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  1. #1
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    Exclamation Opera Software Files Anti-Trust Complaint Against Microsoft

    I didn't know where to post this, given that there are a number of valid topics that can be discussed within this particular thread, so I've decided to stick it under "General Chat" since it has the potential for members to have multiple discussions at once.

    Now, I'm going to lay down a few basic ground rules. Not because I'm a staff member, but because this is my thread, and as I make every effort to respect all of you and your views, I am asking you do the same likewise.

    So here we go.

    • You may talk about various problems Microsoft has within the industry, but you cannot start a personal crusade to villanize the company. I already know how much some of you hate the 800 pound Redmond gorilla, so you don't need to tell me again (in other words, no flaming or trolling).
    • Be courteous to one another with your replies. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything at all. I don't want to see this thread get locked because someone decided to let their vendetta get the better of them yet again.
    • Try to stay on topic. By on topic I mean specifically what is mentioned in the article I'm linking to. If it's not contained in the article, chances are it's not relevant, so start your own thread (but feel free to link to this one of course - I'll even link back to that thread if you PM me with the link to the related thread you started so that those who feel the need to talk about related yet off-topic issues can do so in the proper place).
    • Don't forget to follow all the regular forum rules. They're there for a reason.
    That is all.

    Now on to the article...

    Quote Originally Posted by Opera Software
    Opera Software ASA, the only company that can put the Web on any device, filed a complaint with the European Commission yesterday which is aimed at giving consumers a genuine choice of Web browsers.

    The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards. Opera has requested the Commission to take the necessary actions to compel Microsoft to give consumers a real choice and to support open Web standards in Internet Explorer.
    http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

    You may also find this to be an interesting read as well:
    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...wser_wars.html

  2. #2
    SitePoint Addict MrBaseball34's Avatar
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    Well, let's hope they have deep pockets to follow up on this.
    MrBaseball34
    Hook'Em Horns!

  3. #3
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy bluedreamer's Avatar
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    That's an interesting follow-on to the European Court's decision about Windows Media Player. As they ruled, tying apps into an operating system stifles innovation, and we all know that stifiling innovation has held back progress on the web.

    It will be interesting to see a response from Redmond (if any!).

  4. #4
    SitePoint Addict avstu's Avatar
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    I personally think Microsoft have the right to put IE on there operating system just like Apple Mac would with theres.

    Microsoft could be funny and completely ban the use of other browsers im sure if your on xp.

    The fact is you wouldnt see some ferrari wheels on a lamborgini because they look better would you? Doesnt mean Ferrari are going to kick up a fuss about it.

  5. #5
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    @avstu: I don't think it's a question of shipping IE with Windows, it's an issue of making (parts of) IE an integral part of Windows. You can't uninstall IE completely, because parts of it used in the Windows Explorer IIRC.

    Safari is just a browser that's shipped with OS X. AFAIK, you can still run OS X if you uninstall Safari.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  6. #6
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    That you can't actually uninstall that security hole often known as Internet Explorer from Windows is probably one of the most annoying things about Windows.

    To take AVSTUs analogy - Microsoft have welded the Ferrari wheels onto your lamborgini so that you can't take them off.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  7. #7
    SitePoint Enthusiast traxxas's Avatar
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    The important part of the suit is 'hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards'. That is what real meat, and I hope will force MSFT to get in line with standards and help developers.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard cpvr's Avatar
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    I just read it on the yahoo news as well. I wonder what the outcome will be.
    Love pets? Why not discuss virtual pets?
    Contact me on Twitter @cpvr

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Microsoft sued over IE non-standard compliance

    Opera sues Microsoft!

    geosite brought this up in another thread but I think it's worthy of its own.

  10. #10
    Brevity is greatly overrated brandaggio's Avatar
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    For All You Opera Heads

    http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/msft/
    Opera files complaint — an open letter to the Web community

    Over the years I have been an active participant in the ongoing fight for open and interoperable Web standards. I have always opposed those who would force proprietary technologies where open alternatives, often superior, exist. From 1994, I worked at CERN and W3C to help make sure there were good specifications for the Web. In 1999, I joined Opera to make sure there was at least one browser that implemented those specifications right. We have worked hard to do that. Unfortunately Microsoft's Internet Explorer, the biggest browser of all, did not.

    Today we have taken a stand. Opera has filed a formal complaint with the European Commission to force Microsoft to support open Web standards in its Web browser, Internet Explorer. We believe that Microsoft has harmed Web standards by refusing to support them; Microsoft often participates in creating Web standards, promoting them, and even promising to implement them. Despite their talent, however, they refuse to support Web standards correctly. For example, Internet Explorer is the only modern Web browser that does not support Acid2.

