business, especially proprietary product, has NO RESPONSIBILITY to comply to ANY "standards" and to try and illegalize that right of business practice is criminal.

    For those arguing that IE shouldn't be a necessary component of Windows, why should it be modularized? Just because there are alternatives out there?

    Are you kidding? If you really believe this, then why limit your scope to Windows? Let's analyze every multi-faceted product that should be modularized so users can pick and choose product alternatives to attach to together. -- Of course you don't believe that! Before jumping on Microsoft for complying to standard business practice, you should go after standard business practice so everyone has to comply. Be consistent.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahz View Post
    Before jumping on Microsoft for complying to standard business practice, you should go after standard business practice so everyone has to comply.
    I feel just the opposite. The problem is that Microsoft is such a grievous offender, in so many areas and on so many levels, it's sometimes hard to know exactly what to sue it for.

    To put it in perspective, many people accuse Apple of being more "proprietary" than Microsoft and selling over-priced computers. But even if that's true, there are two crucial differences:

    1. Mac's work.

    2. As far as I know, Apple isn't up to its eyeballs in illegal or unethical activities.

    Moreover, if Opera won its suit, there would be massive fallout. If Microsoft was somehow forced to follow the standards, other companies would presumably be under similar pressure.

    As I mentioned earlier, I am in some agreement with those who say these standards shouldn't be enforced by law. In other words, it shouldn't be illegal to ignore the standards. Nevertheless, I think it would be a tremendous boon if the major players did adhere to the standards more closely.

    A compromise I suggested earlier is to require browsers to carry labels that declare somehow declare how closely they adhere to standards. This label could perhaps be linked to a website that offers information about browsers, standards and related topics. I think think this could be a tremendous service.

  22. #47
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    It sounds like IE8 will only run on Vista and Vienna and Microsoft's sales of XP separate from a computer has gone through the roof since computers started shipping with Vista (as people want to swap back to an operating system that will actually run the software that they have). If that is the case then the number of people actually able to run IE8 will be such a small percentage as to make that browser irrelevant.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    It sounds like IE8 will only run on Vista and Vienna and Microsoft's sales of XP separate from a computer has gone through the roof since computers started shipping with Vista (as people want to swap back to an operating system that will actually run the software that they have). If that is the case then the number of people actually able to run IE8 will be such a small percentage as to make that browser irrelevant.
    Wow, that's an amazing tip. Won't it be embarrassing if Microsoft customers increasingly backgrade from both IE7 and IE8 to IE6?!

    Perhaps instead of beginning development of IE9, the folks at Microsoft will simply work on improving IE6.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahz View Post
    This lawsuit is trying to limit the domain in which Microsoft conducts its business.
    First, this is not a lawsuit but an attachment to the European Union's overall complaint against Microsoft as a monopoly. It is illegal in many countries for one company to dominate a business that excludes others without being regulated. The EU is trying to tell MS what it must do to do business in Europe.
    Opera sounds like a little child complaining about standard business convention
    Being a monopoly is not 'standard business practice'. Again, this is the EU which is investigating an overall complaint against Microsoft and this is only an addition to that.
    Windows already allows you to install other web browsers.
    But if you want your browser to work with their software, or if you want their software to work with their browser, you must follow Microsoft's plans or buy use their software to the exclusion of others. This is anti-competitive.
    Calling this "anti trust" is actually disgusting.
    The EU has that overall investigation.
    If you really believe this, then why limit your scope to Windows?
    See AT&T circa 1970s? See Standard Oil.
    Before jumping on Microsoft for complying to standard business practice
    Hence the EUs complaint and investigation.

    Let us not forget that the US Justice Department and several States also had court cases against MS over this same thing for years, since about 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahz View Post
    Private domain, like Microsoft Windows, has no need to be compliant with open domain "standards."
    Sorry to disagree with you for the reason that Microsoft participates, helps to create and agrees, even in public, with those standards but then Microsoft doesn't implement them. If Microsoft didn't actively participate in the creation and development of those standards, or recommendations, whatever you prefer, I would have agreed with you. I would have still thought that it would have been an unwise business decissions, though. But that's a completely different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahz View Post
    Windows already allows you to install other web browsers. Opera, in its own selfishness, is going against standard business practice. Calling this "anti trust" is actually disgusting.
    It seems that not everybody thinks like you. Microsoft has already be fined and penalised twice for this very same reason: Once in US and another in Europe, two years later.
    You are missing the point, though. It is not a question of being able to install other browsers, but of integrating IE in the OS and how it limits your ability to choose, not only the browser you want to use but simply if you don't want to have IE in your system at all. If IE is integrated in the OS (and I would say that it is somehow already integrated), you will not be able to uninstall it. While this may look like it is not important, I think it is for many reasons that could go as far as how other browsers will be installed in Windows, as they will depend on some of IE's dlls and hence not being independent at all.

    Same thing could be said for Windows Media Player and other software.


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