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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee View Post
    There is no such thing as over optimizing. That's just another way of saying writing for the search engines and not for humans.
    "There is no such thing as over optimizing. That's just another way of saying" ... so there IS such a thing as over-optimising what ever words you use to describe it?

    So it would be good advice to tell someone to write for users not the search engines and don't use the keyword phrase too much because that might hurt you, trouble is no one actually knows how much is too much, use common sense.

    I really do get what you're saying Stymiee, thing is I'm waaaay past the stage of needing to be told to cater to my visitors. I do that very well, now I want to give myself/my clients an edge in the ongoing battle for high rankings on the search engines.

    Hey... I didn't invent the search engines, I'm just using the tools that are available to me just the exact same way that horse racers can't control the weather but they sure as hell factor it into their calculations when trying to win a race. I'm in business, I don't create websites purely for the fun of the visitors.

    You might as well tell a shop owner not to worry about the shop front or the shop's location, just stock nice stuff inside and the people will come. Not if they don't know about they won't.........

  2. #77
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    You've missed the point. But I don't think there is more discuss. Everyone can walk away with their own opinions. After all, I don't think we're all targeting the same keywords.
    Last edited by stymiee; Dec 19, 2007 at 08:29.

  3. #78
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy DaveWoods's Avatar
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    Just catching up on some of my RSS feeds and Rand touches upon this issue...

    http://www.seomoz.org/blog/rewriting...-keyword-usage

    Particularly this part...

    The Myth of Keyword Density

    Whenever the topic of keyword usage and search engines come together, a natural tendency to use the phrase "keyword density" seems to arise. This is tragic. Keyword density is, without question, NOT a part of modern web search engine ranking algorithms for the simple reason that it provides far worse results than many other, more advanced methods of keyword analysis. Rather than cover this logical fallacy in depth in this guide, I'll simply reference Dr. Edel Garcia's seminal work on the topic - The Keyword Density of Non-Sense.

    The notion of keyword density values predates all commercial search engines and the Internet and can hardly be considered an IR concept. What is worse, KD plays no role on how commercial search engines process text, index documents, or assign weights to terms. Why then do many optimizers still believe in KD values? The answer is simple: misinformation.

    If two documents, D1 and D2, consist of 1000 terms (l = 1000) and repeat a term 20 times (tf = 20), then a keyword density analyzer will tell you that for both documents KD = 20/1000 = 0.020 (or 2&#37 for that term. Identical values are obtained when tf = 10 and l = 500. Evidently, a keyword density analyzer does not establish which document is more relevant. A density analysis or KD ratio tells us nothing about:

    the relative distance between keywords in documents (proximity)
    where in a document the terms occur (distribution)
    the co-citation frequency between terms (co-occurrence)
    the main theme, topic, and sub-topics (on-topic issues) of the documents

    Thus, KD is divorced from content quality, semantics, and relevancy.
    Whilst this doesn't really touch upon anything that hasn't already been mentioned here, I think it serves as a good summary.

  4. #79
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    Interesting article, thanks for posting it. It doesn't actually prove a damn thing though except that two pages with different numbers of words can have the same keyword density . So what.

    A keyword density of over 10% tells me that someone is trying to 'game' the search engines. It most likely tells the search engines the same thing. All the other stuff it mentions is pure speculation unless the guy has inside knowledge of Google's algorithm.

    If you don't think keyword density is a factor it's easy to test for. Just spam a page to bits with your keyword phrase and see what happens. My prediction is that Google will not consider it as relevant because of a lower usability factor and your ranking will suffer.

    Keyword density may not exist in terms of there being a perfect density that convinces Google that your page is the nuts and better than anyone else's, but I have never argued that there was. All along I've been saying that there is a maximum acceptable density, that's all. I simply try not to exceed it, I don't aim for it.
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  5. #80
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Dr. Garcia's background in information retrieval and his mathematical proofs should debunk any notion that keyword density can be used to help "optimize" a page for better rankings.
    Good stuff, thanks for posting Dave.

  6. #81
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    You guys are all right, you design accessible well structured sites using semantic markup and focusing on the user.

    I just feel sorry for the poor saps who you keep telling that there's no maximum keyword density, it's not even an issue, and who then run the risk of keyword stuffing penalties.

    Someone gonna tell me you can't get penalised for keyword stuffing?
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  7. #82
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Here's another quote, this time it's Matt Cutts on 'keyword density', very similar to SEOmoz:
    Notice what I did with keywords. I carefully chose keywords for the title and the url (note that I used “change” in the url and “changing” in the title). The categories on my post (”How to” and “Linux”) give me a subtle way to mention Linux again, and include a couple extra ways that someone might do a search–lots of user type “how to (do what they want to do).” I thought about the words that a user would type in when looking for an answer to their question, and tried to include those words in the article. I also tried to think of a few word variations and included them where they made sense (file vs. files, bash and bashrc, Firefox and Mozilla, etc.). I’m targetting a long-tail concept where someone will be typing several words, so I’m probably in a space where on-page keywords are enough to rank pretty well. I don’t need anchor-text for “linux default printer” or similar phrases; in the on-page space, I’d recommend thinking more about words and variants (the “long-tail”) and thinking less about keyword density or repeating phrases.
    Notice how Matt is reconfirming that writing for the user and writing good content is an important part of SEO. We all know it but it's nice hear it from him every now and then as well.