    Opera has also requested that Microsoft frees Internet Explorer from the Windows platform. We feel that they have used their market dominating position to limit a genuine choice of browsers on the Web for their own commercial gain.

    The time for action is now. The Web browser is the most important application for most of us. Developers and designers are creating more powerful Web sites and applications. But because Internet Explorer doesn't implement open and fully-developed Web standards, the work is hard and frustrating. Web designers are forced to spend time working around IE bugs rather than doing what inspires them. We seek no money from Microsoft. We would rather see Microsoft put their considerable talent and resources to work for the Web community.

    To those of you who build and shape the sites and services we use everyday — and who will create those in the future — I ask for your support. You will be the ones who ultimately benefit by having a Web that works seamlessly and effortlessly across devices, browsers and is equally open to everyone. That new day is just over the horizon, and by working together, we will awaken to that dawn.

    Thank you.
    H&#229;kon Wium Lie
    Chief Technology Officer, Opera Software
    2007-12-13
    Also interesting that a clearly non communist, non hippie, non Stallman, non anti-whatever is coming out saying it like it is. Monopoly is not competition and if you can't play fair you should not be allowed to play at all IMO.

    Does Mr. Lie have tin foil on his head? Puhleeeze! Go watch the Factor and continue to believe in the fiction that is a our quasi free market. Seems the American motto of late is, "I will do what I what, when I want, because I can". Can't help but feel this is hurting the rest of the world's perception of the US. MS can make an operating system but not a standalone standards compliant browser? Come on now - we all know they could/can - internal business concerns that told them NOT to do it fully, won out - that is painfully obvious.

    Businesses of all shapes and sizes have been getting screwed by MS' deliberate attempts to thwart standards and create divergent platforms since day one (how many hours have we all collectively wasted dealing with IE specific bugs and exploits) - have they had proprietary extensions that made it into that standard - yes - but that is not how they wish they could have played it. Status quo ain't so acceptable anymore Bill.

  11. #11
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    From ComputerWorld
    "Microsoft either fails to implement industry-standard accepted open practices or implements them in a manner that is not faithful to the standard by adding undisclosed proprietary extensions," ECIS' Thomas Vinje, the group's legal counsel, charged in a separate statement.

    Web developers have been making the same case individually. In reaction to posts placed on the official IE blog, developers have blasted Microsoft for not properly supporting standards in the current IE 7, and not spelling out what standards will be supported in the upcoming IE 8.

  12. #12
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    That you can't actually uninstall that security hole often known as Internet Explorer from Windows is probably one of the most annoying things about Windows.

    To take AVSTUs analogy - Microsoft have welded the Ferrari wheels onto your lamborgini so that you can't take them off.
    Are you saying that Internet Explorer can compromise your security even if you don't use it? I wasn't aware of that and find it hard to believe. Can you give me a link to some proof because I would like to read up on it.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    He's saying that there are a lot of security holes in IE. But, even if you don't use it, parts of IE are still in the OS that are connected directly/indrectly to things like Outlook, Word, and the like.

  14. #14
    Put your best practices away. The New Guy's Avatar
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    This is just rabble rousing. Opera is trying to get standards people on their side. What is "standard" is too ambiguous and would set a terrible precedent. Think of the reverse, Opera invents some revolutionary new way of using the internet and Microsoft sues them because they are not following the standards.

    Pretty pathetic really, considering FireFox and Safari have had very good success at taking market share.
    "A nerd who gets contacts
    and a trendy hair cut is still a nerd"

    - Stephen Colbert on Apple Users

  15. #15
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The New Guy View Post
    What is "standard" is too ambiguous
    No it isn't. The web standards are what the W3C says that they are. Both Opera and Microsoft are members of the W3C so both companies have been involved in setting the standard that Microsoft isn't following.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  16. #16
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    My Alfa Romeo came with a pathetic emergency tyre about half the size of a road tyre that will allow you to cripple to a garage if you get a puncture. I immediately bought a normal road wheel and carry it in the boot; sure it's inconvenient but allows me to use my beautiful car confident that if I get a puncture at an inconvenient time of night I don't have to finish my journey at 50kph and compromising my safety. Surely this is the same as using Firefox or Opera on XP or am I missing something? The Internet Explorer haters are entitled to their views and I don't use it myself however I think it is unreasonable to dictate to any company what they should or shouldn't do with their products. Let's face it without the ease that Windows has bought to computing for the average person in the street; the internet would be a very different place.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The few who learn by observation.
    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    @mobyme: To make the analogy more similar, what if you weren't able to drive your Alfa Romeo if you removed the donut spare? You could get a full-size spare, but the original donut spare would have to be in the boot, or the car wouldn't start.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  18. #18
    Design Your Site Team bronze trophy Erik J's Avatar
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    I say it is more like MS has permanented a gps navigator into the car and sort of integrated it with the steering system. And you are not allowed into the MS garage getting the regular service without using it. And other developer has to coop with the maps fitting it is not standard.

    MS didn't invent the gps there were other fabricats. A standard-map complient gps would not make it more diffucult for MS to take the leed, if they want, in developing maps. On the contrary I should say.


    I stop here not to get off topic.

  19. #19
    SitePoint Author silver trophybronze trophy

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    FYI, Kevin has posted Opera’s Antitrust Complaint: Microsoft Must Support Standards on SitePoint Blogs, and Chris Mills from Opera Sofware has responded to some of the comments.
    Birnam wood is come to Dunsinane

  20. #20
    In memoriam gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy Dan Schulz's Avatar
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    So I saw. I was going to reply to Rocky's comment at the time, but thought better of it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by The New Guy View Post
    Think of the reverse, Opera invents some revolutionary new way of using the internet and Microsoft sues them because they are not following the standards.
    Nobody has problem with inventing new techniques or method, the problem lies in not supporting the current standards. This applies specially if you are a dominant player in the industry.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Wizard drhowarddrfine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobyme View Post
    Let's face it without the ease that Windows has bought to computing for the average person in the street; the internet would be a very different place.
    The ease of using the internet has little to do with the operating system you use. It is more reliant on the browser and not the OS.

  23. #23
    Brevity is greatly overrated brandaggio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo View Post
    @mobyme: To make the analogy more similar, what if you weren't able to drive your Alfa Romeo if you removed the donut spare? You could get a full-size spare, but the original donut spare would have to be in the boot, or the car wouldn't start.
    I would think the engineers of the "car" that can't run without a part most every other "car" can run without, are extremely poor engineers, very shortsighted, or more importantly so forced by the hand of the business to make nefarious, questionable decisions that they rarely make a good one - good decisions and implementations are not the norm.

    It is Opera's own CTO who speaks the language of some of the people who get the fanboi moniker around - I will leave it at that but I would hope a lot you will re-evaluate how you percieve the market place and where people stand. People who believe in choice and better software are not commies - we actually really believe in choice - rather than just posturing about it! For those of you who don't get this, See the full quote from Opera's Mr. Lie above or the partial I placed below my post here.

    The time for action is now. The Web browser is the most important application for most of us. Developers and designers are creating more powerful Web sites and applications. But because Internet Explorer doesn't implement open and fully-developed Web standards, the work is hard and frustrating. Web designers are forced to spend time working around IE bugs rather than doing what inspires them. We seek no money from Microsoft. We would rather see Microsoft put their considerable talent and resources to work for the Web community.

    To those of you who build and shape the sites and services we use everyday — and who will create those in the future — I ask for your support. You will be the ones who ultimately benefit by having a Web that works seamlessly and effortlessly across devices, browsers and is equally open to everyone. That new day is just over the horizon, and by working together, we will awaken to that dawn.

    Thank you.
    H&#229;kon Wium Lie
    Chief Technology Officer, Opera Software
    2007-12-13

  24. #24
    I hate Spammers mobyme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    The ease of using the internet has little to do with the operating system you use. It is more reliant on the browser and not the OS.
    Your right of course and I stated my case badly. What I should have said was the introduction of Windows made computing easier for the ordinary person and that Microsoft leveraged it's domination at that time by bundling Internet Explorer with Windows 95. I think in Britain there were very few people accept educational institutions accessing the Internet prior to this. All of this is a personal opinion and I don't have a single fact to support it.
    There are three kinds of men:
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    The few who learn by observation.
    The rest of us have to pee on the electric fence.

  25. #25
    SitePoint Addict
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    I'm a Firefox user myself and can't really stand IE, but...

    W3C is not a democratically elected authority. The people who use the internet have not delegated any decision making power to this institution. Overwhelming majority of internet users do not know such an institution even exists. Their standards mean absolutely nothing, are not law, and never will be law. And as long as they are not law, another company cannot be forced to act upon them.

    A "standard", by every definition that could be used in a law enforcement situation would by something that is accepted as the norm by the majority, which in this case happens to be Internet Explorer.

    If your product is so much better than Internet Explorer, it should be able to gain market share by itself. If it doesn't, you have not understood the needs of your customers correctly, and I can tell you that the majority of Firefox and Opera fans running around have absolutely no clue how they could improve the browsing experience for the average user, not just the hardcore one. To lots of average users I have seen, Firefox and Opera appear bloated, with lots of functions they don't need.

    As a customer, I would be VERY disappointed if a browser was not installed by default on my Windows installation.


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