    Why 'keyword density' is irrelevant to increase ranking, was best explained by Dr. Edel Garcia in the quote earlier. If anyone didn't get it, just read it one more time, and then one more time, and then let it sink in

  8. #83
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    Someone gonna tell me you can't get penalised for keyword stuffing?
    They may but they also may not. Stuffed pages suck and get no links and thus they won't rank well regardless of any penalties.

  9. #84
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    Everyone should steer clear of keyword stuffing, it is bad on a lot of counts. First of all the pages are no fun to read so no one will stick around your site and search engines are built smart enough to know when every other word is a keyword.

  10. #85
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    I think that as soon as you hear the phrase 'keyword density' you stop thinking and start reciting.

    I've never spent so long typing and been so clearly misunderstood. It doesn't matter though because I guess I've heard every counter argument there is and that was the point of discussing it so thanks for your time.

    P.S For the sake of any future discussions where my credibility might matter, please take me out the box labeled 'keyword density idiot', I don't deserve to be in there.
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    Here's another quote, this time it's Matt Cutts on 'keyword density', very similar to SEOmoz:
    Notice how Matt is reconfirming that writing for the user and writing good content is an important part of SEO. We all know it but it's nice hear it from him every now and then as well.

    Why 'keyword density' is irrelevant to increase ranking, was best explained by Dr. Edel Garcia in the quote earlier. If anyone didn't get it, just read it one more time, and then one more time, and then let it sink in
    Garcia's take is an opinion, I'll give it as much time as all the other opinions I've heard on the subject.

    Since you've obviously not read most of the recent threads, you'll have missed the part were we extensively covered writing for the user but thanks for your contribution nevertheless. Sorry if that sounded patronising (Patronise: to talk down to someone), did that sink in?

    You know what's ironic about your Matt Cutts quote? If a nOOb came on here and said things like "subtle way to mention Linux again" or "tried to include those words in the article" or "carefully chose keywords", they'd be lambasted for 'gaming' the search engines and told to write for the user. He'd try to explain that he's doing that but in a smart way and you'd ignore him and trot out the same old lines about focusing on content for humans.....
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
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  12. #87
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by talia0803 View Post
    Everyone should steer clear of keyword stuffing, it is bad on a lot of counts.
    Definitely. I think if many stopped thinking about keyword stuffing (or the myth about keyword density), and approached HTML as a text document supposed to be read by end users, alot of misunderstandings would be gone.

  13. #88
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy hooperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMcClure View Post
    P.S For the sake of any future discussions where my credibility might matter, please take me out the box labeled 'keyword density idiot', I don't deserve to be in there.
    Off Topic:

    Unbelievably, I just found this on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzmf4jjLQc

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    Off Topic:

    Unbelievably, I just found this on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzmf4jjLQc
    You totally just made that video!

  15. #90
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy DaveWoods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooperman View Post
    Off Topic:

    Unbelievably, I just found this on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzmf4jjLQc

  16. #91
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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  17. #92
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    I've been reading this thread all day long and one "phrase" that every "guru" is using is "high quality content". What does it mean? Can one of you define what it means to write "high quality content". Maybe that will help the reader. What is of "high quality" in the content we write?
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  18. #93
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    'Quality' is one of those terms which tries to measure something (for example used by search engines to help find relevant content ). One way to determine this is to let the web users be the judges. This is one of the basic principles behind the Google search engine. It's based on the facts that good content gets read more, linked to more, searched by more, basically used more. 'Quality' is the reason many of use daily visit SP instead of 'l33tF0rums.com'. "High Quality Content' in this respect is measured by the group, so it's not a mechanical function you can just implement imho.

  19. #94
    SitePoint Zealot jvr's Avatar
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    Hi,
    The ideal keyword density is 2-4%. That's the standard, just be sure that you avoid keyword stuffing or too much use of keywords.

  20. #95
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvr View Post
    Hi,
    The ideal keyword density is 2-4%. That's the standard, just be sure that you avoid keyword stuffing or too much use of keywords.
    Um, you may want to re-read this thread.....

  21. #96
    SitePoint Zealot jvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee View Post
    Um, you may want to re-read this thread.....
    why re-read? I just post a comment regarding keyword density....

  22. #97
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    So, if quality is what humans think of your content, how do you create 'quality' that the engines would perceive as such, considering keyword density if of no issue? Another words, if you have "quality" content and so does your competition what options do you have, that you can control, to stand apart?
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  23. #98
    He's No Good To Me Dead silver trophybronze trophy stymiee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvr View Post
    why re-read? I just post a comment regarding keyword density....
    Because what you just said contradicts what's been said in this thread. That's why.

  24. #99
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junjun View Post
    One way to determine this is to let the web users be the judges. This is one of the basic principles behind the Google search engine. It's based on the facts that good content gets read more, linked to more, searched by more, basically used more..
    Quote Originally Posted by LauraDC View Post
    So, if quality is what humans think of your content, how do you create 'quality' that the engines would perceive as such, considering keyword density if of no issue?
    I don't want to sound too generic, but if you create content that humans want to read, the search engines will follow.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by stymiee View Post
    Because what you just said contradicts what's been said in this thread. That's why.
    Actually it doesn't, it just contradicts you.

    It falls within what seems like a realistic range for me, it's in the right ball park.

    However, he should have read the thread properly, that kind of laziness bugs the crap out of me.
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